1 00:00:00,750 --> 00:00:06,450 Casting 2.0 for April 23 2021, Episode 34 it's all hands on 2 00:00:06,450 --> 00:00:15,240 deck. Like swaby. Get up there in the rigging. everybody. 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,650 Welcome to the weekly board meeting for podcasters point oh 4 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:23,580 podcast index.org, where we discuss everything that's going 5 00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:27,900 on around the big movement, the revolution in podcasting. I'm 6 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:31,980 Adam curry in Austin, Texas. And in Alabama, the man who has a 7 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:35,190 head for Hydra and a body for bodybuilding. Ladies and 8 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:35,640 gentlemen. 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,610 I always try to figure out what you're going to lead with. I put 10 00:00:41,970 --> 00:00:45,990 what the show title is going to be. I got I just knew you were 11 00:00:45,990 --> 00:00:48,090 going to do checking all the boxes. 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,800 Checking all the boxes. Yeah. Wow, I didn't even think of 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,120 that. the check 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:55,530 box that broke the world. 15 00:00:56,429 --> 00:00:58,439 The check box that busted stuff. 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:00:59,340 Yeah, 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,590 I think that the show covers more than the mistakes of mere 18 00:01:04,590 --> 00:01:10,740 small competitors. Wouldn't want to see the fun to seem too petty 19 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:16,290 or anything like that. So yeah, yeah, it's a jam packed show 20 00:01:16,290 --> 00:01:19,650 today a lot to talk about. We also have special guests 21 00:01:19,650 --> 00:01:26,130 stopping by we've got the co founders of captivate.fm mark 22 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:30,060 and Kieran will be talking to them and in a bit. But while 23 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:35,520 Dave, somehow I have the feeling that about a year ago, maybe a 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,000 little under a year ago, you and I were talking and we're saying, 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,030 you know, what is the what is the apple decided to turn stuff 26 00:01:42,030 --> 00:01:46,050 off for, you know, seems like a week kind of thing in the chain. 27 00:01:46,050 --> 00:01:49,860 And no one's really ever looked at it. And we decided to build 28 00:01:49,860 --> 00:01:54,300 this thing with two missions. One is to preserve podcasting as 29 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,980 a platform for free speech, which you have to actually it 30 00:01:58,980 --> 00:02:03,570 has to work to actually be able to have free speech flowing 31 00:02:03,570 --> 00:02:06,930 through it or any speech, and also retool as a platform of 32 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:11,130 value for all parties involved. Part one turned out to be pretty 33 00:02:11,130 --> 00:02:14,040 visionary that, that we saw that something could happen and 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:14,850 something did. 35 00:02:15,990 --> 00:02:20,790 Yeah. I mean, so that's, that's the real, you know, burning 36 00:02:20,790 --> 00:02:21,630 question is, 37 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:22,560 what happened? Is 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,290 it? Is it on purpose? Well, to me, it says like, is it on 39 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:29,130 purpose? Or it? You know, it all boils down to is it is it 40 00:02:29,130 --> 00:02:32,910 malicious? Or is it ignorant, like or incompetence? Okay, 41 00:02:33,180 --> 00:02:36,150 well, that that's the way I've seen it play that's like this, 42 00:02:36,180 --> 00:02:38,910 both sides of the spectrum there, but I don't, I really 43 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:42,270 just don't think it's either. I think it's a middle. I think 44 00:02:42,270 --> 00:02:44,910 it's the middle of the road issue. And I mean, just for 45 00:02:44,910 --> 00:02:47,160 clarity, what you know, what we're talking about, is that, 46 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,880 oh, my god, you're a good podcaster. Well done. Well 47 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:51,360 played. 48 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:57,000 Thank you. Thank you. I'll take that. The the issue here is that 49 00:02:57,090 --> 00:03:00,750 Apple is Apple put that checkbox on the new podcast or connect 50 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:06,750 dashboard. And the checkbox says, do you want to be listed 51 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:11,400 or some version of this? Do you want to be listed in the in the 52 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,980 API in the apple, iTunes, whatever you call it? 53 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:15,990 Well, that's not what it says. I think it says Do you want your 54 00:03:15,990 --> 00:03:17,670 feed to be publicly available? 55 00:03:18,030 --> 00:03:19,530 That's okay. That's a little 56 00:03:19,530 --> 00:03:21,750 different. That's a little different than API. 57 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:27,480 Okay, so do you want your feed to be publicly available? And if 58 00:03:27,540 --> 00:03:30,570 so, then, which seems like a straightforward thing? Do you? 59 00:03:30,690 --> 00:03:34,470 Do you want to be listed? Do you want your Feed URL to be given 60 00:03:34,470 --> 00:03:36,330 out in public API request? 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,300 Again, I sound like, again, no, that's not what a podcaster 62 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:45,030 thinks a podcaster has no idea about an API. 63 00:03:46,050 --> 00:03:48,750 No, Agreed. Agreed. I'm just talking about on a tech level. 64 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:52,710 Okay. No, okay. Well, it but it words matter, you know, so what 65 00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:57,210 were they really communicating? Did they mean publicly so that 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,710 you can get on the apple podcast app? Yeah, that's the part that 67 00:04:01,710 --> 00:04:04,200 was not explained this, like, what does that actually mean? 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,020 What is publicly available? I don't know what that means. 69 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:11,070 Yeah, I got no idea. So like, from a tech perspective, though, 70 00:04:11,070 --> 00:04:13,710 you can make sense out of that. Like, you can say, Okay, well, 71 00:04:13,710 --> 00:04:16,350 this is, this is what they made. And especially after it breaks, 72 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:17,910 you can say, Oh, that's what that meant. 73 00:04:17,940 --> 00:04:21,210 Yeah, that's easier. We still but that part, we still haven't 74 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:22,530 figured out which is interesting. 75 00:04:22,950 --> 00:04:26,310 Well, that's what was gonna say. But, you know, it makes sense 76 00:04:26,310 --> 00:04:29,550 when you read it to a tech to a tech guy. But then what we 77 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:32,160 didn't know was what they actually build was like, 78 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,540 essentially a magic eight ball where you check, you check the 79 00:04:36,540 --> 00:04:40,050 box, and then you shake that shit up. That's when you look at 80 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:43,680 it and see what to say try again later. Yeah, maybe? 81 00:04:43,710 --> 00:04:49,980 Yeah. Perhaps perhaps. Right. seems likely. Yes, he's 82 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:52,980 likely. I mean, like, that's essentially what they did. And I 83 00:04:52,980 --> 00:05:01,650 don't. To me, what I think is that is neither competence, nor 84 00:05:01,650 --> 00:05:04,350 on purpose, they're not turning the API off, they're not doing 85 00:05:04,410 --> 00:05:10,470 anything like that. I think the real sort of, I think it was 86 00:05:10,470 --> 00:05:16,530 really going on is that they just don't care. Okay. Partially 87 00:05:16,530 --> 00:05:19,740 flesh that let me let me flesh the other. Okay. When I say they 88 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:23,040 don't care what I mean is just step back and look at the 89 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,120 context here. This is a, this is a company that makes a million 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:33,510 dollars of profit every eight minutes. The podcasting makes 91 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:38,460 has made them over the years zero money. And more than that, 92 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:42,030 it's operate, it probably appraised as somewhat of a loss. 93 00:05:42,810 --> 00:05:49,560 And so I mean, realistically, subscriptions, I think, for them 94 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:54,030 was about remaining competitive against Spotify, and everybody 95 00:05:54,030 --> 00:05:58,560 else. And I think the main another huge reason was just 96 00:05:58,590 --> 00:06:03,810 turning podcasting from a loss to a profit center. Just and I'm 97 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:07,650 not not anything big. But if you look across Apple's departmental 98 00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:10,410 Neo profit, and p&l is let's just say they have p&l for all 99 00:06:10,410 --> 00:06:13,350 their different organizations and within internally, and 100 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:18,390 you've always perpetually got Apple podcast, as this revenue 101 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:22,800 sort of sink. And I mean, it may be it's only a million dollars a 102 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,860 year that it loses. But still, I mean, a guy like Tim Cook's 103 00:06:25,860 --> 00:06:28,560 gonna look at that and be like, this is annoying. What can we do 104 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,870 to make that thing at least break even if not make something 105 00:06:31,470 --> 00:06:34,680 and the details of how it how the implementation and how it 106 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,650 turned out? I just don't think they really cared that much. 107 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:42,480 Alright, I have a similar but slightly different take one, you 108 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,600 can tell how important because we really don't know. I mean, I 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:52,950 spoke to James Boggs was it December of last year, and he 110 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:55,080 was kind of hinting that we're going to do something like 111 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,890 something exclusive, I told him was stupid. And then I literally 112 00:06:58,890 --> 00:07:01,890 said the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And he said, he 113 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:05,700 never talked to me again. But you can so but I know that they 114 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:09,060 have a pretty small team and their budgets are constrained, 115 00:07:09,060 --> 00:07:12,600 they have to go through a lot of Apple processes to get anything 116 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,960 changed anything done. It takes them a very long time. That's 117 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,740 their process. And it's a, you know, software development 118 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:21,810 process. And they have a hardware side that goes along 119 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:24,570 with that. You can tell how important something is based 120 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:29,130 upon the amount of time spent on the topic. And in Tim Cook's, 121 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:32,790 Tom Collins, as I like to call him in his in his little walk 122 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:35,220 and talk there. Which by the way, I'd like to point out that 123 00:07:35,490 --> 00:07:39,270 he often would would move his hands into a praying position 124 00:07:39,450 --> 00:07:41,760 whenever he's like, and we really hope and he's always 125 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,270 praying, and he is I mean, he must literally be praying that 126 00:07:45,270 --> 00:07:47,910 something works, because if you watch him again, it's like his 127 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:50,850 hands are always going into a praying position with two hand 128 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:51,900 two palms together. 129 00:07:52,349 --> 00:07:55,529 God jobs do that. Or was is that a Tim Cook that as a Tim Cook 130 00:07:55,529 --> 00:07:55,799 thing? 131 00:07:56,190 --> 00:07:58,890 That's definitely a cook thing. Or at least, that's the thing I 132 00:07:58,890 --> 00:08:04,440 see about him. I don't think jobs at that could be wrong. So 133 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,730 we spent 90 seconds on podcasting, and how many minutes 134 00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:11,790 that you spend on the purple iPhone. I mean, come on me. 135 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:15,360 Yeah, it's rare that they had a commercial for it and 136 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,410 everything. In fact, by the time they finished off with this 137 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:22,380 little 90 seconds of podcasting, I was almost embarrassed that 138 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:26,340 they had my picture in there on the iTunes. I'd like to correct 139 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:30,780 something when they say we started with 3000 podcasts in 140 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:34,230 our in our in our index, but let's just be fair about it. I 141 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:38,310 gave that to you. Yeah, that's what you started with. And I 142 00:08:38,310 --> 00:08:40,440 remember there was some disappointment when immediately 143 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,800 they put NPR was their main feature that it had almost no 144 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,890 independent podcasts on the on the front page. And you see how 145 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:50,250 that has morphed. Over time. Even the mighty Apple could not 146 00:08:50,250 --> 00:08:55,740 keep their squeaky clean NPR PBS images, Joe Rogan just dominated 147 00:08:55,740 --> 00:09:00,630 the dominated the chart there and others. So they really have 148 00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:04,170 just moved in podcasting has driven them. I think they have 149 00:09:04,170 --> 00:09:08,610 made money indirectly off of podcasting. It just look at the 150 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:13,500 stats, you know, up until Spotify is true entry into the 151 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:17,760 market. Apple was the 800 pound gorilla, which is, you know, 152 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:20,370 makes you wonder if no one's listening on Android, but it 153 00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:24,420 doesn't matter. They definitely owned quote unquote, podcasting 154 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:28,830 and to their shareholders. When Spotify came into the market 155 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:32,970 that looked bad, and and you just can't have a competitor, 156 00:09:33,060 --> 00:09:36,690 taking away your business and owning the mindshare. Whether 157 00:09:36,690 --> 00:09:39,930 it's successful or not, is irrelevant for public companies. 158 00:09:39,930 --> 00:09:44,370 That's a big deal. That's why we saw Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook 159 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:48,450 the day before the announcement, come out and do a long interview 160 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:51,300 and and say, Oh, well, you know, we're gonna be doing this and 161 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:55,440 that and yeah, it was the audio was great. And it's even even 162 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,260 flubbed a few times and kept saying video instead of audio 163 00:09:58,260 --> 00:10:00,300 because it's just the script. It's just a process. That's that 164 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,310 runs in that boy's brain. Now, 165 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:07,080 the man man notes literally say, that piece of paper here says 166 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,490 Facebook lol. 167 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,570 So there's a number of customers, Apple always talks 168 00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:19,050 about their customers or customers. So their customers 169 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:25,320 are people who own their stuff on their boxes, mainly people, 170 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,570 app developers or their customers, and how can you tell 171 00:10:27,570 --> 00:10:30,540 that someone is a an apple customers? Because there's a 172 00:10:30,540 --> 00:10:34,560 money flow from that person to Apple? If you're an application 173 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:40,260 developer, then I believe it's nine is $1,000. Still to be an 174 00:10:40,260 --> 00:10:41,130 app developer? 175 00:10:41,460 --> 00:10:43,470 Now it's 99. a year? Yeah. Oh, it's 176 00:10:43,470 --> 00:10:46,890 99 a year? Okay. 100 bucks a year, right? Oh, I thought it 177 00:10:46,890 --> 00:10:50,250 was more what was the what if one point something was 900 or 178 00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:52,440 something, maybe if you go to the conference, you're going to 179 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,840 spend money, it doesn't matter. You're the customer. They're 180 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,960 selling you access to something and there's a relationship 181 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,870 there. There's a relationship with podcasters, as witnessed by 182 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,920 the podcaster briefing, that everyone who has a podcast 183 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:13,020 registered on on Apple received, but also because there's 184 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:16,230 existing relationships. I won't say the necessarily customers, 185 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:20,070 but I think they are the hosting companies received a briefing. 186 00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:24,060 And, you know, hosting companies do have agreements with them on 187 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,770 updating and pinging, you know, special API's and stuff. I don't 188 00:11:28,770 --> 00:11:33,300 know exactly who or how that works. But was definitely not a 189 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,480 customer is the independent podcast, app developer or 190 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,890 anybody who uses this API. Because you're paying nothing 191 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:44,850 for it, you're not a customer. So that right has never bothered 192 00:11:44,850 --> 00:11:48,780 Apple, because they they look going back to the origins of 193 00:11:48,780 --> 00:11:54,600 podcasting. When I was using my Mac drive to serve up mp3 files 194 00:11:54,690 --> 00:11:58,200 to a bunch of nutjob developers who were you know, where you 195 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,070 subscribe to feed and downloaded all all. All episodes in the 196 00:12:02,070 --> 00:12:05,160 feed right away. I mean, I was pushing so much bandwidth Apple 197 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,760 went and apparently from Steve Jobs, himself said, Yeah, just 198 00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:10,980 let's give him what he what he needs there. And we'll see how 199 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:13,380 it plays out. They have no problem with bandwidth and 200 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:20,340 storage. But you're not a customer. So you're not 201 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:24,570 represented inside the company. That's how big companies work. 202 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:28,320 You have someone representing the customer, and multiple 203 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,350 customers. So there's someone who's in charge of the hosting 204 00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:34,680 company, someone who's in charge of the podcasters, no one inside 205 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,700 of Apple is in charge of app developers, more anything, you 206 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:42,990 know, any other website or any application, any application in 207 00:12:42,990 --> 00:12:46,230 general that uses their API, so they were not represented. So 208 00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:49,860 there was no one there to say, Oh, this is gonna break stuff. 209 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:54,690 Or, hey, you just broke something. And, and that had to 210 00:12:54,690 --> 00:13:00,660 come from outside. So yeah, so So. Yeah. So we're in agreement 211 00:13:00,690 --> 00:13:05,490 on, they really don't care. If anyone is fooling themselves 212 00:13:05,490 --> 00:13:09,240 into believing that they ever care, then I'm sorry. You know, 213 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,800 that's, that's, that's the epitome of Apple fandom. You 214 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,240 can't expect them to care. 215 00:13:15,870 --> 00:13:18,780 Yeah, and that's the thing. It's not a judgement. I mean, I'm 216 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:21,690 surprised they took they left the thing untouched, as long 217 00:13:21,690 --> 00:13:24,660 as as long as they did. Right? Well, here we are. 218 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:31,200 You know, some don't know who it was posted on social media 219 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,020 yesterday that said, if you think if you think this is just 220 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:37,500 a glitch, and everything's gonna get back to normal, then I can 221 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,740 tell you, you're kidding yourself. Because, like, and I'm 222 00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:47,250 not here to say that, that necessarily, that this was, this 223 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,960 won't go that they won't try to fix it in some capacity. But the 224 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:57,000 desire to do that, where would that desire come from? Like, 225 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,350 how? Where is that desire going to originate? They get nothing 226 00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:01,920 for it, 227 00:14:01,949 --> 00:14:04,679 you're literally they are literally giving away something 228 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:05,279 for free. 229 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:09,030 Yeah, and that's not that's not in any big company's interest. 230 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:13,110 But it's especially not in Apple's interest that else and 231 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:16,440 not when I say especially not, I just mean, go back to the, they 232 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,070 make a million dollars of profit every every like freakin 10 233 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:24,510 minutes. It's not in their culture anymore to do things 234 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:31,170 that lose money. Unless there is some other externality that goes 235 00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:33,930 along with it, that gives them status, for instance, carbon 236 00:14:33,930 --> 00:14:39,120 neutral, the whole green thing. They, they make a big deal out 237 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,550 of that, and it's gonna lose them money, they're gonna 238 00:14:41,580 --> 00:14:45,180 they're going to be an expense for them to some degree, but 239 00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:49,170 they get PR out of it, they get goodwill, they get get all of 240 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:53,610 that thing and thing with with allowing thede URLs to be 241 00:14:53,610 --> 00:14:57,510 returned in podcast API results. They don't get any further at 242 00:14:57,900 --> 00:14:59,310 all they get as a competitor. 243 00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:02,880 Yeah. It's irrelevant. It's completely irrelevant. And the 244 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,640 funny thing about it to me though is that if you look what 245 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,210 happened and this is indicative of the larger problem within 246 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,070 within all of this thing is, you know, I love Justin ever 247 00:15:17,070 --> 00:15:20,730 transistor. I love those guys. But he now he's reporting back 248 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:26,010 on Twitter, saying, Oh, I heard I got a DM from an from somebody 249 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:29,130 at Apple. You know, it's like, I know a guy that knows a guy 250 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:33,690 whose mom knows this chick who's like grandpa lived down the 251 00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:35,610 street from Tim Cook and he said, it's a bug and they're 252 00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:36,810 gonna fix it. Yeah, I 253 00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:37,920 that's what I heard too. 254 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:42,329 I mean, like that is is that literally is the way the podcast 255 00:15:42,329 --> 00:15:42,989 industry works. 256 00:15:42,990 --> 00:15:45,270 Yes, exactly. You Thank you very much. 257 00:15:45,779 --> 00:15:48,089 That it's not just and James Cridland called it that, you 258 00:15:48,089 --> 00:15:50,939 know, like, it's bad comms is bad. It's bad corporate 259 00:15:50,939 --> 00:15:55,439 communication. It's, it's more than that. I mean, yes, it is. 260 00:15:55,439 --> 00:15:55,619 But 261 00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:58,860 you don't you don't have a representative within comms at 262 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:02,100 Apple for for podcast, app developers. There's no path. 263 00:16:02,250 --> 00:16:06,000 There's no file. There's no person. There's no general 264 00:16:06,030 --> 00:16:09,390 email. There's no disk. There's nothing there is nothing for 265 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:13,200 podcast app developers to never has been. So how can you expect 266 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,530 any kind of comms Apple is very simple to understand. 267 00:16:17,129 --> 00:16:20,819 Yeah. You get like in the on the other hand, why do we even have? 268 00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:25,049 It's a shame that we even have to care about this crap. Like, 269 00:16:25,199 --> 00:16:26,279 because? Well, I 270 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:31,350 think I think that just to me, that ended. That ended the 271 00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:36,990 reputation is I don't want to say there's any reputation to be 272 00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:41,430 tarnished, but people are not stupid. People who rely on now 273 00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:45,240 for a lot of podcast app developers. It's, it's a side 274 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,600 gig. It's a it's a project. Who knows, you know, this is, by the 275 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,810 way to support them. Please crank up those value sliders 276 00:16:51,810 --> 00:16:54,420 right now boost the show. Make sure you're listening on a 277 00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:58,530 podcast 2.0 value for value streaming set compatible app, 278 00:16:58,650 --> 00:17:03,450 pod friend breeze swings pod station. I like 100 SATs per 279 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:06,090 minute and I like 500 boosts whenever I think something's 280 00:17:06,090 --> 00:17:09,090 Great. So if 281 00:17:09,329 --> 00:17:10,859 that's the standard set by the father, 282 00:17:10,919 --> 00:17:17,849 yeah, that's my standard. So no, so you confuse myself. Where I 283 00:17:17,849 --> 00:17:19,979 don't even know what I was saying. Dave, I just want to get 284 00:17:19,979 --> 00:17:23,609 the message out I'm sorry, I forgot message. 285 00:17:23,670 --> 00:17:25,590 Messenger. See that messenger. See that? 286 00:17:25,589 --> 00:17:28,019 Who cares what I was talking about screw Apple boost us. 287 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,920 Show that's the show notes that entire show notes. That's the 288 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,600 podcast industry, though. I mean, like, we played this game 289 00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:43,290 with my we played this game with my dog is this big, white, 290 00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:49,590 fluffy, gray pennies. And weevil dog? Yeah, we play this game 291 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:54,330 with him wherever like his name's banjo. We're like, where 292 00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:56,370 he'll be sitting there in the living room. We're like, Where's 293 00:17:56,370 --> 00:18:00,360 banjo? Where's banjo? We can't find him. And he's sitting right 294 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,930 there. And he starts like it. You know, when you first start 295 00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:07,200 doing it. He's like, Wait, what? And he's just looking at you, 296 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,560 like all concerned. And then the more you keep doing it, he 297 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,770 starts freaking out. He's like, Guys, I'm right here, guys. 298 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,260 Because what was wrong? I'm right here. And that's like, 299 00:18:16,290 --> 00:18:19,740 that's what it felt like this with the apple stuff. Like, 300 00:18:20,550 --> 00:18:23,610 everybody's show disappeared. It's like No, it didn't the RSS 301 00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:28,650 feed is right there. It's just not an apple anymore. In the RSS 302 00:18:28,650 --> 00:18:31,080 feed the whole times. Like, guys, I'm right here. And 303 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,240 everybody's like, Where's the show? And it's like, I'm right 304 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,600 here. Oh, my God, where the show goes. The RSS feeds like I 305 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,340 didn't go anywhere. I'm right here. 306 00:18:40,110 --> 00:18:46,590 So crazy. I heard this on NBC. I think I sent myself a timecode 307 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:56,190 link. Let me see. Did I send this to myself? I was listening 308 00:18:56,190 --> 00:19:02,520 to the new media show. Okay. And I guess I didn't send that to 309 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:08,010 me. But I'm listening to the new media show. And now this of 310 00:19:08,010 --> 00:19:10,560 course, when you're doing a media show about new or show 311 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,300 about new media, and you have a day delay, you're gonna sound 312 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:19,650 silly. Wait, no. In fact, if we had taped our full show on 313 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:22,830 Wednesday with the captivate guys, who really couldn't do 314 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:25,770 they have a conflicting thing on Friday, they really couldn't 315 00:19:25,770 --> 00:19:29,010 change. So but now we want to get everybody on. So we did our 316 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:31,530 little chat with them on Wednesday. But even if we had 317 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:34,410 had the full done the full show that would have been, you know, 318 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,940 confused, we wouldn't have had all the information. And and oh, 319 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,330 gosh, I wish I had this. So Rob Greenlee of libsyn, he says, Oh, 320 00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:46,920 yeah, well, there's something there's a bug, you know, there's 321 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,670 some bug. And so our feeds not showing up and Todd goes looking 322 00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:55,410 for your shows and the sound he made. You'd like the sound he 323 00:19:55,410 --> 00:20:00,390 made. He saw that his show was was no longer listed. was 324 00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:08,910 hilarious. It was Oh, man, I love that. Yeah, it was like 325 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:16,320 that. It was really, really good. So, you know. And I think 326 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,850 that, like hope is my hope that this is a little bit of a wake 327 00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:24,390 up call even for. So there's no just talking about Todd from 328 00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:28,020 blueberry and Rob from Lipson. I mean, do they realize what's 329 00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:31,830 going on? I mean, Apple is getting into hosting. And I, and 330 00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:34,950 I don't think, at least not when I, when they recorded that show, 331 00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:38,460 I don't believe that they really, that that really dawned 332 00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:41,940 on them. Now, I don't think it matters. And maybe we move on to 333 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:45,270 that part of the of the topic here. And before we talk about 334 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:50,010 the index, specifically. There's a lot of talk, and a lot of that 335 00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:53,760 was not represented in any of these conversations is the 336 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:59,040 listener. I mean, I hear podcasters and, you know, 337 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,640 analysts like everyone saying, well, Apple will own the 338 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,050 listener, and you won't own the listener. And that is such an 339 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:12,060 arrogant thought. And I say this after, you know, being here from 340 00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:16,140 ground zero, you don't own anything, even if you have their 341 00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:20,700 email addresses and their you don't own jack shit. You don't 342 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:23,640 own the listener and get your head out of your ass thinking 343 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,690 about that the listener literally owns you. They 344 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:30,660 determine and and that goes for podcasters as well as for 345 00:21:30,660 --> 00:21:35,310 podcast apps, that it's you know, I just so I just have to 346 00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:38,640 say off the bat, I feel like we're talking very coy Lee, 347 00:21:38,970 --> 00:21:44,070 about cus about our listeners, our customers, how they behave 348 00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:48,870 what we expect them to do. I don't know. I mean, I would hope 349 00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:57,300 that Apple did some research on the concept of subscription pay 350 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:02,010 for feeds that only are on one platform. Because, you know, 351 00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:05,760 today Spotify announced that it's actually a leak, but it was 352 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,820 reported by the Wall Street Journal, Spotify is going to do 353 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:12,360 their subscription service and they won't have the apple tax. 354 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,460 Yeah, yeah. So so now they're just competing on price. And not 355 00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:21,870 even on features or what it means because the Patreon model 356 00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:27,480 I know a lot of people like Patreon, just for the the levels 357 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,860 of support. And I don't know how big the private feed business 358 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:35,280 really is. And I can see many instances, for instance, I could 359 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,490 see Andrew Horowitz, that if he had some actual stock tips paid 360 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:45,720 off, then I could see that being a you know, easily a $99 a month 361 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,910 subscription. And you know, that kind of informed information 362 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:57,240 that people want to have. If you're doing a subscription for 363 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,970 pay show, what the fuck are you giving away for free? What shit 364 00:23:02,970 --> 00:23:07,980 Are you giving away, then people are not stupid. So you know, you 365 00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:11,850 and you're wasting your time in my in my opinion, you're wasting 366 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:17,190 your time on one or the other product. And along with that 367 00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:21,270 comes speaking of owning the customer, the customer complaint 368 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:24,510 can has a complaint department. And it's going to be a very 369 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:29,850 simple process. I subscribed I expect 24 shows a year I only 370 00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:34,470 got 22 boom charge back you're done. Care. True, you're going 371 00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:38,250 to be the center podcasters will be slaves of their own making. 372 00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:40,200 Okay, so 373 00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:43,290 if you get too many chargebacks Apple is gonna kick you out. 374 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,430 That's, that's another that's another thing about this is, 375 00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:53,190 guys. It's like we hear it's like there's this collective 376 00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:58,290 amnesia that happens, where everybody just forgets things 377 00:23:58,290 --> 00:24:02,160 that that were just precious and present in your mind, like, like 378 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:08,010 a month ago. What? Did we all just forget that people are now 379 00:24:08,010 --> 00:24:12,150 beginning to leave YouTube in these places, and start their 380 00:24:12,150 --> 00:24:15,000 own websites and bring their video and all that content in 381 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,260 house? Yes. Yes. of all these monetization issues. Yes. 382 00:24:19,470 --> 00:24:23,550 And that's a no, no, it's that's not it. It is the spell of Apple 383 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:27,630 Apple spell is better than black lives matter. They are so good 384 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:30,750 at casting spells on people. And they've done it again. 385 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,550 Yeah. You have. Okay. So you have that you have Apple which 386 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:42,960 just announced in the App Store, their app store policies that 387 00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:48,570 they are going to in their, in their wording. They're going to 388 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:53,280 try to address the scammy apps problem. And so one of the ways 389 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,710 that they're going to do it is they announced that they were 390 00:24:55,710 --> 00:25:02,790 going to start reviewing pricing for apps If you have an app that 391 00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:06,690 seems like it's priced out of line with what it's what it 392 00:25:06,690 --> 00:25:11,430 should be worth, then you're going to get flagged. So if you 393 00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:14,310 know you have some little dinky app that you're charging $99, 394 00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:17,010 for, they're going to they're going to contact you and people 395 00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:20,820 have gotten contacted, apps that have been on the store for years 396 00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:24,060 at a certain price have gotten contacted by Apple and said, Are 397 00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:26,460 you sure this is worth this much money? Because this looks this 398 00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:30,900 seems odd to us? And do you not think that that exact same thing 399 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,570 is also going to happen in the app store? He was played off, 400 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,210 excuse me in the in the subscription world, he was 401 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:39,270 played off as if, oh, this is great, because you can set your 402 00:25:39,270 --> 00:25:45,270 own price. But you have to imagine that Apple's gonna have 403 00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:48,630 to have something to say about that. If you say, if you go in 404 00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:51,660 there, and you're like, man, my podcast is killer. You know, 405 00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:53,400 that's, that's $100 a month. 406 00:25:53,429 --> 00:25:57,269 No, no, I know, you just gave me an idea. I'll wait until the 407 00:25:57,269 --> 00:26:02,669 checkbox controversy is over. But when I just said, no agenda 408 00:26:02,669 --> 00:26:06,839 show with $100,000 a year, let's see what happens. Can I do that? 409 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:06,899 I 410 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:09,330 mean, I think that's 30 day free trial. 411 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:14,220 Yeah. No, no free trial, $100,000, boom, you could pay an 412 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:16,440 increment. I know, I'll do the shows. So 413 00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:21,720 this, like, okay, 414 00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:25,140 and by the way, I guarantee you, there's at least one person out 415 00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:28,590 there who will subscribe, it would be worth it just to see if 416 00:26:28,590 --> 00:26:32,400 they paid. Well, and you know, there's all kinds of I'm not 417 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,710 sure how that works. You know, I'm sure you if so what if i 418 00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:37,470 subscribe and I and I'm sick of it. Can I cancel? 419 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:44,280 Then I get I got no clue. I didn't include any of that. So 420 00:26:45,270 --> 00:26:54,060 to me, all of this description stuff. I mean, whatever. I just 421 00:26:54,060 --> 00:26:58,860 don't know, well, I think it will be mildly successful with 422 00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:01,710 people who already wanted to do something like that to begin 423 00:27:01,710 --> 00:27:06,180 with. But for smaller shows. It's just not it's just you, 424 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,150 it's just gonna be this seems like more of a thing to just 425 00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:13,260 benefit. This is essentially the wall. This is the same as the 426 00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:15,780 Wall Street Journal putting they're putting their online 427 00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:18,420 newspaper behind a paywall. You're just gonna have, you 428 00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:21,300 know, some of these big players like luminary and all these 429 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,970 guys, they're just gonna do the same thing on Apple, and nothing 430 00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:26,400 changed. It's going to be like this sideways shift. And I'm 431 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,620 going to give you a different take, which is arrogant, but I 432 00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:36,420 think it's possible. Okay. I think that that's outside of 433 00:27:36,420 --> 00:27:40,410 Spotify. But people are paying attention to what we're doing. 434 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:45,300 And everybody kind of had plans like, Yeah, when the day comes, 435 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:47,550 when we're ready, we'll just capture all that shit, we'll get 436 00:27:47,550 --> 00:27:53,070 rid of that RSS is so annoying. API's are better. You know, we 437 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:54,990 can bring that in house. We just have to we have to have the 438 00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:58,440 right things in place. I think a lot of these companies have been 439 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,160 looking at the independent to first of all the success of 440 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,970 podcasting in general. I don't think anyone's fooled by that. 441 00:28:05,970 --> 00:28:09,420 This is some big advertising Bonanza for them. It's really 442 00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:15,300 rounding errors podcasting, and it's certainly not high, 443 00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:19,170 certainly not a level advertisers who on podcasts in 444 00:28:19,170 --> 00:28:23,010 general, generalizing, I think that people are looking at at 445 00:28:23,010 --> 00:28:26,310 what we're doing is certainly Spotify is. That's the guy who 446 00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:29,790 wrote this. Who wrote that medium article. 447 00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:31,230 Oh, yeah, 448 00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:31,770 basically, 449 00:28:31,890 --> 00:28:33,180 what you mean George Orwell? Yeah, 450 00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:37,020 yeah, exactly. Orwell over there at Spotify. Who said, Well, you 451 00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:39,630 know, RSS is antiquated and we could use it when you want to 452 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:42,510 cool things. And it's, you know, it's such hogwash. And that is 453 00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:46,800 true fake news, disinformation, that everyone's kind of 454 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,240 scrambling, everyone thinks that they can capture it. And they 455 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,160 can't in and I'm delighted at what has happened. Because now 456 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,600 we have all of these we have the big we have the fangs are out. 457 00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:05,610 We've got Facebook, Apple. Not sure what Microsoft is doing. 458 00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:07,890 I'm sure they're planning something as well. You know, 459 00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:11,880 we've got Amazon. We've got Google podcasts, we've got 460 00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:16,530 Spotify, we've got these subscriptions, all of this 461 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:22,740 stuff. And RSS is just going to keep on truckin. And yet, what 462 00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:27,930 we've seen is the arrogance of the tech companies, towards 463 00:29:27,930 --> 00:29:32,730 developers. And by the way, they don't care about you. They never 464 00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:36,630 have they do not care. They will steal your code, steal your 465 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:40,260 ideas. Apple is the number one company for doing this. 466 00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:43,500 Everybody knows this shirt. They invented the term Sherlock. 467 00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:49,650 Exactly. That so they that's what they do. And then they 468 00:29:49,650 --> 00:29:52,650 patent it and do all kinds of weird stuff and make it 469 00:29:52,650 --> 00:30:01,170 complicated and that's the game but you cannot it's like The we 470 00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:05,610 already saw this fail with advertising ploy out of the gate 471 00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:08,700 for Spotify, they had to open up shows they had to, they had to 472 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:11,280 make it available on more apps, because that's just where the 473 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,390 audience is. No audience will be completely satisfied with any 474 00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:19,020 app. Everybody has a different vibe, different reasons, 475 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:23,610 different features. And just, you know, different look and 476 00:30:23,610 --> 00:30:26,880 feel all these things matter to people. It's like, it's like, 477 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,680 give your car, you know, everyone's got one. Some people 478 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,920 like a different type of car. So you're not going to be able to 479 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,600 destroy that. And I think if we done this by strategy, I'd say 480 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,110 divide and conquer is working out fantastically. Because 481 00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:44,910 that's where we are. I've got 482 00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:49,110 I've got thoughts about this. The so I'm listening to pod land 483 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:50,580 yesterday, like I do, I usually 484 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,580 did at least 3000 SATs. 485 00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:54,720 Oh, yeah, me too. 486 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,660 Until James Kirtland said discourse instead of discord. 487 00:30:57,690 --> 00:30:59,640 Then I want to take it back. 488 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,120 No, suit, you know, you get to Narnia by going through the back 489 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,180 of the wardrobe and your credit and the crazy uncle's mansion. 490 00:31:09,210 --> 00:31:13,740 That's right, you get to pod land. But jumping into James 491 00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:18,960 Cridland, dirty clothes, hamper his way to the bottom? And then 492 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,010 it puts you out in the park? 493 00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:24,270 Can I just say Can I just say as an aside, I love our community 494 00:31:24,270 --> 00:31:27,930 so much. Because, you know, we see we don't see eye to eye with 495 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,680 everybody each other on many different levels. Some just 496 00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:36,030 lifestyle, some political is all. But the code, you know, 497 00:31:36,030 --> 00:31:38,550 it's like it comes down to it. We're all doing we're all here 498 00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:42,960 for the same mission. And we can we can like each other or not, 499 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,170 we can mess with each other. We can make jokes. But what matters 500 00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:50,280 is what is what the code that's created, and the functionality 501 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,130 that we're enabling for the world. I mean that I love that 502 00:31:53,130 --> 00:31:54,240 about what we're doing. 503 00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:57,750 Yeah, it's such a beautiful libertarian community. I did 504 00:31:57,810 --> 00:32:01,200 that. And I was listening, but he was talking about Feedburner. 505 00:32:01,470 --> 00:32:04,440 And he was, you know, I can't believe that Google is like 506 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,970 resor his sin is sort of resurrecting and resto modding 507 00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:13,890 Feedburner. In thinking about that last night, and then it hit 508 00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:16,590 me that I couldn't sleep very much last night, I just had so 509 00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:16,890 much I've 510 00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:20,190 had the same day, five hours night Max, I keep waking up in 511 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:22,500 my head spinning. I'm just thinking in turn. 512 00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:25,680 Same here. And and this was long, about two o'clock in the 513 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:34,410 morning, it just hit me. I was like, okay, RSS. We have the 514 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:39,480 ecosystem that we described with with Apple, Spotify, the silos. 515 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:50,490 RSS. RSS is how the rebels fight back. RSS is is is freedom. And 516 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:56,790 Google. I think they understand that they can there's no way 517 00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:00,870 they're too far behind in the podcast space. They're not going 518 00:33:00,870 --> 00:33:03,840 to their I don't think they're they don't have any plans to do 519 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,230 any kind of subscription thing. I think their resurrection of 520 00:33:07,260 --> 00:33:12,570 Feedburner is an attempt is their response to Apple and 521 00:33:12,570 --> 00:33:16,620 Spotify doing subscriptions. There, I think they are going to 522 00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:20,010 try to compete in the podcasting space through some version 523 00:33:21,330 --> 00:33:26,100 that I was thinking about that because there's otherwise this 524 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:27,630 makes no sense. 525 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:33,600 So let's expand on subversion. What do you think? So when I 526 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,680 read that, my first take was, oh, they're going into the 527 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,490 hosting business. That was my that was my first takes like, 528 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,940 oh, you're going to add enclosures. You're going to have 529 00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:47,430 people help people manage that you're going to get them 530 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:48,780 statistics. Hello. 531 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:52,470 It's possible but say they already do all that with 532 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:54,750 Feedburner. They just don't host the con they just don't know 533 00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:56,730 hosting enclosures, but 534 00:33:56,879 --> 00:34:01,079 I don't it's a big deal. The enclosure the hosting is a big 535 00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:01,469 deal. 536 00:34:01,649 --> 00:34:03,809 No Sure. Yeah. No, you're absolutely you're absolutely 537 00:34:03,809 --> 00:34:07,649 right. But then they have to act like a podcast host and I'm just 538 00:34:07,649 --> 00:34:11,039 don't know that they get that and to me it feels more like 539 00:34:11,489 --> 00:34:18,089 they are resurrecting that to say this is Oh, open podcasting 540 00:34:18,449 --> 00:34:22,619 is still here because they get there. They get their feeds the 541 00:34:22,619 --> 00:34:26,849 same way that we get our feeds, which is they crawl for them. 542 00:34:27,179 --> 00:34:30,239 Christopher Christopher isane is out there crawling for feeds all 543 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,059 the time. We're taking feed people are emailing us batches 544 00:34:33,059 --> 00:34:36,509 of feed. Basically they they spider forum, they crawl forum, 545 00:34:36,509 --> 00:34:44,489 we do the same. Nobody goes on to nobody. They don't have a 546 00:34:44,489 --> 00:34:48,659 direct pipeline, like apple and Spotify do. They've got sort of 547 00:34:48,659 --> 00:34:51,089 this secondary pop up I know you can submit to and that's not 548 00:34:51,089 --> 00:34:55,379 what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they don't have that cachet 549 00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:59,579 in house like house brand name is associated with podcasting. 550 00:34:59,819 --> 00:35:05,099 So They just pick them up off the periphery mostly. And so to 551 00:35:05,099 --> 00:35:12,929 me, they are perfectly suited to drive RSS as, as basically Bonin 552 00:35:12,929 --> 00:35:17,429 in no way, just like they do the open web, you know, like they 553 00:35:17,459 --> 00:35:21,749 they are in spite of them. And I'm no Google fan. But in spite 554 00:35:21,779 --> 00:35:27,599 of all of the crappy things they do, their core business still 555 00:35:27,689 --> 00:35:33,209 depends on the open web existing. It depends on a 556 00:35:33,509 --> 00:35:37,379 humongous network of decentralized independent 557 00:35:37,379 --> 00:35:42,179 websites, they can search and crawl, and also then pay them 558 00:35:42,179 --> 00:35:46,619 money to advertise to be found. They can do the same thing with 559 00:35:46,619 --> 00:35:51,599 RSS, they crawl it all. And then they'll put in some sort of 560 00:35:52,109 --> 00:35:55,139 advertise, they'll just bake that into the same thing they 561 00:35:55,139 --> 00:36:01,109 already do. In that's the way they compete in that market. And 562 00:36:01,109 --> 00:36:07,469 it weakens Apple, and Spotify by strengthening the openness of 563 00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:12,869 that thing. To me that that's, that's what the whole Feedburner 564 00:36:12,869 --> 00:36:18,029 thing is about and and I hope that's true. Because, like our 565 00:36:18,029 --> 00:36:21,869 show, take, you know, this, this show right here, is not listed 566 00:36:21,869 --> 00:36:24,359 in Apple, it's not listed in Spotify. No, I went through last 567 00:36:24,359 --> 00:36:26,969 night, and I tried to, I went through every podcast app, and 568 00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:29,609 I've got about 10 of them on my phone. And I searched for 569 00:36:29,609 --> 00:36:33,929 podcasting 2.0 in every one of them. The only one it showed up 570 00:36:33,929 --> 00:36:38,339 in was pocket gas. It didn't show up in any other app, 571 00:36:38,489 --> 00:36:43,949 because most of the apps depend on on Apple and their API, and 572 00:36:43,949 --> 00:36:48,869 we're not listed with Apple and never will be. And so that tells 573 00:36:48,869 --> 00:36:55,529 me that the open RSS ecosystem, RSS is not just some markup 574 00:36:55,529 --> 00:36:59,729 language. RSS is it's an animal's a 575 00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:02,370 breed, isn't it? It's a living breathing thing. 576 00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:07,860 It's freedom is what it is. It's it's just having an RSS feed is 577 00:37:07,860 --> 00:37:10,170 no different than having your own website. 578 00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:13,710 It's funny. That's what mo no. Mo thermofax. With Adam Curry. 579 00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:16,620 He said the same thing when I when I showed him the value 580 00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:20,940 block and everything. He said, Oh, so really your RSS feed is 581 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:23,970 your whole life. That's everything. Yeah, I see. Yeah. 582 00:37:23,970 --> 00:37:27,330 And that that, I would say is the original Dave Winer vision 583 00:37:27,330 --> 00:37:32,760 to and you and you just hit you haven't domain name. You have 584 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,690 your RSS feed? That's it. There's no step three. 585 00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:45,180 in you, you have what we're missing in in that. And I'll 586 00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:49,740 probably say this is in our sort of mission statements. You know, 587 00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:52,620 we have preferred the preserve of podcasting and freedom of 588 00:37:52,620 --> 00:37:57,270 speech and converted to a platform of value. There's 589 00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:00,420 there's an, there's an implied statement mission statement in 590 00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:04,950 there, too. It's not spoken, but it's implied. Is that to 591 00:38:05,010 --> 00:38:09,270 preserve the open nature of the podcasting ecosystem, yes. 592 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:12,360 Because that you can't do the other two unless you do that 593 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,550 when it's sort of like a silent, what do you call it like a 594 00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:20,970 hidden premise. And to do like to do that, I think the thing 595 00:38:20,970 --> 00:38:24,900 that is missing is more on ramps, like and I'm going to 596 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,450 call out, I'm going to call that bus route here. I love bus 597 00:38:27,450 --> 00:38:31,950 route. I love those guys. But they tweeted out the other day, 598 00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:37,650 how to a guide on how to get listed in all of the biggest 599 00:38:37,650 --> 00:38:42,060 directories. podcasts index was not on there. Yeah. Well, the 600 00:38:42,060 --> 00:38:45,540 biggest were the biggest podcast directory on the internet. And 601 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:49,050 they did not they didn't list us. So they're telling their 602 00:38:49,050 --> 00:38:51,120 cousin they're not telling their customers 603 00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:54,300 about freedom about this little freedom thing that can offer 604 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,650 Yeah, yeah. And so that and I've seen that, you know, seen that 605 00:38:58,650 --> 00:38:59,160 with other hosts, 606 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,500 you know, and I think those things are just oversight. 607 00:39:02,940 --> 00:39:05,490 Because you have your template it's the same what irks me is 608 00:39:05,490 --> 00:39:09,600 the players you know, I got a I got a solicitation email today 609 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:17,940 from pod dot link and pod dot link. You know, they're like, 610 00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:21,720 hey, Nathan is on our PC. They're using our service now. 611 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:22,860 They think 612 00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:26,940 Are you sure on that link? I don't think so. 613 00:39:27,690 --> 00:39:30,360 Yeah, I think they're the ones that just got just got bought 614 00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:32,400 parts pad sites 615 00:39:32,430 --> 00:39:36,240 because I you can't I don't think you can find podcasting 616 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:41,700 2.0 on their name. 617 00:39:42,930 --> 00:39:44,190 No, it wasn't a no service. 618 00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:50,100 Nope. Told you not there. Anyway, I got I got a an 619 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:55,680 invitation to I guess claim my show. 620 00:39:55,710 --> 00:40:00,300 No, no, no, no, that's that's that's him pod. Yeah. How'd that 621 00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:00,930 LinkedIn go 622 00:40:00,930 --> 00:40:03,840 search, go search for podcasting 2.0, it doesn't show up. 623 00:40:04,410 --> 00:40:06,990 Really. Mm hmm. And then we'll know where he's getting this 624 00:40:06,990 --> 00:40:09,210 search from there. Because he's not using our search, he must be 625 00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:11,280 using our API, but not the search function. 626 00:40:12,030 --> 00:40:15,690 So then you go to I go to the no agenda page, and it says, 627 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:20,790 available on. And it's funny, because there's a link to it, 628 00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:24,720 right? There's a link to Apple next to it as Spotify. Let me 629 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:29,520 click on that, because we're not on Spotify, we better not be the 630 00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:34,470 indeed, we're not on Spotify. So it just has an empty page. Then 631 00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:42,480 there's Google overcast, Stitcher cast, box, Castro, 632 00:40:43,290 --> 00:40:50,970 podcast addict, radio, public breaker, player, FM, I Heart 633 00:40:50,970 --> 00:40:55,440 Radio, pocket cast, and then the raw RSS, which of course, has a 634 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:01,800 link to they basically, let me see, now there's a redirect to 635 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,060 the field. So they're missing a lot of great podcast apps. And 636 00:41:06,060 --> 00:41:10,740 this is where it gets interesting. Because since 637 00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:13,410 there's no price to compete with, we compete on features, 638 00:41:13,740 --> 00:41:17,040 and the features that the podcast namespace has the 639 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,580 features that our apps have, as people start to understand, 640 00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:25,020 reasons why you should at least be listed in the podcast index, 641 00:41:25,290 --> 00:41:29,400 and maybe even start to author for the features that are 642 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,280 available and send your listeners or suggest that your 643 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,160 listeners check out some of these apps new podcast apps 644 00:41:35,190 --> 00:42:10,170 calm. Instead of instead of helping out they're not, that's 645 00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:11,970 my that's my bottom line. So, 646 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:12,570 you know, 647 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:15,690 I think it's just an awareness issue. You have this page of 648 00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:19,650 players and you never add to it, it's just add the player block. 649 00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:22,860 And we all know how it goes. So it's a little wake up call. 650 00:42:23,010 --> 00:42:24,240 There's other stuff out there. 651 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,580 I'm trying to not, you know, I'm kind of passionate about this. 652 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:34,350 And I'm, and I know that people are cuz, because the one thing I 653 00:42:34,350 --> 00:42:38,520 want to say is I really appreciate everybody. Many 654 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,630 people reached out and oh, my goodness, it was honestly, a lot 655 00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:47,760 of a lot of slack yet. buzzsprout reached out RSS comm 656 00:42:48,030 --> 00:42:50,610 a lot of people reached out to see if we needed any mini money, 657 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,300 any money or help or anything like that, like that. So I mean, 658 00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:58,920 those guys care. It's just that. I like you. I think you said the 659 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,870 spell. It's the podcast industry is under a spell. And the spell 660 00:43:03,870 --> 00:43:11,340 is Apple. Yep. And, and now Spotify. And that if we really 661 00:43:11,340 --> 00:43:16,710 want if if podcasting is going to maintain its openness, if 662 00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:21,960 it's going to continue to exist as an open medium, you have to 663 00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:25,950 break the spell and get out of the and that doesn't. And I want 664 00:43:25,950 --> 00:43:29,340 to be clear, that does not mean you have to come use our API, 665 00:43:29,490 --> 00:43:32,280 because literally like, you know, people have been, you 666 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,230 know, I've heard people say, well, y'all must be really 667 00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:38,460 excited that everybody's using your API now that as a backstop. 668 00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:41,970 Now that Apple is broken, it's like, well, I mean, it's nice, 669 00:43:41,970 --> 00:43:44,490 but we don't get paid for this. I mean, it's not like we have, 670 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,550 you know, 100 more paying customers now, no, we just have 671 00:43:47,550 --> 00:43:50,790 10 times the bandwidth. So, I mean, like, it actually got 672 00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:55,740 harder. It's not exactly a fun, a fun time to be had. But what 673 00:43:55,890 --> 00:43:59,850 one thing that we do offer that may be just as important as the 674 00:43:59,850 --> 00:44:03,450 API itself, is we have our entire index feed database down 675 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,160 downloadable for free, yeah. And so anybody could then pick that 676 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,740 up, and stick that in their service. And now they don't have 677 00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:14,280 to have Apple anymore. That and that can take literally 30 678 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,300 minutes to do and that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about, 679 00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:25,080 like break the spell, and in begin to participate and bolster 680 00:44:25,290 --> 00:44:29,280 the open ecosystem. All we need is more on ramps, and that's why 681 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,260 I brought that's why I brought up the fact that we were missing 682 00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:33,480 from some of those guides that were being put out about how to 683 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,200 get your stuff self listed in in the big in big internet 684 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:43,020 directories. Like we need more on ramps into this thing. What 685 00:44:43,530 --> 00:44:47,160 and we're you know, I've got this new idea for the piping 686 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,580 service not that kind of thing. Hope maybe that will help. But 687 00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:54,180 really we need hosting company. Here's, I think that I think 688 00:44:54,180 --> 00:44:58,980 this goes two ways. I'm convinced with this. I think 689 00:44:58,980 --> 00:45:02,670 number one Get we need more onramps from the hosting 690 00:45:02,670 --> 00:45:08,760 companies, not just to us. But to all of the open directories 691 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,500 there's us there's blueberry hosting Open Directory. AKA 692 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:18,750 there's at least one more the cert the apps themselves 693 00:45:18,780 --> 00:45:23,610 overcast, has a full directory, podcast addict seems to have a 694 00:45:23,610 --> 00:45:26,820 full directory, there's there's a few different open directories 695 00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:29,580 around and I'm at a moment open that they have an API just mean 696 00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:33,420 open that they collect these things, more on ramps into the 697 00:45:33,450 --> 00:45:39,480 open directories. In number two, they I think, not just not just 698 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,890 the hosts, but also podcasters themselves that care about these 699 00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:48,870 things, need to start asking their their listeners to use 700 00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:55,320 different apps. Like so if you're a big podcast, to just 701 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,560 ask your listeners say, Hey, have you ever tried out overcast 702 00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:08,790 podcast adding pod friend, pod verse, hyper catcher, downcast, 703 00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:14,850 all of the indie apps out there, the podcasters themselves, they 704 00:46:14,850 --> 00:46:18,810 care about the open ecosystem can make it a point to in their 705 00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:23,100 podcast all the time, ask their listeners to use something other 706 00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:27,150 than Spotify and Apple podcast app. Because that's the that's 707 00:46:27,150 --> 00:46:30,450 the that's the thing that we get told all the time, is that the 708 00:46:30,450 --> 00:46:34,980 reason that Apple is so dominant in this space is because well, 709 00:46:35,010 --> 00:46:39,720 they have 65% of the app market. That could change very quickly. 710 00:46:40,110 --> 00:46:43,710 If podcasters asked their audience to go try out some 711 00:46:43,710 --> 00:46:48,840 other app. The other apps are free or cheap. It's not even it 712 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,690 doesn't even hurt me. And you know what, once you convert 713 00:46:51,690 --> 00:46:56,310 somebody from Apple podcast to some other you have 714 00:46:56,910 --> 00:46:59,940 another you set yet another digital slave free. 715 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,840 Yeah. And they'll never go back because they're just the apps 716 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,410 are just better. The indie app and the indie podcasting apps 717 00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:08,460 are just better. 718 00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:12,270 Yeah, I mean, I was always an overcast user until podcasting. 719 00:47:12,270 --> 00:47:16,080 2.0. And I really needed and you know, had to test the features, 720 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,110 you know, the overcast was definitely, definitely my app of 721 00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:21,870 choice. Now, of course, I'm on graphene. Oh, so that, that 722 00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:26,190 removes that. But yeah, it's a spell. And it's the same spell 723 00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:30,330 that podcasting has been under for 15 years, probably 10. For 724 00:47:30,330 --> 00:47:34,410 sure. The spell that if Apple doesn't do it, well, then who 725 00:47:34,410 --> 00:47:38,670 cares? It doesn't it didn't happen. Now that we've 726 00:47:38,670 --> 00:47:41,790 definitely knocked the spell around, look at all the support 727 00:47:41,790 --> 00:47:44,310 and integration we've gotten from many of the hosting 728 00:47:44,310 --> 00:47:47,250 companies. But we still don't have enough tools, authoring 729 00:47:47,250 --> 00:47:50,430 systems, etc. For all these great new features, even though 730 00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:54,060 there's uptake You know, there's a lot of uptake transcripts, 731 00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,940 there's transcript companies making more money because of 732 00:47:56,940 --> 00:48:00,120 podcasting. 2.0. Fact. Yeah, yeah, that's 733 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:00,870 bad. 734 00:48:01,590 --> 00:48:05,340 Yeah, know. So there's, there's, there's stuff. Yeah, break the 735 00:48:05,340 --> 00:48:09,630 spell, it will happen eventually. It can. The spell is 736 00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:14,700 real. But so is just the old Art of War. And it's divide and 737 00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:17,010 conquer, we don't even have to do it, that they're fighting 738 00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:20,580 amongst themselves. In the old country, we say Australia home, 739 00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:24,450 the faster faster one being carton data from door. Which 740 00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:27,330 means when two dogs are fighting over a bone, a third will walk 741 00:48:27,330 --> 00:48:31,890 away with it. That's nice. And that's exactly what's what's 742 00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:36,030 going to take place. I mean, that's obvious. It's so this 743 00:48:36,030 --> 00:48:38,820 will be maybe this will be in the management books in 20 744 00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:42,990 years. How not to do it. They won't be that important, again, 745 00:48:42,990 --> 00:48:46,500 to the bottom line of these companies. But man, what what a 746 00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:49,500 difference freedom makes in everyone's life. 747 00:48:50,610 --> 00:48:55,290 Yeah. 100% I mean, this this has been, this has been a quite an 748 00:48:55,290 --> 00:48:58,920 interesting week on so many levels. I mean, like, if, Bill, 749 00:48:58,950 --> 00:49:03,240 not just not, I mean, not just technical, philosophical, the 750 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:07,140 whole thing because it really does have I feel like the 751 00:49:07,140 --> 00:49:11,280 industry has finally sort of woken up a little bit and said, 752 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,840 you know, that we did have we do have a very weird, uncomfortable 753 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,680 relationship with the largest company in the world. 754 00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:23,730 It's not an it's not an actual relationship. 755 00:49:25,260 --> 00:49:27,330 Yeah, it's more like a 756 00:49:28,590 --> 00:49:33,060 we're in Paris. It's like we're, you know, it's like the typical 757 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,770 parasitic relationship, where you have the cleaner fish to 758 00:49:37,770 --> 00:49:41,040 clean out the teeth of the big fish. And the big fish doesn't 759 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,190 eat them, because it's probably just easier. Just let him clean, 760 00:49:44,190 --> 00:49:47,910 you know, and eventually, they say, Oh, this, this is a cleaner 761 00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:50,400 fish. I don't have to bite down on that one. You know, like, Oh, 762 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,460 that's an API request from independent podcast. app is 763 00:49:53,460 --> 00:49:56,670 fine. We'll just leave that. And then eventually, one of the two 764 00:49:56,670 --> 00:50:02,820 fucks the other one It's just nature. It's just how it goes. 765 00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:05,820 All right. So I think enough about that. I mean, I don't 766 00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:08,820 think there's, there's much more to say, other than, we're 767 00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:13,410 extremely happy. I am personally very excited to have overcast 768 00:50:13,410 --> 00:50:19,590 Marco jumping, jump on board who came bearing gifts, I might add, 769 00:50:19,590 --> 00:50:23,850 he immediately saw one of the and I don't know all the exact 770 00:50:23,850 --> 00:50:27,600 issues around the iTunes ID, I know that they're hard to get 771 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,200 they're like, like, like the like the high high valued 772 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:37,020 Pokemons to go into the woods to go get and shit. So he 773 00:50:37,020 --> 00:50:42,000 immediately jumped in. And he signed up and even made a nice 774 00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:44,580 donation, which will thank him for that in our donation 775 00:50:44,580 --> 00:50:49,140 segment, he came right along and said, here I am. He came 776 00:50:49,140 --> 00:50:52,530 bearing, you know, time, talent and treasure, you know, the 777 00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:56,940 three things that we need with with this open source project. 778 00:50:57,330 --> 00:51:01,410 And for him to be contributing back our missing iTunes IDs is I 779 00:51:01,410 --> 00:51:05,820 mean, what a what a phenomenal entry into into our world here. 780 00:51:06,420 --> 00:51:09,750 Yeah, that was really helpful. Because those, you know, we get 781 00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:15,510 a little nilla Tick Tock per second week, the iTunes, that it 782 00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:20,280 turns the iTunes IDs have always been relatively easy to get. If 783 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,730 you if you've got an ID and you want the Feed URL, that's an 784 00:51:23,730 --> 00:51:26,940 easy thing to do. If you've got the Feed URL, and you want to 785 00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:30,870 get the iTunes ID, it's basically impossible. Yeah. So 786 00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:34,200 we, you know, for a while we were using, we're using a 787 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:39,600 different API, and we had to, we had to stop. And then what so 788 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:46,410 what we have been doing in the index, for all this time now is 789 00:51:47,460 --> 00:51:51,660 we we put the Feed URL in, we get the Feed URL from some other 790 00:51:51,660 --> 00:51:58,980 source. And then when somebody does it does a does a call to 791 00:51:58,980 --> 00:52:04,740 the podcast by iTunes ID endpoint and API. It gets logged 792 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,360 in, if it's a miss. If it can't resolve it, if we don't have 793 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:15,690 that iTunes ID listed. Then what happens is every night, admit at 794 00:52:15,690 --> 00:52:20,010 midnight, the API servers, there's two front end API 795 00:52:20,010 --> 00:52:24,660 servers that actually serve the traffic, each one of them, look 796 00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:29,010 through the logs that grip the logs and see which iTunes IDs 797 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:35,220 that were requested, did not get fulfilled. And then they go back 798 00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:42,540 and and do the apple lookup API to resolve it in reverse. And so 799 00:52:42,540 --> 00:52:45,660 then, then it will make the linkage between the Feed URL and 800 00:52:45,660 --> 00:52:49,770 the iTunes ID that that's not that great. It's not 801 00:52:49,770 --> 00:52:50,400 a fast way 802 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,640 to do it. No, but it's really it's kind of rely way to do it. 803 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,000 Yeah. It was reliable until this week, it's kind of 804 00:52:58,410 --> 00:52:59,670 Rube Goldberg II 805 00:53:02,610 --> 00:53:05,700 is janky. But so until this week, and that's when I first 806 00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:07,860 started noticing something was wrong with Apple API's. But 807 00:53:07,860 --> 00:53:08,130 right 808 00:53:08,190 --> 00:53:09,510 now, you can't get early on. 809 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,500 I get a cron job every day, I get all the logs emailed to me 810 00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:16,500 each night. And I always forget, one of the first things I do in 811 00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:20,190 the morning is a look. I'm a strong believer on the sysadmin 812 00:53:20,190 --> 00:53:23,640 side of you need to walk into the server room every now and 813 00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:24,810 then look at the blinky lights. 814 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:26,460 blinking, right? 815 00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:30,300 Right? Yeah. say, oh, that lies and you haven't seen that 816 00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:34,080 before? That's bad, you know. So I get the emails every every 817 00:53:34,110 --> 00:53:37,740 morning, and I look and just make sure everything looks the 818 00:53:37,740 --> 00:53:42,480 same. And one thing I noticed, I guess this was maybe roughly 819 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,860 Monday, Sunday night, Monday night, that I got the email the 820 00:53:46,860 --> 00:53:50,190 next morning, and it has the log of all the iTunes resolutions. 821 00:53:51,060 --> 00:53:58,230 And for the first time, I can remember the the first like 500 822 00:53:58,230 --> 00:54:01,560 of them were all failures. Wow. Well, that's, 823 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,930 that's a Sunday night database rollover. in Cupertino. 824 00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:11,280 Yes. And I was like, Oh, that's strange. And then the next day, 825 00:54:11,310 --> 00:54:15,900 same thing. And so you know that and then James popped up, his 826 00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:19,590 stuff was acting really wonky, and things females are starting 827 00:54:19,590 --> 00:54:23,310 to get missing. So the fact that Marcus showed up with basically 828 00:54:23,340 --> 00:54:30,270 a batch of half a million iTunes IDs was like hidden treasure. So 829 00:54:30,270 --> 00:54:34,680 those things are about I'm still importing them. advocate, 830 00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:39,000 Christopher isane is importing. He's finishing up his import, he 831 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,780 has about 30,000 feeds left to go on his batch of imports. And 832 00:54:42,780 --> 00:54:45,780 then we're importing the iTunes IDs at the same time. So I'm 833 00:54:45,780 --> 00:54:50,100 hoping that by the end of this, we'll have like, most of 834 00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:50,970 everything filled, 835 00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:54,660 how important are these iTunes IDs moving forward? I mean, is 836 00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:57,210 there a conversion at some point where you're not using that 837 00:54:57,210 --> 00:54:59,820 anymore? Or is that is that going to stick with us forever? 838 00:55:00,329 --> 00:55:03,389 yet to be determined, really, because it depends on what Apple 839 00:55:03,389 --> 00:55:07,169 does with this whole thing. Because like, that's the other 840 00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:12,359 sort of techie stuff that went on the last few days is the the 841 00:55:12,359 --> 00:55:16,169 iTunes ID endpoints, there's really two main ones, there's, 842 00:55:16,379 --> 00:55:20,189 you can add a feed to the index through the Add by iTunes ID, or 843 00:55:20,189 --> 00:55:23,219 you can just check if a feed exists and get metadata from it. 844 00:55:23,729 --> 00:55:26,909 With the podcast by iTunes ID, there's also an episode about 845 00:55:26,909 --> 00:55:31,409 iTunes ID. So those three endpoints, they never really got 846 00:55:31,409 --> 00:55:35,789 used very much. Because most of the apps that use the index are 847 00:55:35,789 --> 00:55:39,299 using our IDs. So they're calling they're calling the 848 00:55:39,299 --> 00:55:42,329 buffeted ID and point instead of the about the iTunes ID 849 00:55:42,359 --> 00:55:45,239 endpoint. But then when all these flood of the other aspect 850 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,649 can come in, they all depend on that iTunes ID as their sort of 851 00:55:49,709 --> 00:55:53,069 source of truth. So they started using that. And I started 852 00:55:53,069 --> 00:55:56,339 noticing some weirdness that that didn't like, there's an 853 00:55:56,339 --> 00:55:59,369 inconsistency in the way things were being were being handled. 854 00:55:59,609 --> 00:56:03,179 So I beef those up over the last couple of days and fix some 855 00:56:03,179 --> 00:56:05,549 problems that I didn't really even realize existed, because 856 00:56:05,549 --> 00:56:08,789 they just didn't get used very much. So those are better now. 857 00:56:08,789 --> 00:56:14,639 But like going forward, the you know, if if Apple doesn't fix 858 00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:22,289 this, if it remains just a basically, a, an unreliable API 859 00:56:22,979 --> 00:56:27,809 to get feed information, then I'm not really sure what happens 860 00:56:27,809 --> 00:56:31,319 at that point for the apps, it doesn't affect us at all, 861 00:56:31,319 --> 00:56:35,849 because we never depended on those anyway. But for the apps 862 00:56:35,849 --> 00:56:38,519 out there that have been dependent on iTunes IDs for 863 00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:43,829 years and years. If they stop being able to convert an iTunes 864 00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:48,569 ID into a Feed URL, I'm not really sure what they do. 865 00:56:49,499 --> 00:56:51,839 They'll have to make a convert, they'll have to convert 866 00:56:51,839 --> 00:56:52,859 something on their side. 867 00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:57,450 Right. And is that the podcast index ID? Well, is that an 868 00:56:57,450 --> 00:56:59,700 obvious one? Is that kind of that too obvious? 869 00:57:00,420 --> 00:57:01,200 And I mean, 870 00:57:02,340 --> 00:57:05,400 you know, I don't know. I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense. 871 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,670 It will, it makes sense. For this reason, we make our 872 00:57:08,670 --> 00:57:13,950 database free to download. So there's really no reason not to 873 00:57:13,950 --> 00:57:18,240 use the podcast index ID. Because everybody can have it 874 00:57:18,510 --> 00:57:22,410 right? In for like, they don't even have to ask the API for it. 875 00:57:22,650 --> 00:57:25,890 They can download it and just import it into their database. 876 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,720 And so it doesn't really, there's not a reason not to, 877 00:57:31,170 --> 00:57:33,810 because anything else that you can think of let's just say if 878 00:57:33,810 --> 00:57:37,050 you hashed the Feed URL, or tried to come up with some other 879 00:57:37,050 --> 00:57:40,350 ID will mean feed URLs change, people move host. That's not, 880 00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:45,390 that's not static information. In it, we just learned that you 881 00:57:45,390 --> 00:57:48,870 can't depend on an API. And I would say, you came and fully 882 00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:52,230 depend on our API, it's not guaranteed to be here forever. I 883 00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:55,830 mean, you know, I mean, 25 years from now, we rip I'm out of 884 00:57:55,830 --> 00:58:00,780 here, either. But we've got the full database that connects 885 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:06,090 feeds with IDs in that open downloadable, free database that 886 00:58:06,090 --> 00:58:07,170 should still be around 887 00:58:07,650 --> 00:58:12,300 means Yeah, like, I can run that, you know, that can run on 888 00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:14,670 its own by itself. It's already automated. I don't even touch 889 00:58:14,670 --> 00:58:16,410 it. It just generates itself every week. 890 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,710 Now does this bring us automatically to Hydra and pod 891 00:58:19,710 --> 00:58:22,320 pain? Because I think we do need a little update on what the hell 892 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,340 is going on in your head. It's funny cuz I showed the drawing 893 00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:29,580 that you posted on the on the mastodon, I said, Tina said, 894 00:58:29,790 --> 00:58:31,530 hey, what does this look like? She said, like one of your 895 00:58:31,530 --> 00:58:37,530 drawings. She seen those so many times boxes connecting to clouds 896 00:58:37,530 --> 00:58:41,730 with little lines and stuff. And oh, my God, like, Oh, I already 897 00:58:41,730 --> 00:58:42,480 understand it 898 00:58:43,020 --> 00:58:45,660 would be fantastic. If only it had been in crayon. 899 00:58:47,610 --> 00:58:49,440 On a tablecloth Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. 900 00:58:49,650 --> 00:58:52,470 Yeah. So I mean, I don't know how deep we want to get into it. 901 00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:57,030 We could talk about it next week. But and the the idea is 902 00:58:57,030 --> 00:59:00,540 basically, and I think I talked about it with Canada Vegas 903 00:59:00,540 --> 00:59:04,800 briefly. I just thought about it earlier. It The idea is that we 904 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:11,880 would have basically create a web sub network that's dedicated 905 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:17,100 to nothing but podcast called podcasting. And because the 906 00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:21,870 problem with web sub is it's built for sort of pure 907 00:59:21,870 --> 00:59:29,970 decentralization. And it assumes a world of of an open RSS, like 908 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:35,580 period. But the podcast world of open RSS is is much, much 909 00:59:35,580 --> 00:59:42,810 smaller. And it's also much more dependent on time. Right? If I 910 00:59:42,810 --> 00:59:45,030 don't get a blog post for a few hours, I mean, 911 00:59:45,060 --> 00:59:46,170 nobody cares. 912 00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,590 Who cares? If you don't get a podcast episode for a few hours. 913 00:59:49,590 --> 00:59:52,620 It can be really annoying to freak out time. It is freaking 914 00:59:52,620 --> 00:59:55,590 out. Hey, man, I can't it's not Can you didn't upload 915 00:59:55,590 --> 00:59:56,940 it to overcast yet? 916 00:59:57,150 --> 00:59:59,190 How many times have I heard that? Hey, can you upload it to 917 00:59:59,190 --> 01:00:03,300 overcast Not exactly how it works, by the way, overcast is 918 01:00:03,330 --> 01:00:05,970 one of the ones ones that shows up very quickly. 919 01:00:06,540 --> 01:00:11,790 So I think the the idea is we're not great at this either, we 920 01:00:11,790 --> 01:00:15,150 still have podcasts. Because aggregation and polling is such 921 01:00:15,150 --> 01:00:20,040 a pain in the butt, we still have podcasts that don't update 922 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:27,360 in a timely manner, right. So the idea here is basically, I am 923 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:32,400 looking at this as a joint project between, I'm going to, 924 01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:36,510 I'm going to write a bulk of the code. But I see this as a joint 925 01:00:36,510 --> 01:00:41,190 product between venture between us, the hosting companies, in 926 01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:45,600 the apps, and the podcast apps, that means all of us together, 927 01:00:46,410 --> 01:00:54,000 to, to join into a network where the hosting companies, all they 928 01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:01,500 have to do is one thing. Anytime a podcast is created, or 929 01:01:01,590 --> 01:01:07,980 updates, they send a pain to what the receiving endpoint is 930 01:01:07,980 --> 01:01:15,420 going to be notification dot pod pain cloud, they just send an 931 01:01:15,420 --> 01:01:19,980 update and say, this bead has updated in they send the Feed 932 01:01:19,980 --> 01:01:27,480 URL when there will be a network of servers that can they can all 933 01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:33,150 operate independently will run one hour, my desire would be 934 01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:38,730 that we run one, blueberry run one, overcast runs one, 935 01:01:38,850 --> 01:01:43,050 basically, anybody with podcast addict, anybody that has a 936 01:01:43,050 --> 01:01:47,610 directory of podcasts that need that does this type of polling, 937 01:01:47,970 --> 01:01:50,340 they would run one of these servers so that they can 938 01:01:50,340 --> 01:01:53,970 immediately get the update. Yeah, and know to pull the feed, 939 01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:59,190 then they just relay that notification out to a list of 940 01:01:59,190 --> 01:02:02,850 subscribers. And the subscribers are all the apps, the 941 01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:06,120 subscribers, our podcast addict, right? pod friend, hyper 942 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:11,040 catcher, us, anybody who wants to know about those things, cast 943 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,320 down cast pocket, cast box, whoo, I 944 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:14,970 see another bubble chart coming. 945 01:02:15,780 --> 01:02:19,740 Yeah. And so basically, it's just, uh, it all originates from 946 01:02:19,740 --> 01:02:22,560 the host, and not just the hosting companies not so it 947 01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,890 would be buzzsprout, blueberry transistor, captivate fireside, 948 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:36,690 all these guys. And then also, any independent podcaster can 949 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,710 can also send a notification, like if you run your if like if 950 01:02:40,710 --> 01:02:43,620 you run your podcast on a on a WordPress, blue power press 951 01:02:43,620 --> 01:02:47,820 website. Anybody can do this. All you have to do though is 952 01:02:47,820 --> 01:02:53,760 it's it's not open, like web sub, you need to create a token, 953 01:02:54,060 --> 01:02:56,880 a secure API is sort of like an API key, you just need to create 954 01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:01,620 a secret. And there's a signup registration process before the 955 01:03:01,620 --> 01:03:05,730 notification servers will accept your notification. And then 956 01:03:05,730 --> 01:03:08,640 they'll pass it through to the other side to the subscribers 957 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:13,560 list. And those subscribers also have to register. And so the 958 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:21,120 registration is just to keep all the shenanigans out. Otherwise, 959 01:03:21,150 --> 01:03:27,420 it's basically just web sub. But it's it's web sub, with with an 960 01:03:27,420 --> 01:03:30,780 approval only and everybody gets approved. If you sign up. It's 961 01:03:30,780 --> 01:03:35,610 just not 100% open, like you can just go to it. Right? You have 962 01:03:35,610 --> 01:03:37,590 to you have to be you have to go through the registration 963 01:03:37,590 --> 01:03:41,700 process. I think if we do it that way, is super lightweight. 964 01:03:42,090 --> 01:03:48,090 It's super dependable. You have the podcast hosts. All they have 965 01:03:48,090 --> 01:03:52,920 to do all they have to do is say is do a get request to one URL 966 01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,100 notification that popping up cloud with the you Feed URL 967 01:03:56,130 --> 01:03:59,640 anytime a failure anytime a new podcast is created on their 968 01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,450 service or anytime one of their existing podcasts updates. And 969 01:04:03,450 --> 01:04:08,820 then on the subscriber side, which is the app side. They all 970 01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:11,940 the anybody who wants to be notified of of all these 971 01:04:11,940 --> 01:04:19,050 updates. They just go to one DNS name, which is subscribe dot pod 972 01:04:19,050 --> 01:04:23,580 pink cloud and do a subscription request. And you don't 973 01:04:23,580 --> 01:04:26,490 subscribe. Like with traditional web sub you subscribe, you say I 974 01:04:26,490 --> 01:04:29,370 want to subscribe to this feed and this feed in this feed. No. 975 01:04:29,820 --> 01:04:33,990 When you subscribe, you get it all get it all the hose Yep, you 976 01:04:33,990 --> 01:04:36,450 get the fire hose because everything Pat. It's just a pass 977 01:04:36,450 --> 01:04:36,750 through which 978 01:04:36,750 --> 01:04:38,370 is easy, which makes it simple. 979 01:04:39,270 --> 01:04:45,060 You register a callback hook a web you register a web hook and 980 01:04:46,740 --> 01:04:50,100 and like you know the name the name of your app. And that's 981 01:04:50,130 --> 01:04:52,290 that's it and then all sudden you start getting your web hook 982 01:04:52,290 --> 01:04:56,550 starts getting the firehose and it and it's also it. You only 983 01:04:56,550 --> 01:05:00,900 have to re subscribe every let's just say seven days. And it's 984 01:05:00,900 --> 01:05:03,990 just a quick resubscribe. And you still get the hose. And if 985 01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:06,540 you go anytime you want to unsubscribe, you can unsubscribe 986 01:05:06,900 --> 01:05:14,430 with. The problem is with web sub, we have almost a million 987 01:05:14,430 --> 01:05:20,370 active web subscriptions, one of our servers spends all day every 988 01:05:20,370 --> 01:05:24,690 day just re subscribing to websites. Because each feed has 989 01:05:24,690 --> 01:05:28,710 its own individual entity. And so you have to subscribe to it 990 01:05:28,770 --> 01:05:30,810 in in this one, and in this one and this one. And before you 991 01:05:30,810 --> 01:05:34,740 know it, you've got, you know, 800,000 subscriptions, web 992 01:05:34,740 --> 01:05:40,230 subscriptions. And so this is not practical. It's not working. 993 01:05:40,380 --> 01:05:41,850 Got it? Got it. Yeah. 994 01:05:42,420 --> 01:05:46,260 All right. Let me just switch gears for a second. Okay. 995 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:54,660 Multiple fee splits in the TLV records. So we can get 996 01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,150 everything working with ln pay. Now moving on to value for 997 01:06:00,150 --> 01:06:04,200 value, streaming payments, for those who don't know what this 998 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:09,030 is yet. and the value block? Has that been fixed? Is that is that 999 01:06:09,030 --> 01:06:11,280 now functioning? Because I have no idea because everything 1000 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,010 happened in a blur in the past couple of days for me? 1001 01:06:14,310 --> 01:06:18,360 Yeah, it's all blur to that. I don't know. I don't know if it's 1002 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,550 fixed or not, because I was trying to help him figure it 1003 01:06:20,550 --> 01:06:24,600 out. And then all the dapple stuff happened. And I started to 1004 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:29,430 get back to it yesterday. And then mark, okay. stuff happened. 1005 01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:33,300 Yeah. And now had half a million, you know, add a stamp 1006 01:06:33,300 --> 01:06:37,860 to import. So that's, yeah, I don't know, it's gonna have to 1007 01:06:37,860 --> 01:06:39,690 be something that I get back to the next day or so. 1008 01:06:40,710 --> 01:06:44,850 Okay, is a thing that we can tell everybody, so they know 1009 01:06:44,850 --> 01:06:46,230 what to be looking for. 1010 01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:52,230 Um, don't set up your value block to receive to receive 1011 01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,960 sets. Right now, if you need a custom key custom record. Just 1012 01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:04,050 don't until, because that that part of the spec came later. And 1013 01:07:04,050 --> 01:07:10,170 so thanks doesn't support it yet. Part Four friend does pod 1014 01:07:10,170 --> 01:07:17,340 station does and Brees Does, does not if but for some reason. 1015 01:07:18,180 --> 01:07:21,570 The they're, they're still failing in a way that I don't 1016 01:07:21,570 --> 01:07:26,580 understand. So for now, I just think it's best for people not 1017 01:07:26,610 --> 01:07:32,460 to receive sets on on LNP, you can send fine, but don't try to 1018 01:07:32,460 --> 01:07:36,090 receive them until we get this figured out and put out a 1019 01:07:36,090 --> 01:07:36,450 signal. 1020 01:07:37,350 --> 01:07:42,060 Just wanted to update everybody. I just ran a chart and a total 1021 01:07:42,060 --> 01:07:48,150 for the seven days trailing this moment. The index has received 1022 01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:58,620 103,478 SATs, which represents roughly 1% of 10,347,800 SATs 1023 01:07:58,620 --> 01:08:03,330 for this past past week. At the current price. Roughly 50,000. 1024 01:08:03,330 --> 01:08:07,050 That means $5,000. Am I saying this right? 1025 01:08:08,370 --> 01:08:10,770 No Name. Math matching? 1026 01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:13,620 Yeah, here we go. 1027 01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:18,480 So when you talk math, 1028 01:08:21,900 --> 01:08:24,750 math to me, oh my goodness. 1029 01:08:25,739 --> 01:08:27,779 I am say run the Spanx dry. 1030 01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:30,240 This is what she said. 1031 01:08:31,020 --> 01:08:31,800 She said that 1032 01:08:31,860 --> 01:08:35,520 I don't even want to listen to it again. I don't want to know 1033 01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,550 what Dame Jennifer says to me. Again, I'll give you the I'll 1034 01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:43,140 give you that number. Oops, I can't put commas. There we go. 1035 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:50,460 So at today's price you have $5,214 flowed through podcasting 1036 01:08:50,460 --> 01:08:54,300 2.0 this past week, what's your piece? What's your piece of it 1037 01:08:54,300 --> 01:08:59,310 is what I asked everybody else. So now, why didn't run the 1038 01:08:59,310 --> 01:09:04,800 number of transactions. But you know, a greater amount than that 1039 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:10,110 went to podcast app developers. Because we know that certain has 1040 01:09:10,110 --> 01:09:16,350 certain apps or take like resist taking 5% I think LMP I think we 1041 01:09:16,350 --> 01:09:20,670 finally got Tim to Cooper sent to Yeah, to consider taking some 1042 01:09:20,670 --> 01:09:24,030 money. Yeah, we have to we have to beat people in the 1043 01:09:24,030 --> 01:09:30,210 submission. Dave, it's crazy. Take the money. You know, and 1044 01:09:30,210 --> 01:09:34,410 every app knows for self what they're doing. And that's some 1045 01:09:34,410 --> 01:09:39,000 serious coin that's $20,000 a month is flowing from listeners 1046 01:09:39,090 --> 01:09:43,950 to the podcast ecosystem. Which Yes, majority going to 1047 01:09:43,950 --> 01:09:47,760 podcasters but not just podcasters people who help 1048 01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:52,980 produce this show. In fact, 5% goes to Dred Scott Who does? 1049 01:09:53,370 --> 01:09:56,820 Does our chapter work? on no agenda. He does that as well 1050 01:09:56,820 --> 01:10:00,540 gets 5% there's there's 5% that goes to a Neil Jones no 1051 01:10:00,540 --> 01:10:07,080 relation. He's the clip custodian, and then to wallet 1052 01:10:07,140 --> 01:10:11,250 providers, app developers, I mean, it's really quite 1053 01:10:11,250 --> 01:10:14,370 phenomenal. This this is some real money that's flowing here. 1054 01:10:14,969 --> 01:10:17,609 Yeah, that's what I tweeted that the other day, I was like, you 1055 01:10:17,609 --> 01:10:22,439 know, what, you know, this is boring. Apple subscriptions is 1056 01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,279 boring. Wait, wait me up when you can, when you can stick a 1057 01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:29,759 subscribe button on any app and have the app developer get get 1058 01:10:29,759 --> 01:10:33,029 part of that revenue. Because the apple subscriptions is just 1059 01:10:33,029 --> 01:10:37,229 more of it's just more of app developers not getting paid. I 1060 01:10:37,229 --> 01:10:37,589 mean, 1061 01:10:37,710 --> 01:10:41,310 right now we're at, you know, over a quarter of a million 1062 01:10:41,310 --> 01:10:44,340 dollars per year at current run rate is flowing through 1063 01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:49,050 podcasting. That is podcasting. 2.0 now, it's not the billion 1064 01:10:49,050 --> 01:10:52,800 dollars, but let me tell you, I'm looking at my own wallet. 1065 01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:55,080 I'm saying Hey, I got a couple 100 bucks. 1066 01:10:56,580 --> 01:10:58,830 I'm literally going to go broke. 1067 01:11:01,020 --> 01:11:04,710 I know. I know. I keep like filling up my pod friend wallet 1068 01:11:04,710 --> 01:11:08,160 to is like, shuffling between them. You know like, I need some 1069 01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,830 more money over here. I need some money over here. It is and 1070 01:11:10,830 --> 01:11:14,130 it's so much fun to do. This I was used to joy 1071 01:11:14,340 --> 01:11:23,250 as using pod friend. And then as my non as my non sat wallet, I 1072 01:11:23,250 --> 01:11:26,610 mean set podcast player, my non value podcast player and then 1073 01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:32,550 when Martin put in, put in the boost, it was hard coded at 1000 1074 01:11:32,550 --> 01:11:34,860 I'm like, oh god, I can't test too rich for my blood. I 1075 01:11:34,860 --> 01:11:39,120 can't do it. Well, I just boost half what I normally boost. I'm 1076 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,470 a 500 sat booster. Yeah, so I'm just but but I do want to boost 1077 01:11:43,470 --> 01:11:44,130 more. 1078 01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:47,400 He just dropped it though that I installed the latest beta. Oh, 1079 01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,380 he's changed it. 500 Yeah, it's a fine. Okay, 1080 01:11:49,380 --> 01:11:50,460 but it's still fixed. 1081 01:11:51,150 --> 01:11:54,780 I think I think so. I think I just have to add, okay, so I 1082 01:11:54,780 --> 01:11:58,650 last night, but but you know, the other the other app that I'm 1083 01:11:58,650 --> 01:12:01,290 looking forward to putting the value thing is pod verse. 1084 01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:05,460 Oh, my gosh, I'm so ready for that. Yeah, that's another great 1085 01:12:05,460 --> 01:12:06,150 one. Yeah. 1086 01:12:07,470 --> 01:12:10,230 I think I sent you some some clips. Yeah, 1087 01:12:10,230 --> 01:12:12,390 you're saying we play with the clips. It was very, very cool 1088 01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:13,260 functionality. 1089 01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:18,450 Yeah, that is I didn't realize you could do that. Well, that's 1090 01:12:18,450 --> 01:12:18,900 that's 1091 01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:21,240 the history of the app. Right. As we learned from Mitch that's 1092 01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,320 that's where they come from, from, from podcast clips. Now to 1093 01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,950 be done in some expert way by Facebook. Apparently. We'll see. 1094 01:12:29,730 --> 01:12:33,330 Yeah. Oh, by the way, we had it. I get it. A guy called me or not 1095 01:12:33,330 --> 01:12:41,580 call me. Email me. From pull up email. he emailed me they just 1096 01:12:41,580 --> 01:12:47,040 integrated soundbites. And I've never heard of this group 1097 01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,050 before. Where is it? 1098 01:12:50,910 --> 01:12:51,690 From 1099 01:12:53,820 --> 01:12:56,370 headliner dot app. Have you heard of that? 1100 01:12:59,940 --> 01:13:03,840 Why does this sound familiar? It's some sort of video thing. 1101 01:13:05,100 --> 01:13:06,150 And headline or 1102 01:13:08,910 --> 01:13:11,940 video is the best way to promote your podcast. Oh, Julie Andrews 1103 01:13:11,940 --> 01:13:14,310 on the homepage. Well, I'm sold. Yeah, 1104 01:13:14,670 --> 01:13:18,450 they've got they've got to go to their blog. Do you see a link to 1105 01:13:18,450 --> 01:13:19,020 the blog? 1106 01:13:19,050 --> 01:13:19,650 Yes, I do. 1107 01:13:20,490 --> 01:13:24,210 Go there. And the first post is no more clipping headliner now. 1108 01:13:24,690 --> 01:13:28,020 soundbite and nice. Oh, I should Yeah, I should tweet this right 1109 01:13:28,020 --> 01:13:28,500 away. 1110 01:13:29,430 --> 01:13:32,760 Yeah. And so yeah, there were I'm gonna put them on the apps 1111 01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,550 page. But that's everything. Like this is like a video thing. 1112 01:13:35,550 --> 01:13:38,220 I think they're consuming the soundbite tag and somehow 1113 01:13:38,700 --> 01:13:40,830 converting it into like a video clip. 1114 01:13:41,340 --> 01:13:42,600 I'm tweeting it right now. 1115 01:13:42,630 --> 01:13:43,650 That's good. Yeah, it's cool. 1116 01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:49,140 What's it gonna say? Oh, yes, make sure that that your your 1117 01:13:49,170 --> 01:13:53,760 features, etc is updated on the apps page. The way I think it 1118 01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,690 works is you create a pull request and the GitHub and then 1119 01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:59,880 we integrate it so that you can update when you have new 1120 01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:02,100 features make sure you're live make sure you're listed at all 1121 01:14:02,100 --> 01:14:07,740 actually make sure you're there Yeah. tell you why. Why don't we 1122 01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:14,490 open up the board room here and and I will bring 1123 01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:15,630 you this knee I 1124 01:14:15,630 --> 01:14:23,760 know right? Yeah, come on and guys will. Now we welcome to the 1125 01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,160 boardroom and to the board meeting the guys who I call the 1126 01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:29,400 Pirates of podcast hosting. We've got Mark Asquith, Kiran 1127 01:14:29,550 --> 01:14:33,450 McKee free from captivate FM Gentlemen, welcome to the 1128 01:14:33,450 --> 01:14:34,350 boardroom. 1129 01:14:35,580 --> 01:14:37,530 Hello there sir. Thank you for having us. It's 1130 01:14:37,530 --> 01:14:38,010 a pleasure. 1131 01:14:40,020 --> 01:14:43,020 That ladies and gentlemen is Mark who who may or may not be 1132 01:14:43,020 --> 01:14:45,210 doing most of the talking we don't know yet. Karen How are 1133 01:14:45,210 --> 01:14:45,540 you? 1134 01:14:46,590 --> 01:14:50,070 I'm okay. Thanks. backhoe samsa posh when it when it comes on 1135 01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:52,890 something I'm just like, you know in the background to keep 1136 01:14:52,890 --> 01:14:56,190 my cool like and do all the talking. It just works that way. 1137 01:14:58,950 --> 01:15:01,080 So y'all have a similar Relationship demand. Adam. 1138 01:15:01,110 --> 01:15:04,560 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, let's let him talk like curry talk as much 1139 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,490 as you want us. Hey guys, I'm so, so glad that you would join 1140 01:15:08,490 --> 01:15:12,270 us here in the board meeting, as we've been trying to speak with 1141 01:15:12,330 --> 01:15:15,900 gosh as as many people who were around independent podcasting, 1142 01:15:15,900 --> 01:15:21,330 but certainly podcasting 2.0 and you guys, I believe you co 1143 01:15:21,330 --> 01:15:25,980 founded captivate FM, which is branded as the world's only 1144 01:15:25,980 --> 01:15:29,880 growth oriented podcast host. Trademark no less. 1145 01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:35,010 It is indeed. And we did. We did. We co founded that back in 1146 01:15:35,790 --> 01:15:39,420 back in the day back in 2019. And then launched into into 1147 01:15:39,420 --> 01:15:44,370 better in August 2019. And I've been pedaling that catchphrase 1148 01:15:44,370 --> 01:15:46,770 ever since. But it's been a fun ride as Nikki's been it's been a 1149 01:15:46,770 --> 01:15:47,490 lot of fun doing it. 1150 01:15:48,540 --> 01:15:53,220 Yeah, it's been stressful. It's been fun. And I think it's by 1151 01:15:53,220 --> 01:15:57,360 far the most enjoyable thing I've done. And sometimes good. 1152 01:15:57,480 --> 01:16:01,080 Typically, what I've seen is people get into podcasting, 1153 01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,150 certainly from the technical side, because they had an itch, 1154 01:16:03,150 --> 01:16:05,760 they wanted to scratch themselves. You know, I see from 1155 01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,820 the hosting side, I don't think there's a single person we've, 1156 01:16:08,850 --> 01:16:12,060 we've, we've had in the boardroom, who hasn't said, 1157 01:16:12,060 --> 01:16:14,430 Well, you know, it's like I didn't, it was hard to make an 1158 01:16:14,430 --> 01:16:17,850 RSS feed. Or this sock drawer that sucked. I couldn't figure 1159 01:16:17,850 --> 01:16:20,550 this out. And I decided to do it myself or I was doing it and 1160 01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:22,290 then all of a sudden it turned into a business. What's the 1161 01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:22,980 story for you? 1162 01:16:24,810 --> 01:16:28,620 Yeah, that's pretty much the same. To be honest. He is. He is 1163 01:16:28,620 --> 01:16:31,560 the classic tale of like you said, scratching the itch fruit. 1164 01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,800 From our perspective, we sort of transitioned with an, I don't 1165 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,320 wanna say an inter in business, but a business that got us into 1166 01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,100 podcasting, relatively low risk to us. So we, we were part of a 1167 01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:45,540 design agency, working across the world, and I got into 1168 01:16:45,540 --> 01:16:48,660 podcasts, I'm really obsessive about things. Like if I love 1169 01:16:48,660 --> 01:16:51,300 something, I want to know everything about it. So now I'm 1170 01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:52,710 gonna be obsessed with MOOCs. 1171 01:16:55,260 --> 01:16:58,260 About my brand new theorem. And just before we started this, 1172 01:16:59,190 --> 01:17:02,490 yeah, so don't worry, it's an easy thing to be obsessed about. 1173 01:17:03,150 --> 01:17:04,980 And I'm looking forward to getting in. 1174 01:17:06,330 --> 01:17:11,520 We're, so what was the what was the edge was, and we're, maybe I 1175 01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:16,470 should step back, both working at a web services firm. 1176 01:17:17,190 --> 01:17:20,310 Actually, I've run some of those. was one more graphic 1177 01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:24,360 design one more code. Of the two of you? 1178 01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,600 Yeah, pretty much. Well, I was I was I was the owner of the 1179 01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,610 agency. I was one of the owners of the agency. And Karen was a 1180 01:17:29,610 --> 01:17:32,970 developer. And I remember getting into podcasting and 1181 01:17:32,970 --> 01:17:35,250 really sort of getting obsessed with and then I came to care and 1182 01:17:35,250 --> 01:17:38,820 one morning and said, Look, it seems really tough to kind of 1183 01:17:38,820 --> 01:17:41,130 figure out WordPress for podcasting. And people seem to 1184 01:17:41,130 --> 01:17:43,980 need help with it. Shall we spin up a bit of a service on the 1185 01:17:43,980 --> 01:17:46,710 side, and that was always started wasn't a kid. And we did 1186 01:17:46,710 --> 01:17:47,250 that. And we 1187 01:17:49,410 --> 01:17:52,350 did. And Karen, were you thinking, holy crap, what's this 1188 01:17:52,350 --> 01:17:55,350 guy doing? He's about to ruin the only gig that's paying is 1189 01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:58,800 gonna go off and be funky. Yeah. 1190 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:01,620 Well, I mean, you know, it's 1191 01:18:01,620 --> 01:18:05,940 like, I've always liked side projects. You know, I've always 1192 01:18:05,940 --> 01:18:08,520 liked something that I couldn't really, you know, get my teeth 1193 01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:14,670 into at night. And, you know, it was a problem. Yeah, yeah. You 1194 01:18:14,670 --> 01:18:18,510 know, it's a problem that's waiting to be solved. So now, as 1195 01:18:18,510 --> 01:18:21,240 soon as it can smell like, yeah, I'm really interested. I don't I 1196 01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,190 don't even think I said, I'll think about it. I'll just said 1197 01:18:23,190 --> 01:18:23,550 the other. 1198 01:18:26,220 --> 01:18:29,370 side project. Yeah, good side project makes the day job 1199 01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:30,120 tolerable, 1200 01:18:30,180 --> 01:18:31,920 you know? Exactly. 1201 01:18:32,130 --> 01:18:35,670 So what was the problem you were solving? Was it the simple 1202 01:18:35,670 --> 01:18:39,210 because again, just looking at how, looking at your branding 1203 01:18:39,210 --> 01:18:43,920 and what you do and what you're saying on on captivate.fm? What 1204 01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,070 was the problem? Was it ease of use was it lack of buzzwords, 1205 01:18:47,670 --> 01:18:50,220 excluding buzzwords and technical things? And this is 1206 01:18:50,220 --> 01:18:51,810 kind of what you're communicating to me on the 1207 01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:52,410 website? 1208 01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,250 Yeah, that's absolutely. And sort of the brand side of it. 1209 01:18:56,250 --> 01:18:58,710 The messaging side is, you mentioned, you know, is one, the 1210 01:18:58,710 --> 01:19:01,230 designer and one the coder, I'm sort of on the brand side, I'm a 1211 01:19:01,230 --> 01:19:05,340 terrible designer on a terrible code. But I'm certainly a little 1212 01:19:05,340 --> 01:19:08,490 bit more on the communication side. So it's the communications 1213 01:19:08,490 --> 01:19:13,020 it really is the simplicity in understanding the users. And I 1214 01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:16,200 think that translates through to how we build the system out and 1215 01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,620 how we put captivate together. Everything is just really, 1216 01:19:19,620 --> 01:19:22,710 really simple to understand. And, you know, if something's a 1217 01:19:22,710 --> 01:19:25,680 little bit more complex, we like to add the context around it, 1218 01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:29,370 why is it complex? And why can't it be reduced into the most 1219 01:19:29,370 --> 01:19:31,380 simple terms? So yeah, you're absolutely right. And Q and I 1220 01:19:31,380 --> 01:19:33,930 know that, that that came through in the, in the build as 1221 01:19:33,930 --> 01:19:35,430 well, didn't it? We're trying to stick to that. 1222 01:19:36,510 --> 01:19:39,870 Yeah. You know, from the start, you know, we always had the, we 1223 01:19:39,870 --> 01:19:43,770 always went into the mindset of what we were podcasters. You 1224 01:19:43,770 --> 01:19:46,290 know, we thankfully, you know, Mark had the show on and we had 1225 01:19:46,290 --> 01:19:50,250 a lot of users from Mike's at our previous business. They got 1226 01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:53,550 started and you know, in the podcasting space, so we had a 1227 01:19:53,550 --> 01:19:56,730 lot of users that we wanted to use and trial and, you know, we 1228 01:19:56,730 --> 01:19:59,070 just spoke to him and asked them kind of what what they wanted 1229 01:19:59,070 --> 01:20:01,590 and you know what, what did Wanting to podcasters. And we 1230 01:20:01,590 --> 01:20:04,230 just listened, you know, we opened his ears. And, you know, 1231 01:20:04,260 --> 01:20:07,170 we're at a point now where, you know, it's by far one of the 1232 01:20:07,170 --> 01:20:10,560 most easiest platforms, you know, to use in our, in our 1233 01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:11,220 opinion anyway, 1234 01:20:11,310 --> 01:20:15,450 what's the top five of things that people were saying they 1235 01:20:15,450 --> 01:20:19,680 wanted? This really does interest me for a whole bunch of 1236 01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,350 reasons. But I think this is one of the unique selling 1237 01:20:22,380 --> 01:20:26,130 propositions of any host is? Well, to me, it seems like it's 1238 01:20:26,910 --> 01:20:32,130 its ease of use features, and statistical reporting it does 1239 01:20:32,130 --> 01:20:36,030 that kind of merge with the top five that you guys saw? Yeah, 1240 01:20:36,090 --> 01:20:39,840 I think so. And there was a couple of underpinning things as 1241 01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:43,350 well. So there was sort of the tangible things that people 1242 01:20:43,350 --> 01:20:46,140 wanted to be able to see when they logged in. And also, you 1243 01:20:46,140 --> 01:20:48,180 know, without sounding crass, you know, they wanted to be 1244 01:20:48,180 --> 01:20:50,790 pitched those things. But I think some of the underlying 1245 01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:54,330 tenets of it were were very clearly the, like I said, the 1246 01:20:54,330 --> 01:20:59,130 communication, you know, and also sort of feeling part of the 1247 01:20:59,130 --> 01:21:01,740 brand and the company not feeling like they were buying 1248 01:21:01,740 --> 01:21:06,480 software from people that were, a lot of people are experienced 1249 01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:09,750 in this this alienation because they've been told how to do 1250 01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:12,600 podcasting, because it was, you know, it's theoretically very 1251 01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:15,510 technical. And we sort of said, well, it is very technical, but 1252 01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:18,870 sells a car, but you still enjoy driving the car, you don't have 1253 01:21:18,870 --> 01:21:21,480 to understand what happens under the hood. So it was that that 1254 01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:24,450 feeling of being a part of something that was vital. And 1255 01:21:24,450 --> 01:21:26,940 then the other thing, which Kiran and Karen's put a lot of 1256 01:21:26,940 --> 01:21:31,290 time into with the technical team, was a lack of stagnation. 1257 01:21:31,290 --> 01:21:34,890 Now, that came pretty, pretty quickly after we launched. 1258 01:21:35,070 --> 01:21:39,900 Insofar as we because we came out of MVP, we came out of this 1259 01:21:39,900 --> 01:21:43,860 beta phase, fairly quickly, we were we were releasing updates 1260 01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:48,390 really, really frequently. And people seem to really enjoy 1261 01:21:48,390 --> 01:21:50,430 that. So we went into that more, and we said, What do you know, 1262 01:21:50,430 --> 01:21:53,340 what actually will release either upgrades or features 1263 01:21:53,340 --> 01:21:56,850 every single week, and people really responded to that, 1264 01:21:56,850 --> 01:21:59,340 because they were, they were sort of worried that they will 1265 01:21:59,340 --> 01:22:02,250 miss it. And we've seen recently a lot more, you know, they were 1266 01:22:02,250 --> 01:22:05,190 concerned, they were missing? How on the latest thing that 1267 01:22:05,190 --> 01:22:08,220 would help them. And that really gravitated to captivate because 1268 01:22:08,220 --> 01:22:11,700 we, we were very forward thinking with the release of 1269 01:22:11,700 --> 01:22:14,190 sir. Q And that was a big one. I know, I had a lot of stress for 1270 01:22:14,190 --> 01:22:17,490 you in the team. And it's a challenge, but people seem to 1271 01:22:17,490 --> 01:22:19,590 like that in there. Yeah, I 1272 01:22:19,590 --> 01:22:23,250 think it's just, you know, being prepared to sometimes, you know, 1273 01:22:23,250 --> 01:22:28,470 just really increase, you know, the output. And it's not, we're 1274 01:22:28,470 --> 01:22:31,380 not talking massive pieces are built, you know, massive pieces 1275 01:22:31,380 --> 01:22:34,170 of tech that have been built, you know, just small, easy to 1276 01:22:34,170 --> 01:22:37,320 use things that can you know, be deployed on a, on a quick two 1277 01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,320 week or one week sprint, you know, it just makes a world of 1278 01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,630 difference to some podcasters. You know, even if, even if 1279 01:22:42,630 --> 01:22:46,170 you've only had 10, podcasters, that have asked you for it, you 1280 01:22:46,170 --> 01:22:49,530 know, if 10 people have asked you for it, then it's probably 1281 01:22:49,530 --> 01:22:52,590 happened to a lot more people, you know, and he's just, you 1282 01:22:52,590 --> 01:22:55,530 know, looking for those little easy to win ones. And yeah, it's 1283 01:22:55,530 --> 01:22:57,690 stressful, but I think he's been, you know, worth every 1284 01:22:57,690 --> 01:22:58,620 every step of that. 1285 01:22:59,190 --> 01:23:01,770 I like I like that approach. Because you have, you know, a 1286 01:23:01,770 --> 01:23:04,650 few different in the software world, you have a couple of 1287 01:23:04,650 --> 01:23:10,380 different mindsets out there you have Well, if if anybody asks 1288 01:23:10,380 --> 01:23:12,720 for it, I'm going to put I'm going to consider it. And then 1289 01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:15,420 if a few more asked for it, I'm going to take it seriously. But 1290 01:23:15,420 --> 01:23:18,870 then you have another mindset of, well, I'm not really we're 1291 01:23:18,870 --> 01:23:21,840 not really going to put it on our roadmap until some, some 1292 01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:25,860 overwhelming majority of our users or our customers want it. 1293 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,820 And I think, Well, you know, you can understand the logic and the 1294 01:23:29,820 --> 01:23:33,930 reasoning behind both of those. But really, I've always leaned 1295 01:23:33,930 --> 01:23:38,850 towards what you're saying, which is if anybody wants it, no 1296 01:23:38,850 --> 01:23:42,300 matter how much you're taking seriously. 1297 01:23:44,340 --> 01:23:49,200 Yeah, it's a challenge to, to make sure that everyone feels 1298 01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:52,410 part of it. And I think that's really important for a brand, 1299 01:23:52,500 --> 01:23:55,230 especially a brand new podcast in this built itself on being 1300 01:23:55,230 --> 01:24:00,750 open and as inclusive as he can be continually. And one of the 1301 01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:04,620 things that we always try to do and we always focus on is is 1302 01:24:04,620 --> 01:24:09,390 overlaying the requests with a sense of intuition. And 1303 01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:14,280 basically, going at it from the perspective or we'll look, can I 1304 01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:17,700 see how we would use this as podcasters. Now this sounds very 1305 01:24:17,700 --> 01:24:21,420 simplistic, but genuinely would we use this feature today? Like 1306 01:24:21,420 --> 01:24:25,560 we put a couple of features out like the single sponsor, single 1307 01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,350 click sponsor kit, which is very, very simple feature. It's 1308 01:24:28,350 --> 01:24:31,830 just a nicely designed PDF that automatically generates when you 1309 01:24:31,830 --> 01:24:35,700 click a button. Oh, awesome. headline stats. Smart. Yeah. 1310 01:24:36,060 --> 01:24:39,630 It's simple. But the the thing that it solves is not getting 1311 01:24:39,630 --> 01:24:42,300 the PDF, the thing that it solves is the education around 1312 01:24:42,300 --> 01:24:44,100 what to put in that PDF. 1313 01:24:44,130 --> 01:24:47,430 And that yes, and this is something I've noticed, then 1314 01:24:47,460 --> 01:24:49,920 you're just kind of jogging my memory about one of the big 1315 01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:54,000 things in podcast hosting seems to be the communication with the 1316 01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:58,530 customers and the learning and the knowledge transfer and it's 1317 01:24:58,530 --> 01:25:02,370 done in different ways. I'm most proud I think does a very, very 1318 01:25:02,370 --> 01:25:08,490 good job with having some help desk supported 24. Seven, I 1319 01:25:08,490 --> 01:25:13,620 believe. They do educational podcast themselves. They have 1320 01:25:13,620 --> 01:25:16,920 blog posts, they do very frequent outreach and email 1321 01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:21,240 communications. Then you have blueberry, for example, the 1322 01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:24,240 blueberry, you can I think, just schedule a meeting with Todd. 1323 01:25:25,170 --> 01:25:27,900 And he'll walk you through anything, anything that you 1324 01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:31,650 want. And Lipson, you can probably buy some stock on what 1325 01:25:31,650 --> 01:25:37,470 you do over there with them. I'm just joking, you're forced. So 1326 01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:41,400 is that the two areas you focus on? Or is that really the main 1327 01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:46,200 area you focus on? And how time intensive and cost? Just what's 1328 01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:49,740 the cost associated with that it because people seem to podcasts 1329 01:25:49,740 --> 01:25:53,310 or seem to really want to have a friendly voice to just have 1330 01:25:53,310 --> 01:25:56,430 them? Yeah, it's okay. here's, here's what's happening. Here's 1331 01:25:56,430 --> 01:25:59,010 how it will shake out or here's what you do, or here's what 1332 01:25:59,010 --> 01:25:59,790 button you push. 1333 01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,790 Well, that's a really insightful final section to that to that 1334 01:26:05,790 --> 01:26:09,990 question, though, because that was the key thing for us. So you 1335 01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:12,450 remember earlier, I mentioned that I'm a fairly obsessive guy 1336 01:26:12,450 --> 01:26:15,360 when it comes to things that I enjoy. And Kieran is the one 1337 01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:19,560 that kind of steadies me. He, and he's I mean, he's the talent 1338 01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:21,630 when it comes to the building as well, I couldn't do anything 1339 01:26:21,630 --> 01:26:25,410 without him. And it is. What's interesting from from my side is 1340 01:26:25,410 --> 01:26:30,990 that the other part of my personality is to be very loud, 1341 01:26:31,260 --> 01:26:33,390 about things that I really enjoy. And that's what happened 1342 01:26:33,390 --> 01:26:36,360 in podcasting. Like back in 2013 2014. When I got into it 1343 01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:39,990 before, before Karen and I got together, I was just rather than 1344 01:26:39,990 --> 01:26:43,020 sort of, let's use microphones as an example, rather than 1345 01:26:43,020 --> 01:26:45,750 saying, look, here's the answer to the question, which 1346 01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:49,020 microphone Do you want to use? And the answer is any one of 1347 01:26:49,020 --> 01:26:53,580 these for these 10 reasons, my approach is a person is just boy 1348 01:26:53,580 --> 01:26:57,510 use this one, just use that one. And then if you don't like that 1349 01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:59,850 one, here are three other options. But your answer is 1350 01:26:59,850 --> 01:27:04,590 this. And we didn't realize that that was building the captivate 1351 01:27:04,590 --> 01:27:06,870 brand. We were traveling around the world, we would do, you 1352 01:27:06,870 --> 01:27:10,020 know, primarily us and going to the podcasting conferences, and 1353 01:27:10,410 --> 01:27:14,670 I was doing my podcast around podcasting and that the 1354 01:27:14,670 --> 01:27:18,540 outspoken nature of cured and I together the thing that sort of 1355 01:27:18,540 --> 01:27:21,780 locally tours, yes, is in a little bit of hot water, because 1356 01:27:22,260 --> 01:27:26,460 ice is a relatively small place we live that was the thing that 1357 01:27:26,910 --> 01:27:29,400 started to get us noticed, because people liked the 1358 01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,970 clarity. So yeah, it was it's the content, it's the the 1359 01:27:32,970 --> 01:27:37,500 education we do one thing that we've done since 2015 is we do 1360 01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:41,100 every Friday, just an open office hours on Facebook, I've 1361 01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:44,100 done it every single Friday for the last six years where people 1362 01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:47,520 can just turn up and, and just, you know, ask me questions and 1363 01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:49,530 dismiss what they want to discuss in in podcast and and 1364 01:27:49,530 --> 01:27:52,080 that that's sort of that's the thing that people tell you 1365 01:27:52,110 --> 01:27:54,210 doesn't look and you shouldn't be doing it. 1366 01:27:55,530 --> 01:27:58,770 Amazingly, amazingly, you're doing it right now with us, it's 1367 01:27:58,770 --> 01:28:02,910 the exact same concept is let's just talk about what the heck 1368 01:28:02,910 --> 01:28:06,090 we're doing. Let's bring people in to talk about what they want 1369 01:28:06,090 --> 01:28:09,360 what they need, which is going to be my next question after I 1370 01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:13,410 lead you down right towards the 800 pound gorilla, the elephant 1371 01:28:13,410 --> 01:28:19,410 in the room the what we've been able to digest so far of the 1372 01:28:19,410 --> 01:28:24,360 apple announcement with their subscriptions, hosting, etc, 1373 01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:26,580 etc. Any takeaways for you guys on that yet? 1374 01:28:28,380 --> 01:28:32,760 I think he's fascinating that they've they've put the creator 1375 01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,360 first i think that's that's refreshing to see that they've 1376 01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:39,480 done that but there's been a few things where it'll be nice to 1377 01:28:39,480 --> 01:28:41,610 get a little bit more light shed on them. We've got a couple of 1378 01:28:41,610 --> 01:28:44,490 things as a hosting company. We've got a couple more bits of 1379 01:28:44,490 --> 01:28:47,040 data to come through and briefings to do at the time of 1380 01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:49,710 recording this we've not yet not yet had those chats 1381 01:28:50,940 --> 01:28:53,220 but I think our feelings with Apple themselves. 1382 01:28:53,879 --> 01:28:58,649 Yeah, the podcast host brief into just to kind of get so they 1383 01:28:58,889 --> 01:29:01,259 also they did reach out and and giving you guys a briefing. 1384 01:29:02,340 --> 01:29:04,230 Yes, we booked in for that week. 1385 01:29:04,230 --> 01:29:08,700 Sometimes those motherfuckers they didn't they didn't give us 1386 01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:12,240 a heads up anything. They used to call me all the time. They 1387 01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:13,440 completely shut me out. 1388 01:29:14,190 --> 01:29:17,190 Oh, no, it was after the fact just to be clear. Oh, okay. So 1389 01:29:17,220 --> 01:29:19,590 it wasn't pre launch. Concurrent? 1390 01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,850 Yeah, cuz I saw on the podcast Connect, you know, there's a 1391 01:29:23,850 --> 01:29:26,250 little thing like we encourage you to use third party hosts 1392 01:29:26,250 --> 01:29:31,260 like, okay, Gee, thanks, guys. just felt a little dirty the way 1393 01:29:31,260 --> 01:29:32,010 they did that. 1394 01:29:32,370 --> 01:29:34,710 That's something I wanted to ask about right off the bat was 1395 01:29:34,710 --> 01:29:38,130 that, you know, from what we can tell already, and of course, 1396 01:29:38,130 --> 01:29:42,450 this is all very new from what we've been able to glean. I 1397 01:29:42,450 --> 01:29:45,960 mean, Apple now is a podcast hosting company. And you know, 1398 01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:49,590 if you go in there into your dashboard, in the podcast 1399 01:29:49,590 --> 01:29:52,080 connect or whatever the new version of that Flight, a new 1400 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:56,640 flavor that is, you could technically create a quote 1401 01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:00,600 unquote subscription podcast but not charged for it. At that 1402 01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,930 point, Apple is your podcast host. I mean that that's a 1403 01:30:03,930 --> 01:30:07,290 little, that's a sort of a confrontational move on their 1404 01:30:07,290 --> 01:30:09,210 part against the hosting company. 1405 01:30:10,710 --> 01:30:13,710 Yeah, something that Ken and I chatted on yesterday for this, 1406 01:30:13,830 --> 01:30:18,420 this very reason to was sort of the way you could use it to do 1407 01:30:18,420 --> 01:30:21,630 that very, very thing. And this all led us to a number of 1408 01:30:21,630 --> 01:30:24,930 questions, you know, around, we know that these feeds aren't 1409 01:30:24,930 --> 01:30:27,450 exclusive to Apple, the commission elsewhere and so on, 1410 01:30:27,450 --> 01:30:30,600 from what we can glean. I mean, I might be wrong with that, as 1411 01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:34,200 things progress, but it came with a few question for us as 1412 01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:36,120 well, I'm Karen, you can you can speak to this a lot more, 1413 01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:38,730 because you're much more technical than I but around, you 1414 01:30:38,730 --> 01:30:44,190 know, further reporting, or user agents downloads and data from 1415 01:30:44,220 --> 01:30:47,160 elsewhere. You know, does Apple want to become that and the 1416 01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:50,370 support those that's inherent to that as well, you know, how does 1417 01:30:50,370 --> 01:30:53,430 that work? The first second line and third line support for death 1418 01:30:53,430 --> 01:30:55,920 to their podcast is there's so many, there's complexities to 1419 01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:58,350 this in here. And I know, you, you and I spoke about just 1420 01:30:58,350 --> 01:31:01,770 getting back from Spotify to Apple, for example. 1421 01:31:02,759 --> 01:31:03,869 Yeah, I mean, I mean, 1422 01:31:04,950 --> 01:31:07,710 the only real way I can see Apple becoming a media host, is 1423 01:31:07,980 --> 01:31:10,980 it being a separate entity from Apple or been like, you know, an 1424 01:31:10,980 --> 01:31:15,330 apple hosting service that goes include an RSS feed that is 1425 01:31:15,330 --> 01:31:20,580 usable in other areas. From what I've seen, it appears that I 1426 01:31:20,580 --> 01:31:25,200 think you have got to charge for it, you can go premium, freemium 1427 01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:29,640 sorry, and, you know, have free long trials and stuff. But, you 1428 01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:32,730 know, obviously, I'm still I'm not privy to the entire set of 1429 01:31:32,730 --> 01:31:34,770 information yet access, you certainly obviously, just coming 1430 01:31:34,770 --> 01:31:38,760 out. But, you know, from my understanding, one of the 1431 01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:42,300 episodes at least should should be at least premium, or paid 1432 01:31:42,300 --> 01:31:46,020 for. But I mean, some of the stuff on it is fairly decent, 1433 01:31:46,050 --> 01:31:47,640 you know, I've been looking today, and there's a lot of 1434 01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,760 stuff that complements RSS feeds. And that's the That, to 1435 01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,770 me is the good bit, you know, complementing an RSS feed by, 1436 01:31:55,770 --> 01:31:58,860 you know, the app free episodes, for example, I really like the 1437 01:31:58,860 --> 01:32:03,300 idea of it, you know, been able to provide your subscribers an 1438 01:32:03,300 --> 01:32:06,030 ad free version, you know, when no dynamic content and you know, 1439 01:32:06,030 --> 01:32:10,170 just actual, actual content, just proper content. So that I 1440 01:32:10,170 --> 01:32:12,570 think that's, that's interesting. But the host inside 1441 01:32:12,570 --> 01:32:17,550 just, it raises a few questions from our input, you know, it's 1442 01:32:17,550 --> 01:32:18,840 just whatever will happen 1443 01:32:20,310 --> 01:32:24,540 is the apple clearly has no bandwidth issues, they have a 1444 01:32:24,570 --> 01:32:28,290 new they have a global CDN, they, they're very, very 1445 01:32:28,290 --> 01:32:32,730 familiar with the getting data from their end to consumers. And 1446 01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:38,070 this and podcasting will be just a very small addition to that. 1447 01:32:38,850 --> 01:32:46,380 To me, just looking at what I've seen so far. This is where they 1448 01:32:46,380 --> 01:32:50,910 may have not thought it's interesting. So when we had, for 1449 01:32:50,910 --> 01:32:55,860 instance, the breeze, lightning wallet, integrate podcasting, 1450 01:32:56,280 --> 01:33:01,470 what this very professionally run organizations small in 1451 01:33:01,470 --> 01:33:03,960 Israel, but they man, they know how to develop, and they have, 1452 01:33:03,990 --> 01:33:07,260 you know, guidelines and processes, and they develop 1453 01:33:07,260 --> 01:33:10,560 great products. But they had no idea what they were getting into 1454 01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:13,380 with podcasting. And one of the one of the first things that 1455 01:33:13,380 --> 01:33:16,410 happened. And we have a lot of experience with that. And you 1456 01:33:16,410 --> 01:33:18,540 know, working with all these different podcasts, app 1457 01:33:18,540 --> 01:33:22,500 developers, the first thing that happened is, someone said, Well, 1458 01:33:22,500 --> 01:33:26,130 this is not rage, I see this podcast listed, I never want to 1459 01:33:26,130 --> 01:33:30,510 see this horrible person and my podcast app, and the company 1460 01:33:30,510 --> 01:33:33,990 breeze was paralyzed. because they'd never seen this before. 1461 01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:37,260 They have no idea how to respond to it. And Brenda immediately 1462 01:33:37,260 --> 01:33:40,050 reached out to me like, well, what is it? Well, you know, I 1463 01:33:40,050 --> 01:33:42,810 actually should have prepared you a little bit better, round 1464 01:33:42,810 --> 01:33:48,090 way to say, what Apple has no experience in zero whatsoever. 1465 01:33:48,090 --> 01:33:52,380 In fact, no Silicon Valley, big tech companies have that is 1466 01:33:52,410 --> 01:33:57,630 actually communicating with your customer who needs help. You 1467 01:33:57,630 --> 01:34:00,960 can't get help from Apple yet you can. It's like, well, I 1468 01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:04,350 can't figure out how to publish this. It's not working. When I 1469 01:34:04,350 --> 01:34:07,680 press the button, their answer will be make an appointment with 1470 01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:11,940 the Genius Bar. I'm not kidding. They do not know how to do that. 1471 01:34:11,940 --> 01:34:16,410 I think that is it. Just looking at the news. The people they've 1472 01:34:16,410 --> 01:34:19,260 hired, you know, they've hired really smart people who were in 1473 01:34:19,260 --> 01:34:22,920 programming and audio production. And they understand 1474 01:34:22,950 --> 01:34:27,630 NPR and high end stuff. But they don't know what what customer 1475 01:34:27,630 --> 01:34:32,100 services, they just is for this for services. I don't think 1476 01:34:32,100 --> 01:34:34,050 they'll be able to I don't even think they know what's going to 1477 01:34:34,050 --> 01:34:34,410 hit him. 1478 01:34:36,210 --> 01:34:38,490 Do you know it's fascinating to watch that and because there's 1479 01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:43,590 there's so much that we see day to day around what is going on 1480 01:34:43,590 --> 01:34:47,610 at the top end of podcast in the two 3% of podcasting that gets 1481 01:34:47,610 --> 01:34:48,990 the headlines. Yeah, I'd 1482 01:34:48,990 --> 01:34:53,250 say 0.2%. But yeah, your point is made. I think it's smaller. 1483 01:34:54,420 --> 01:34:54,870 Yeah, I 1484 01:34:54,870 --> 01:34:57,030 think I think you're probably right. And it's fascinating 1485 01:34:57,030 --> 01:35:01,830 because as we know the industry made up of people that aren't 1486 01:35:01,830 --> 01:35:04,590 that the hobbyists or the enthusiasts, they're the people 1487 01:35:04,590 --> 01:35:06,660 that are on the periphery is because they're working and 1488 01:35:06,660 --> 01:35:08,790 they're doing what they do. And they love doing this thing, you 1489 01:35:08,790 --> 01:35:12,090 know, and it's, you're absolutely right in the customer 1490 01:35:12,090 --> 01:35:14,370 support. And we saw this through captivate, you know, Kira, and I 1491 01:35:14,370 --> 01:35:17,190 still work support, even though we have a team because, well, 1492 01:35:17,190 --> 01:35:20,790 two reasons. Number one, you've got to be in touch with the 1493 01:35:20,790 --> 01:35:23,130 people that are using the platform if you're going to 1494 01:35:23,130 --> 01:35:27,420 develop the platform. And number two, the time that people have 1495 01:35:27,420 --> 01:35:30,180 to produce their podcast is so valuable to them, you know, if 1496 01:35:30,180 --> 01:35:32,820 you're producing a niche knitting podcast here in the UK, 1497 01:35:32,820 --> 01:35:35,700 and I've actually got a friend that does that. She can only 1498 01:35:35,700 --> 01:35:40,050 produce two hours per week, but it's so important to to do that, 1499 01:35:40,050 --> 01:35:43,800 then when, when the service provider isn't there when she 1500 01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:48,000 needs them. He doesn't just damage your experience with the 1501 01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:51,150 service provider disheartens, or against the media and the 1502 01:35:51,150 --> 01:35:53,640 production and she starts to to look elsewhere. 1503 01:35:53,670 --> 01:35:56,100 That's a good point. That's a really good point. 1504 01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,360 It's such a odd scenario, because you know, very often, 1505 01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:03,390 and we I'm sure we all see this, you know, we see podcasting 1506 01:36:03,390 --> 01:36:08,250 being compared to everything from YouTube, to clubhouse. And 1507 01:36:08,250 --> 01:36:12,990 it's not that it's not the same, because YouTube does his thing. 1508 01:36:13,260 --> 01:36:16,260 And he is not assumed the service provider sits in the 1509 01:36:16,260 --> 01:36:18,600 middle and provide you with the hand holding that you need to 1510 01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:19,590 enjoy everything. So 1511 01:36:19,590 --> 01:36:22,800 all they do is take you down or D monetize you if you're a bad 1512 01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:25,860 boy, that's that's their entire customer service right there. 1513 01:36:26,130 --> 01:36:29,520 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And doing it the other way, if you 1514 01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:31,830 know, clubhouse and so on. It's an app, you know, you log on, 1515 01:36:31,830 --> 01:36:34,290 and you're expected to have the app experience and you sort of 1516 01:36:34,290 --> 01:36:38,130 know because it's an app. But if something goes wrong, the 1517 01:36:38,130 --> 01:36:41,670 experience of support is more than likely going to be a little 1518 01:36:41,670 --> 01:36:44,520 frustrating. But it's an app, it's kind of it's fine. It's 1519 01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:47,250 sort of throwaway, we're all right with our podcast is in 1520 01:36:47,250 --> 01:36:49,830 this weird middle ground where it must matter so much to 1521 01:36:49,830 --> 01:36:53,220 people, because they believe in it. But you can't take away the 1522 01:36:53,220 --> 01:36:56,430 personality of it and that your eye is a missing piece of the 1523 01:36:56,430 --> 01:36:57,180 puzzle, I think, 1524 01:36:57,719 --> 01:37:02,249 yes, I feel like the big tech companies, as a whole have taken 1525 01:37:02,249 --> 01:37:06,779 on this mindset of, well, if we're big enough, we can just 1526 01:37:07,409 --> 01:37:12,869 basically engineer our way out of customer support. Yes, we 1527 01:37:12,869 --> 01:37:16,499 can, we can throw enough money and enough developers at a 1528 01:37:16,499 --> 01:37:20,459 problem to where eventually we can write enough documentation 1529 01:37:20,819 --> 01:37:26,549 and create a product that works with enough granularity to make 1530 01:37:26,549 --> 01:37:29,999 it where nobody needs help anymore. And that is, that is 1531 01:37:29,999 --> 01:37:33,689 bullshit. That doesn't work. You can't do that. And you see it 1532 01:37:33,689 --> 01:37:37,199 day in and day out with with big tech, their answer is basically 1533 01:37:37,229 --> 01:37:42,479 is always rtfm. And you know what? That's just not a good, 1534 01:37:42,509 --> 01:37:45,209 that's just not always the right answer. People, people need 1535 01:37:45,209 --> 01:37:49,049 help. I mean, we, we have, you know, we're a, we're a donation 1536 01:37:49,049 --> 01:37:52,409 based thing. We just do this as a side gig. I'm doing this 1537 01:37:52,409 --> 01:37:58,169 podcast on my lunch break. But we still have to be near we 1538 01:37:58,169 --> 01:38:01,139 still have users and people use our API and our index and we 1539 01:38:01,139 --> 01:38:04,739 still when they pop into our mastodon group with with 1540 01:38:04,829 --> 01:38:08,429 questions or problems, you know, we get we get somebody gotta 1541 01:38:08,429 --> 01:38:11,009 give them an answer. I mean, we can't just say, you know, oh, 1542 01:38:11,009 --> 01:38:13,829 well, you know, rtfm I mean, here's the good, here's 1543 01:38:13,830 --> 01:38:15,750 the GitHub. Yeah, 1544 01:38:15,780 --> 01:38:19,440 yeah. I mean, that really doesn't cut it. And I think that 1545 01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:22,830 that really if you chop that thing out of the podcasting 1546 01:38:22,830 --> 01:38:25,470 world, you damage podcasting infinitely 1547 01:38:26,580 --> 01:38:32,640 Do you guys have majority UK customers or is across the board 1548 01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:34,800 from all countries? What what's prevalent 1549 01:38:36,180 --> 01:38:40,950 these primarily us Oh really? Well. No, it's not and when I 1550 01:38:40,950 --> 01:38:44,190 say primarily I'm not talking you know, 8020 or 90 1080 sort 1551 01:38:44,190 --> 01:38:49,770 of 60% us and then here and I think what 25 30% uk and then 1552 01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:50,550 the remainder 1553 01:38:50,850 --> 01:38:57,690 yeah 25% uk or 20% Uk then I think quite a bit in Europe 1554 01:38:58,650 --> 01:39:01,830 quite a bit in Australia as well and I think with Australia and 1555 01:39:01,830 --> 01:39:03,750 New Zealand we're starting to get Are you 1556 01:39:03,750 --> 01:39:06,870 guys are which is interesting. You guys a UK company. 1557 01:39:08,460 --> 01:39:11,490 Yes, we sat here in the UK right now. Yeah, founded in Sheffield. 1558 01:39:11,490 --> 01:39:14,910 And although a lot of people do think we're from the US because 1559 01:39:15,300 --> 01:39:19,110 the only time they see us is at podcasting conferences so they 1560 01:39:19,110 --> 01:39:21,330 attend like the one that they attend each year we're always 1561 01:39:21,330 --> 01:39:24,240 out so they always assume that we're in the US but yes, 1562 01:39:24,810 --> 01:39:28,380 you have a great you have a great name it's very it feels 1563 01:39:28,380 --> 01:39:31,050 very American to me that's why and to me when I when I hit 1564 01:39:31,050 --> 01:39:33,780 captivate FM like these guys are the pirates man. They're like 1565 01:39:33,780 --> 01:39:36,870 they got it. I don't know if that's intentional if that was 1566 01:39:36,870 --> 01:39:40,230 what you want, but it always gives me a kind of a this is a 1567 01:39:40,230 --> 01:39:42,420 cool guys. I want to be with captivate. They're doing 1568 01:39:42,420 --> 01:39:42,930 something. 1569 01:39:43,890 --> 01:39:46,530 Oh, well thank you very much. That was actually Jess Koppelman 1570 01:39:46,950 --> 01:39:50,040 of she podcasts that sort of captivate we were, we were 1571 01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:51,960 chatting, we did a little bit of work together and Jess and I 1572 01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:54,090 were going to put some content out and we were thinking of a 1573 01:39:54,090 --> 01:39:56,040 name for it and she said we should call it captivate. 1574 01:39:56,370 --> 01:39:59,880 Because you want to want to captivate your audience and she 1575 01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:02,550 said Jess, can I use that for the hosting platform? And just 1576 01:40:02,550 --> 01:40:05,430 be in jest you said yes. Interesting. But then, yeah, she 1577 01:40:05,430 --> 01:40:07,110 never lets me forget that. He was done. 1578 01:40:07,650 --> 01:40:08,370 publish this, but 1579 01:40:09,389 --> 01:40:13,439 you both live in northern England. Yeah. Yes, no. Well, I 1580 01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:16,799 asked for very specific reason because Dave and I, although 1581 01:40:17,009 --> 01:40:19,379 we're not new to this, we've we've never really done this 1582 01:40:19,379 --> 01:40:22,559 with guys from the UK. And I think it's, I think it's time 1583 01:40:22,559 --> 01:40:23,369 for some pots. 1584 01:40:24,180 --> 01:40:25,770 And now it's time for us to 1585 01:40:27,060 --> 01:40:28,020 namespace 1586 01:40:28,050 --> 01:40:30,900 we're doing it with British guys. I'm sorry, guys from 1587 01:40:30,900 --> 01:40:33,090 England. Don't want to mess that up. 1588 01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:33,990 Yeah. 1589 01:40:35,010 --> 01:40:40,170 Be very careful. Let's talk podcasting. 2.0. Dave? 1590 01:40:40,500 --> 01:40:44,220 Yeah, yeah, we y'all were one of the first groups to jump on 1591 01:40:44,220 --> 01:40:47,940 board with with the indexes and start, you know, making plans to 1592 01:40:48,090 --> 01:40:53,490 get onto the namespace tags. And one thing I want to bring up 1593 01:40:53,490 --> 01:40:59,040 those Kieran you put in, you proposed a trailer tag? Is that 1594 01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:02,010 something that your your customers are asking for is 1595 01:41:02,010 --> 01:41:04,140 like, Where Where did that need arise for you? 1596 01:41:05,550 --> 01:41:08,010 is another one from Mark, actually, you know, one of those 1597 01:41:08,220 --> 01:41:10,950 good ideas that you know, come from myself. And Mark just 1598 01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:14,970 chatted about it? Yes, comment before where you know, the whole 1599 01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:19,740 300 episodes on one feed, and then your trailer drops off, and 1600 01:41:19,740 --> 01:41:21,420 then you've got no access to your trailer. So then you've 1601 01:41:21,420 --> 01:41:25,290 kind of got a pack around it by changing the published day or, 1602 01:41:25,770 --> 01:41:28,950 you know, doing something a bit more manual. So yeah, it come up 1603 01:41:28,950 --> 01:41:29,940 from from that edema? 1604 01:41:32,130 --> 01:41:35,010 Yeah, yeah, it was, it was one of those those challenges, I 1605 01:41:35,010 --> 01:41:38,070 think with the seasons as well, when when Apple first introduced 1606 01:41:38,100 --> 01:41:43,200 the ability to pop something in as a season. I was, at the time, 1607 01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:45,030 I remember doing a talk at podcast movement. And I was 1608 01:41:45,030 --> 01:41:47,970 talking about how it's bad made my show. But my archives 1609 01:41:47,970 --> 01:41:52,230 seasonal, whereby i'd split the feed what kept my original feed 1610 01:41:52,230 --> 01:41:54,870 from a new show. And then I'd sort of split and categorize 1611 01:41:54,870 --> 01:41:57,780 things into these evergreen seasons. And it felt quite cool 1612 01:41:57,780 --> 01:42:00,060 a time when Apple came along. And just, you know, there are 1613 01:42:00,060 --> 01:42:03,630 new seasonal options. Okay, well, thank you for that. And it 1614 01:42:03,630 --> 01:42:07,110 was it was on the back of that a trailer. I'm a big fan of 1615 01:42:07,110 --> 01:42:10,260 trailers. Whenever we talk to new podcasters about launching 1616 01:42:10,260 --> 01:42:12,840 their show, I sort of get personally, because my 1617 01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:15,300 background is sort of brand and marketing, I'll get a little bit 1618 01:42:15,300 --> 01:42:18,420 frustrated with the social media marketing that podcasters do, 1619 01:42:18,420 --> 01:42:25,680 which is always I have new show I have new guests. Which is 1620 01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:28,230 tough. You know, you'd be browsing Twitter, I don't want 1621 01:42:28,230 --> 01:42:30,330 to listen to a 15 minute episode, because I'm busy, you 1622 01:42:30,330 --> 01:42:33,330 know, but give me a teaser. But I saw the trailer thing is 1623 01:42:33,780 --> 01:42:36,840 something that could be expanded and Kirin's. I'll be honest with 1624 01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:39,270 you here is downplaying his part in that I just said, wouldn't it 1625 01:42:39,270 --> 01:42:41,880 be cool to have trailers that were better, and he spent that 1626 01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:44,580 entire thing out? So I think you've been a bit coy back here. 1627 01:42:45,930 --> 01:42:49,050 Well, I think tags that are often a phrase, wherever I think 1628 01:42:49,050 --> 01:42:52,230 tags that originate from hosts, though, are, are extremely 1629 01:42:52,230 --> 01:42:56,070 valuable, because it's a direct pipeline to, you know, to needs 1630 01:42:56,070 --> 01:43:01,440 like real world needs. And I think the current definition of 1631 01:43:01,440 --> 01:43:05,490 that in the proposal, and I think it's an it's a slam dunk 1632 01:43:05,490 --> 01:43:08,580 for me, nobody's really had a single problem with it at all. 1633 01:43:08,730 --> 01:43:11,670 But the current way that is structured is that you would be 1634 01:43:11,670 --> 01:43:15,360 able to, to address a trailer, which would be a separate audio 1635 01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:19,350 file, and then you it would tie into the season tags. So you can 1636 01:43:19,350 --> 01:43:22,140 say, you know, you have a trailer for season one and 1637 01:43:22,140 --> 01:43:24,870 another one for season two. And that kind of thing. Does that 1638 01:43:25,020 --> 01:43:29,700 kind of fit the scope of what you're looking for? Yeah, my 1639 01:43:31,710 --> 01:43:32,790 God, so I can jump in? 1640 01:43:33,570 --> 01:43:36,660 No, no, no, I said you could do most It's okay. But now you you 1641 01:43:36,660 --> 01:43:43,500 interrupt, he's fine. So I'm dealing with guys. Not from a 1642 01:43:43,500 --> 01:43:46,890 technical point of view. Now he's he's perfect, you know, 1643 01:43:47,220 --> 01:43:49,350 perfect. Mark's point of view. 1644 01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:55,320 Here my point of view is more about I'm really keen on the the 1645 01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:58,320 acquisition flow of listeners, how we acquire listeners and 1646 01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:01,950 turn them into to actual subscribers and funds. And I 1647 01:44:01,950 --> 01:44:04,650 think anytime you can give someone an easy entry point, and 1648 01:44:04,650 --> 01:44:07,350 the spec is perfect for it, because I think that the 1649 01:44:07,350 --> 01:44:09,450 inherent issue at the minute with trailers is that you've got 1650 01:44:09,450 --> 01:44:12,210 one single entry point, but it doesn't fit all types of 1651 01:44:12,210 --> 01:44:16,560 podcast. Whereas what I love about the new spec is that if 1652 01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:19,380 you do produce an audio drama, or a fictional podcast in 1653 01:44:19,380 --> 01:44:23,460 seasons, or you've got different types, you know, maybe a sort of 1654 01:44:23,460 --> 01:44:25,860 Black Mirror esque where everything's a little different. 1655 01:44:26,460 --> 01:44:28,650 It gives you multiple entry points where you can really 1656 01:44:28,650 --> 01:44:32,640 start to do some marketing, which I think is problematic for 1657 01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,190 most podcasters. So I think expect fantastically, and I 1658 01:44:35,190 --> 01:44:37,080 think I don't think it's a surprise, there's not been much 1659 01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:37,740 pushback on it. 1660 01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:42,030 Well, that that brings up another thing. So the one of the 1661 01:44:42,030 --> 01:44:44,100 things that may have been overlooked with all the stuff 1662 01:44:44,100 --> 01:44:49,470 from Apple, their announcement, because it has been it's been so 1663 01:44:49,470 --> 01:44:52,110 disruptive on a technical level. One of the things that may have 1664 01:44:52,110 --> 01:44:56,640 been overlooked is the fact that they have a new this thing 1665 01:44:56,640 --> 01:45:00,720 called an app called Smart play button where it says Hosted take 1666 01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:07,140 you sort of into if it's an episodic podcast is supposed to 1667 01:45:07,140 --> 01:45:09,390 take you to sort of, or excuse me, a seasonal podcast is 1668 01:45:09,390 --> 01:45:13,260 supposed to take you to like, episode one and start from there 1669 01:45:13,470 --> 01:45:16,470 of that season. And if it's episodic, it just starts you out 1670 01:45:16,470 --> 01:45:20,340 at the at the most recent, and it has sort of different, you 1671 01:45:20,340 --> 01:45:22,950 can just hit play and pick up from where you need to be. And I 1672 01:45:22,950 --> 01:45:27,030 think that is something that could be in the namespace in the 1673 01:45:27,030 --> 01:45:32,160 RSS feed as well, you could say, Okay, I think we can define some 1674 01:45:32,460 --> 01:45:39,420 sort of guidance to the app to let the creator decide where the 1675 01:45:39,420 --> 01:45:42,210 listener is going to have the best experience of starting 1676 01:45:42,210 --> 01:45:46,380 from. And I think that goes along, sort of with the trailers 1677 01:45:46,380 --> 01:45:49,350 and the seasons, and all that jazz, if you, you know, the way 1678 01:45:49,350 --> 01:45:52,740 Apple's doing it is, it's just like, you know, magic, you're 1679 01:45:52,740 --> 01:45:56,160 suppose you just, you know, dump a bunch of stuff into your 1680 01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:59,340 podcast, and they'll figure it out. But, you know, from a from 1681 01:45:59,340 --> 01:46:02,880 a namespace, and from an RSS perspective, we can easily 1682 01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:05,940 replicate that same behavior, but actually give the creator 1683 01:46:06,390 --> 01:46:10,170 the the appropriate control over that deal. Do you agree with 1684 01:46:10,170 --> 01:46:10,320 that? 1685 01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:13,950 Yeah. I mean, that's quite cool. I mean, if you think about it 1686 01:46:13,950 --> 01:46:16,680 from like, a TV show point of view. So I'm watching the TV 1687 01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:20,580 show. You know, it's like, the first two minutes is a recap of 1688 01:46:20,700 --> 01:46:24,270 the previous episode, or by you know, you're watching season 1689 01:46:24,270 --> 01:46:27,330 two, and the first episode of season two includes like, a 1690 01:46:27,330 --> 01:46:30,060 minute or two of a recap of season one, you know, the 1691 01:46:30,060 --> 01:46:33,450 ability to have trailers or even Recaps of previous seasons for 1692 01:46:33,660 --> 01:46:35,820 certain types of podcast, you know, audio drama, style 1693 01:46:35,820 --> 01:46:38,280 podcasts? No, it's really interesting. 1694 01:46:39,570 --> 01:46:41,820 That is, that is interesting. Yes, yeah, I think we can do 1695 01:46:41,820 --> 01:46:45,480 that, too. Because the smart play thing, it makes a lot of 1696 01:46:45,480 --> 01:46:48,600 sense. I think it's a cool idea. And I think we can easily put 1697 01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:53,370 that into the namespace somewhere, to get to give an app 1698 01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:55,740 guidance as to where to start. I mean, that just seems like low 1699 01:46:55,740 --> 01:46:56,730 hanging fruit to me. 1700 01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:02,760 Yeah, I think it would be good to sort of from an adoption 1701 01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:06,480 perspective, or what we tend to see with with many users, 1702 01:47:06,480 --> 01:47:09,480 because, you know, rewind back to my friend who does the 1703 01:47:09,480 --> 01:47:13,140 knitting podcast in one or two hours per week, she saw a little 1704 01:47:13,140 --> 01:47:17,340 bit push for time, and I think they're adopting an approach 1705 01:47:17,850 --> 01:47:19,950 across all hosting providers, you know, where we can 1706 01:47:19,950 --> 01:47:23,940 collaborate and say, actually, look here. Here are the range of 1707 01:47:23,940 --> 01:47:26,520 new tags, you know, phase one, phase two, phase three. And 1708 01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:29,520 broadly speaking, as hosting companies, you know, we can sort 1709 01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:32,700 of market the use of those tags in two different tranches, you 1710 01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:36,390 know, tranche one, is this tag helps the listener experience, 1711 01:47:36,390 --> 01:47:39,960 and this tranche helps the creator experience. So you know, 1712 01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:43,770 funding versus trailer, you know, one could be popped, or 1713 01:47:43,770 --> 01:47:47,130 marketed as creator experience, one has listener experience. And 1714 01:47:47,700 --> 01:47:51,600 the reason I say that, is that, because these people are so time 1715 01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:54,210 bound, and so concerned about awareness that this hobby 1716 01:47:54,630 --> 01:47:57,060 suddenly become a little bit busier, I've got to spend a 1717 01:47:57,060 --> 01:48:00,060 little bit more time doing it, what should I do? And when 1718 01:48:00,060 --> 01:48:03,930 should I do it? And what's vital and what's not? I think, sort of 1719 01:48:03,930 --> 01:48:08,880 a standardized experience group and would be fascinating, 1720 01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:11,880 because then we can collectively market Well, okay, look, if you 1721 01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:15,690 are short on time, we know that good listener experience results 1722 01:48:15,690 --> 01:48:20,070 in in more growth and success and less attrition. Do these 1723 01:48:20,070 --> 01:48:23,280 three things with your, your your trailer target, and the 1724 01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:26,370 other tags, the location tag, and so on. That's listener 1725 01:48:26,370 --> 01:48:29,040 experience, if you've only got a little bit of time, do these 1726 01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:32,160 ones. And as a hosting company, we've we've taken some of the 1727 01:48:32,160 --> 01:48:34,380 burden from you, you know, we've done a little bit of work as 1728 01:48:34,380 --> 01:48:39,270 much as we can. I think adoption for the busy podcaster is a 1729 01:48:39,270 --> 01:48:41,610 really fascinating challenge for us to solve. 1730 01:48:42,089 --> 01:48:44,609 And that's kind of that's actually that's the flip side of 1731 01:48:44,609 --> 01:48:49,469 what Dave was talking about, where big tech, traditionally is 1732 01:48:49,469 --> 01:48:51,629 like, throw some developers at it, we'll come up with a 1733 01:48:51,629 --> 01:48:54,269 solution, we'll code our ways out of it. And this is the 1734 01:48:54,269 --> 01:48:57,449 inverse, where you're looking at the problems your actual 1735 01:48:57,449 --> 01:49:00,539 customers have. And they say, Okay, let's see if we can solve 1736 01:49:00,569 --> 01:49:04,319 this specific thing right here. Can we make that easier? Or does 1737 01:49:04,319 --> 01:49:06,209 that remain in customer support? 1738 01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:10,500 Yeah, that is a great point, actually. And I think if we 1739 01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:13,500 extrapolate that a bit further, you sort of got the, because we 1740 01:49:13,500 --> 01:49:16,890 talked about those headlines, then with a nought point 2% of 1741 01:49:16,890 --> 01:49:21,840 the podcasters that generate most of the news. The the 1742 01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,320 worries that come because the podcast industry is changing so 1743 01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:28,920 much, how does a podcaster separate from podcasting 2.0 and 1744 01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:31,860 the new tags a new namespace? How do the separate that from 1745 01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:36,660 luminary Deus Ex, you know, bombarded with this techno sort 1746 01:49:36,660 --> 01:49:40,770 of pre empting the concerns and I think that's one of the 1747 01:49:40,770 --> 01:49:45,540 hosting platforms to say like our job is to distill and remove 1748 01:49:45,540 --> 01:49:49,440 worry, like that's the only reason we exist. You know, 1749 01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:52,830 that is that is, you know, this thank you that very, that's 1750 01:49:52,830 --> 01:49:58,530 helping me with a lot of my thinking, our primary way into 1751 01:49:58,860 --> 01:50:02,820 getting Someone up and running is I mean, obviously, you need a 1752 01:50:02,820 --> 01:50:05,640 host, but the whole education process takes place there as 1753 01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:06,060 well. 1754 01:50:07,980 --> 01:50:12,870 He does. And I think what a lot of a lot of hosting companies 1755 01:50:12,870 --> 01:50:16,110 can do, and not I don't want to say a hosting company, cuz 1756 01:50:16,110 --> 01:50:18,150 that's unfair. But I think Dave was right, you think you're 1757 01:50:18,150 --> 01:50:20,910 right about the big tech thing, what a lot of tech companies, 1758 01:50:20,910 --> 01:50:25,770 not just big tech can do is they can, they can assume that it's 1759 01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:30,480 on the podcaster, or the user to seek out the education. And for 1760 01:50:30,480 --> 01:50:34,410 us, we have to preempt the worrying thing, that's the key 1761 01:50:34,410 --> 01:50:39,330 phrase, you know, preempt that worry. And sort of take a little 1762 01:50:39,330 --> 01:50:40,080 bit of stress, 1763 01:50:40,140 --> 01:50:43,110 I think that's the big thing. So it would be great, then, if all 1764 01:50:43,110 --> 01:50:47,460 hosting companies would start an educational Pro, I'm not saying 1765 01:50:47,460 --> 01:50:50,910 they haven't. But start an educational program that says, 1766 01:50:50,910 --> 01:50:56,520 okay, you know, here's, I mean, everyone has the works with 1767 01:50:56,520 --> 01:50:59,940 Apple, iTunes works with Spotify, you'll be able to hear 1768 01:50:59,940 --> 01:51:03,420 it here, it works on here, and this and this, it would be great 1769 01:51:03,420 --> 01:51:07,350 to somehow start educating people about podcasting 2.0 1770 01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:11,970 those features, why you may want to because, you know, podcasters 1771 01:51:11,970 --> 01:51:16,650 are the best marketers, you know, when a podcaster is, is 1772 01:51:16,650 --> 01:51:21,090 using transcripts, or chapters, or chapter images, and they say, 1773 01:51:21,090 --> 01:51:23,820 Hey, you know, this is some extra stuff I'm doing over here, 1774 01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:29,610 take a look. And you can see it in these apps. People do that. 1775 01:51:30,090 --> 01:51:33,270 And people try it out. And then if you're lucky, if the if the 1776 01:51:33,270 --> 01:51:36,870 app is where someone wants it to be, they'll keep using it, 1777 01:51:36,900 --> 01:51:39,540 though they may start using it more than we use it only for 1778 01:51:39,540 --> 01:51:42,960 that show, they may reach out to the developer and say, Hey, you 1779 01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:45,720 know, something's not right here. Can you fix this? Or I'd 1780 01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:49,350 love this behavior. That's the education process. I'd love to 1781 01:51:49,350 --> 01:51:53,130 see hosting companies engaging more I know everyone's busy. I 1782 01:51:53,130 --> 01:51:55,710 know it's it's tough to it's an it's not an easy thing to 1783 01:51:55,710 --> 01:51:58,800 explain why why are there different apps? Why do they have 1784 01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:00,990 different behaviors, your thoughts on that? 1785 01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:07,620 I think is part of the job. I always use the example of 1786 01:52:09,210 --> 01:52:11,940 whatever, whatever example I'm using of like a podcast host or 1787 01:52:11,940 --> 01:52:15,690 a podcaster. Someone that is basically saying how do I make 1788 01:52:15,690 --> 01:52:19,050 my business or my stuff better? I always make the analogy of 1789 01:52:19,050 --> 01:52:22,470 like, imagine a plumber turning up at your house. And he is only 1790 01:52:22,770 --> 01:52:26,670 the only thing that he is good at his plumbing. And you think 1791 01:52:26,670 --> 01:52:29,130 well, that's kind of the baseline like you, that's why 1792 01:52:29,130 --> 01:52:32,730 you're here. That's the sole reason that you are here doing 1793 01:52:32,730 --> 01:52:36,630 this thing right now. But he's everything else. That makes me 1794 01:52:36,630 --> 01:52:39,180 number one, remember, your number two, recommend you a 1795 01:52:39,180 --> 01:52:43,350 number three, decide that you do not soak base, everything else 1796 01:52:43,860 --> 01:52:49,500 is like the baseline. So I think this education is is the host is 1797 01:52:49,500 --> 01:52:51,900 the baseline, the RSS feed to the baseline, no one should be 1798 01:52:51,900 --> 01:52:56,550 applauded for providing good analytics. That's the basic. So 1799 01:52:57,000 --> 01:53:00,840 the education is where we can stand out. And I think one of 1800 01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:04,890 the challenges in podcast hosting as well, it's everyone 1801 01:53:04,890 --> 01:53:09,870 gets a little, like little antagonistic at times where it's 1802 01:53:09,870 --> 01:53:12,240 sort of, well, we're better than them, or they're better than 1803 01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:14,520 them. And it's I don't see any point in that, like, we've 1804 01:53:15,450 --> 01:53:16,590 talked about approaches. 1805 01:53:16,620 --> 01:53:20,670 So can I can I expect to see so I'm not and if I can help let me 1806 01:53:20,670 --> 01:53:24,990 know. I mean, I'd love to see your page with Apple, Spotify, 1807 01:53:24,990 --> 01:53:30,330 Google, Amazon, Stitcher, Deezer player and sovereign. Alden. I'd 1808 01:53:30,330 --> 01:53:35,700 love to see, you know, more podcast 2.0 or any podcast 2.0 1809 01:53:35,700 --> 01:53:40,020 apps on that page. And, and, you know, if there's anything I can 1810 01:53:40,020 --> 01:53:43,380 do to help educate your customers and tell them what, 1811 01:53:43,830 --> 01:53:46,410 you know, what the benefit is of transcripts and where they do 1812 01:53:46,410 --> 01:53:49,620 and don't work, I mean, let me know. Happy to help in any of 1813 01:53:49,620 --> 01:53:50,040 that. 1814 01:53:51,090 --> 01:53:53,160 Thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah, we've got some some big 1815 01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:54,930 design work going on at the minute. So guys, if you're 1816 01:53:54,930 --> 01:53:57,180 listening, that's a little bit of work for you. But we've got 1817 01:53:57,180 --> 01:53:57,240 to 1818 01:53:58,350 --> 01:54:01,560 push it off on gas. Okay, fine. Good old gas. 1819 01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:03,360 He doesn't even exist. 1820 01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:08,460 That's the humor. I like there it is, ladies and gentlemen, 1821 01:54:08,580 --> 01:54:10,590 five years in the UK and now I get it. 1822 01:54:11,940 --> 01:54:14,070 No, thank you for that. In all seriousness, yeah, well, we will 1823 01:54:14,070 --> 01:54:15,390 absolutely take you up on that. 1824 01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:20,760 That I think this is critical because what we're seeing from 1825 01:54:20,790 --> 01:54:25,170 you know, now Apple clearly Spotify these and Google they'll 1826 01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:27,420 they'll jump in the mix eventually they all these guys 1827 01:54:27,420 --> 01:54:29,670 copycat each other. That's that's half of what they know 1828 01:54:29,670 --> 01:54:33,840 how to do that, you know, like, it's, it's so critical. We've 1829 01:54:33,990 --> 01:54:37,830 been saying this for a while is that RSS and the open ecosystem, 1830 01:54:37,830 --> 01:54:42,630 the the open podcast ecosystem built on RSS, can can do all of 1831 01:54:42,630 --> 01:54:48,120 these things. It can do there's there's none of these nothing is 1832 01:54:48,330 --> 01:54:53,850 is off limits or not possible within the open RSS podcasting 1833 01:54:53,850 --> 01:54:58,170 ecosystem. That is possible within a silo, and and what and 1834 01:54:58,170 --> 01:55:00,510 when I say nothing, I mean nothing that any Buddy would 1835 01:55:00,600 --> 01:55:05,370 would consider to be valuable to the listener, because that's 1836 01:55:05,370 --> 01:55:09,690 really where ultimately what this is about. Because even 1837 01:55:09,690 --> 01:55:12,840 though even what's valuable to the creator comes back through 1838 01:55:12,900 --> 01:55:15,810 what is valuable to the listener, that mean ultimately, 1839 01:55:15,810 --> 01:55:20,640 that's all that matters. And so it in there's nothing in the, in 1840 01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:25,110 the open ecosystem that can't be done and match or exceed 1841 01:55:25,140 --> 01:55:28,470 anything that can be done within apple or Spotify or these these 1842 01:55:28,590 --> 01:55:32,850 sort of vertical stacks. We can do all this stuff we can do. We 1843 01:55:32,850 --> 01:55:35,940 know we can do the payments, we've already proven that the 1844 01:55:36,510 --> 01:55:40,530 payments work, we can do polls that works right now, in theory, 1845 01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:44,580 you can iframe a chapter, a chapter marker, there's all 1846 01:55:44,580 --> 01:55:48,120 these things that they talk about as if RSS is holding back. 1847 01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:52,110 Progress is complete, complete baloney. The thing is, we just 1848 01:55:52,110 --> 01:55:56,010 have to do it, you know, that you can you can you can envision 1849 01:55:56,010 --> 01:55:59,220 ways to do it. But that doesn't help anybody. I mean, you 1850 01:55:59,220 --> 01:56:01,260 actually have to actually do it. 1851 01:56:02,010 --> 01:56:04,260 And what Yeah, what are you going to get now? I mean, and, 1852 01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:07,650 by the way, I see I also have a creator briefing from Apple, 1853 01:56:07,650 --> 01:56:10,740 that's nice. Where tomorrow, where you're going to see now is 1854 01:56:10,830 --> 01:56:14,820 a lot of your customers will be very curious, you know, what is 1855 01:56:14,820 --> 01:56:18,480 this? What do I do? How to do? Or should I do it? What is DRM? 1856 01:56:18,540 --> 01:56:20,580 I mean, these are the things that really putting a huge 1857 01:56:20,580 --> 01:56:25,380 burden burden on you guys to educate people and, and just the 1858 01:56:25,380 --> 01:56:28,920 more I think about it, that so I'm so happy that we immediately 1859 01:56:28,920 --> 01:56:31,980 involved hosting companies and, and the involvement that they've 1860 01:56:31,980 --> 01:56:35,370 shown an interest they've shown and development cycles that have 1861 01:56:35,370 --> 01:56:38,760 been dedicated to podcasting. 2.0 is very much appreciated. 1862 01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:43,920 Because the only thing that's left is, is a couple of people 1863 01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:46,590 tweeting, you know, hey, we got some cool over here, come take a 1864 01:56:46,590 --> 01:56:49,440 look at Hey, that guy's doing something cool. I mean, that's 1865 01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:55,230 not an educational process by any means. And and it is exactly 1866 01:56:55,230 --> 01:56:59,580 companies like captivate who are going to who can in fact steer 1867 01:56:59,580 --> 01:57:04,830 the future of podcasting period, you can steer the future of 1868 01:57:05,100 --> 01:57:08,250 podcasting with your education towards your existing and new 1869 01:57:08,250 --> 01:57:09,000 customers. 1870 01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:17,730 Yeah. Right. Don't just go back to you know, just talk about the 1871 01:57:17,730 --> 01:57:21,300 other point that, you know, RSS isn't isn't a hindrance, you 1872 01:57:21,300 --> 01:57:25,380 know, I think, yeah, maybe in times where data service was a 1873 01:57:25,380 --> 01:57:27,570 lot less than, you know, you struggle to download, like a one 1874 01:57:27,570 --> 01:57:31,530 megabyte file. But, you know, now, you know, an RSS feed that 1875 01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:35,550 there's much bigger is not a problem. And, you know, there 1876 01:57:35,550 --> 01:57:39,090 isn't as much as an issue as it used to be. So it doesn't matter 1877 01:57:39,090 --> 01:57:41,490 how long the RSS feed is, you know, that's pretty much why the 1878 01:57:41,490 --> 01:57:44,880 RSS feeds were limited to, you know, 300 episodes because, you 1879 01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:46,650 know, he needed to be smaller, 1880 01:57:46,679 --> 01:57:49,169 right, which which is, which is actually more in trouble. That's 1881 01:57:49,169 --> 01:57:53,489 actually one of I think one of Apple's USPS, there's now you 1882 01:57:53,489 --> 01:57:57,119 can unlock the entire archive, upload it all to us. We'll DRM 1883 01:57:57,119 --> 01:57:59,639 it. No problem. Yeah, I 1884 01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:00,240 bet they will. 1885 01:58:03,390 --> 01:58:06,150 DRM stuff, you've got to upload the you've got to upload either 1886 01:58:06,150 --> 01:58:10,770 a WAV file or a five by 11. Yeah. I'm not sure if they will 1887 01:58:10,770 --> 01:58:13,140 do anything or mp3. And again, that is education. 1888 01:58:13,170 --> 01:58:16,080 I don't even think they'll put it in. They're not even gonna 1889 01:58:16,080 --> 01:58:21,240 output an mp3. No way. It's gonna be mp4 I'm sure or AC or 1890 01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:24,510 whatever. Format works. And Wow, man, they're gonna do the 1891 01:58:24,510 --> 01:58:27,270 compression for you and everything. Holy crap. No way in 1892 01:58:27,270 --> 01:58:30,570 hell. That's just crazy. 1893 01:58:30,630 --> 01:58:31,770 That's just for an audio guy. 1894 01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:37,260 No, not for an audio guy at all. But yeah, I mean, so that's, 1895 01:58:37,290 --> 01:58:39,720 that's kind of an eye opener for me. I hadn't really considered 1896 01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:43,020 just how important until this conversation. I was new as 1897 01:58:43,020 --> 01:58:47,070 important. But damn, you guys are really, really do it. You 1898 01:58:47,070 --> 01:58:51,180 are the School of podcasting as well for for your customers. And 1899 01:58:51,180 --> 01:58:53,880 it's an ongoing education. It does not stop. 1900 01:58:55,620 --> 01:58:58,170 You know, it's tough as well, actually. I'm thinking I'm not 1901 01:58:58,170 --> 01:59:00,330 saying this from our side, but I'm saying it from a podcaster 1902 01:59:00,330 --> 01:59:05,070 side, because they only feel one of two ways. When an 1903 01:59:05,070 --> 01:59:07,920 announcement comes out there. They feel either terrified 1904 01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:12,720 because they're worried about the more work or the the lack of 1905 01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:15,060 technical understanding, oh dear, I've just learned how to 1906 01:59:15,060 --> 01:59:17,850 do this thing in podcasting, with my mic and my editing and 1907 01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:22,530 publishing. Now, here's another technical hurdle, or they feel 1908 01:59:22,530 --> 01:59:26,430 excited. They want to dive in, but they don't know what the 1909 01:59:26,490 --> 01:59:27,840 impact the outcome 1910 01:59:28,590 --> 01:59:30,150 will be. Right? Right. 1911 01:59:30,870 --> 01:59:34,680 Because so many people see see podcasting as a Boolean. You 1912 01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:37,980 know, only there are only two outcomes in podcasting for many 1913 01:59:37,980 --> 01:59:40,800 podcasters the right thing and the wrong thing. And we know 1914 01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:43,530 that's not the case. We know it's these people and community. 1915 01:59:44,070 --> 01:59:50,670 But a lot of people are worried about if I, if I go ahead now 1916 01:59:50,880 --> 01:59:55,920 and publish a premium episode or put a premium on my feed or even 1917 01:59:55,920 --> 02:00:00,960 consider this. Will that undo the goodwill Have my audience 1918 02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:04,350 who have enjoyed me for free for five years? Big Question. That's 1919 02:00:04,590 --> 02:00:05,640 huge. Yeah. 1920 02:00:07,620 --> 02:00:11,220 Yeah. And it might, it could. It could be the answer is it 1921 02:00:11,220 --> 02:00:14,070 depends on your audience, you know, because you know, you guys 1922 02:00:14,070 --> 02:00:15,180 don't, you may not work. 1923 02:00:15,210 --> 02:00:18,180 Now my bottom line is I'm saying now that I'm seeing this, you 1924 02:00:18,180 --> 02:00:20,340 guys don't charge enough for what you do. I mean, I 1925 02:00:20,340 --> 02:00:25,140 understand the market gives you what it bears. But none of the 1926 02:00:25,140 --> 02:00:28,080 hosts really, there's so much extra that's being done. It's 1927 02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:31,710 quite, it's quite mind boggling. How about, how about bandwidth? 1928 02:00:31,710 --> 02:00:36,300 That seems to be the like the variable here, that is kind of 1929 02:00:36,300 --> 02:00:39,540 weird for your business case where you get someone who's 1930 02:00:39,540 --> 02:00:43,560 really successful, and that has to be subsidized by lots of 1931 02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:46,710 other smaller shows that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth. How 1932 02:00:46,710 --> 02:00:47,490 is that for you? 1933 02:00:49,170 --> 02:00:52,650 You know, it's a, it's a very classic business model in 1934 02:00:52,650 --> 02:00:58,800 podcasting, the idea that that subsidy exists. From our 1935 02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:01,830 perspective, we put our price in front like we charge but we 1936 02:01:01,830 --> 02:01:04,680 don't charge people for storage, we give people unlimited shows 1937 02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:08,670 on one account, we know we don't set them up for RSS feed. And we 1938 02:01:08,670 --> 02:01:11,880 say to them, Look, our costs are the bandwidth, here's what you 1939 02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:14,310 will get, you know, you'll get 12,000 downloads at this cost 1940 02:01:14,310 --> 02:01:17,640 and 60,000 and then 120. And then custom pricing, 1941 02:01:17,730 --> 02:01:20,640 you go all the way down that line, you show them the 1942 02:01:20,700 --> 02:01:24,210 downloads based upon their file size to or just in general, 1943 02:01:25,110 --> 02:01:28,050 Will not you know, actually, we built a calculator for that. So 1944 02:01:28,050 --> 02:01:31,890 we have that bill, we didn't put it on there on the website. And 1945 02:01:31,890 --> 02:01:35,370 I'll tell you why it is purely back to my original point of 1946 02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:39,390 technical confusion is that when we when we started signing 1947 02:01:39,390 --> 02:01:42,270 people up for captivate the first user to captivate, it was 1948 02:01:42,270 --> 02:01:44,340 a friend of mine called Ian Anderson gray. And he started a 1949 02:01:44,340 --> 02:01:47,850 new podcast, and I just onboard him. And I asked him these 1950 02:01:47,850 --> 02:01:51,030 questions used him as research and he was very gracious. So 1951 02:01:51,030 --> 02:01:55,320 what are your file sizes? I have absolutely no idea nor I've got 1952 02:01:55,320 --> 02:01:56,760 the inclination to find out. 1953 02:01:58,170 --> 02:01:58,890 We called it 1954 02:01:59,610 --> 02:02:00,480 and we didn't carry on. 1955 02:02:01,350 --> 02:02:04,350 But what's interesting is in this new world of Bitcoin and 1956 02:02:04,350 --> 02:02:08,520 lightning, and how the lightning network is put together, and and 1957 02:02:08,520 --> 02:02:12,810 quite honestly, the the younger people who are building this 1958 02:02:12,810 --> 02:02:18,540 out, I'm 56. So you know, I'm looking at 3028 2930 year olds. 1959 02:02:19,980 --> 02:02:23,400 And the whole vibe is, Hey, man, no one should be working for 1960 02:02:23,400 --> 02:02:26,430 free anymore. This is if if we do that we're just shooting 1961 02:02:26,430 --> 02:02:31,830 ourselves in the foot. And because of the kind of Oh, it 1962 02:02:31,830 --> 02:02:34,590 all has to be free, maybe also a little bit the fear of Silicon 1963 02:02:34,590 --> 02:02:37,440 Valley, are they going to come in? Are they gonna screw us over 1964 02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:39,810 with pricing? This is all historical stuff, which goes 1965 02:02:39,810 --> 02:02:43,830 back over 10 years of how podcasting and podcast hosting 1966 02:02:43,830 --> 02:02:46,590 companies evolve, and that they've kind of priced 1967 02:02:46,590 --> 02:02:49,590 themselves with such thin margins when something 1968 02:02:49,590 --> 02:02:54,270 successful comes along. It just seems like we need some form of 1969 02:02:54,270 --> 02:03:00,930 reset for people to understand personally. Although, throughout 1970 02:03:00,930 --> 02:03:06,360 the years, we found our own solutions. When I got a bill 1971 02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:12,450 like, oh, now it's $600 this month. I was also happy, like, 1972 02:03:12,450 --> 02:03:16,110 holy crap, I'm smoking over here. This is great. The first 1973 02:03:16,110 --> 02:03:18,750 thing that came into my head was not Oh, how am I gonna pay for 1974 02:03:18,750 --> 02:03:20,940 it? I'm going to go broke doing the show. It was it was 1975 02:03:20,940 --> 02:03:23,700 incredibly exciting. Now these are much bigger bills and other 1976 02:03:23,700 --> 02:03:27,660 people would see. But I think somehow we we didn't set that up 1977 02:03:27,660 --> 02:03:29,610 right for you guys. Does that make any sense? 1978 02:03:30,750 --> 02:03:35,070 He does, and in a symptom that we often often ponder is how do 1979 02:03:35,070 --> 02:03:38,940 you? How do you translate that, and we're sort of very 1980 02:03:38,940 --> 02:03:42,690 forthcoming with that, you know, we don't offer a free version, 1981 02:03:42,690 --> 02:03:45,330 we don't have a freemium model, we only offer a seven day free 1982 02:03:45,330 --> 02:03:50,160 trial, not a 14 or a 28. And the reason for that is that, you 1983 02:03:50,160 --> 02:03:52,980 know, I could get free golf lessons, but they're either 1984 02:03:52,980 --> 02:03:55,170 going to sell me a membership, or I'm not going to be very good 1985 02:03:55,170 --> 02:03:59,220 after them, you know, there is no way to get around the fact 1986 02:03:59,220 --> 02:04:04,020 that free is either simply not as good. And if it is as good, 1987 02:04:04,590 --> 02:04:07,920 it needs to make money somewhere somehow in the future. And 1988 02:04:07,920 --> 02:04:11,040 we've, we I think this might be the northern English northern 1989 02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:13,410 British in as we've just been very straight and honest, and 1990 02:04:13,410 --> 02:04:17,340 just said, Look, we are a business. And we'll do a really, 1991 02:04:17,340 --> 02:04:20,370 really good job for you. These are, what the costs are for us. 1992 02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:23,220 We'll keep it as low as we can for you. And if you're serious 1993 02:04:23,220 --> 02:04:25,410 about your podcast, and if you're serious about growing it, 1994 02:04:26,160 --> 02:04:28,350 not only we're gonna give you the RSS stuff and the stuff that 1995 02:04:28,350 --> 02:04:30,810 you expect from a five bucks a month cost, but we'll give you 1996 02:04:30,810 --> 02:04:33,030 all that other stuff that we just talked about, what 1997 02:04:33,390 --> 02:04:36,000 what do you What's your feeling about coming up? Because it's, 1998 02:04:36,120 --> 02:04:39,960 it just seems to me that if you could eliminate the hosting cost 1999 02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:45,780 or minimize that to something that is manageable, and you can 2000 02:04:46,320 --> 02:04:51,240 you can project regardless of what happens with your customer 2001 02:04:51,240 --> 02:04:55,380 base. I think that would put you in such a good place. I don't 2002 02:04:55,380 --> 02:04:58,530 know. I mean, I'm just just from what I see from the outside from 2003 02:04:58,530 --> 02:05:01,740 all hosting companies because they You would have this this 2004 02:05:01,770 --> 02:05:04,770 what has to be one of the biggest costs just eliminated 2005 02:05:04,770 --> 02:05:09,510 overnight. And at podcast, index, our social, we've had an 2006 02:05:09,510 --> 02:05:11,880 ongoing dialogue, and we're moving forward with the 2007 02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:16,770 alternative enclosure possibility for web torrent for 2008 02:05:16,770 --> 02:05:23,340 ipfs, distributed hosting ideas. I mean, is that something that 2009 02:05:23,340 --> 02:05:25,530 you've looked at? Are you willing to consider? Is it 2010 02:05:25,530 --> 02:05:29,700 something that I mean, it's scary, I can understand. But 2011 02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:33,210 any, any other ideas on in that realm as to how you can just 2012 02:05:33,210 --> 02:05:36,030 reduce the actual bandwidth cost? 2013 02:05:37,710 --> 02:05:39,750 just jumping on that one? 2014 02:05:40,170 --> 02:05:41,880 Yes, you go. Sorry. 2015 02:05:42,480 --> 02:05:45,420 Yeah, algebra? No. I mean, the ultimate enclosures thing for me 2016 02:05:45,420 --> 02:05:49,890 is quite a big one. And I think, looking at it from places, I 2017 02:05:49,890 --> 02:05:52,980 mean, we've, we've already talked about how, you know, deer 2018 02:05:53,010 --> 02:05:55,260 deer is, you know, we can get a lot of data right now on his 2019 02:05:55,260 --> 02:05:58,500 phones and cellular, but then we look at countries like India, 2020 02:05:58,500 --> 02:06:02,760 and, you know, places like South Africa, you know, where data is 2021 02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:05,790 at a premium. And ultimately, closure offers a really, really 2022 02:06:05,790 --> 02:06:10,350 good solution. And to be fair, you know, the only reason that 2023 02:06:10,350 --> 02:06:13,500 hosts use CD ends is because someone else that never media 2024 02:06:13,500 --> 02:06:16,770 house uses CDN is kind of like a stick to hit you with if you 2025 02:06:16,770 --> 02:06:20,970 don't use one. You know, there are perfectly good solutions 2026 02:06:20,970 --> 02:06:25,140 without using CD ends. You know, there's options out there, you 2027 02:06:25,140 --> 02:06:30,300 know, for basic, you know, storage systems. You know, I 2028 02:06:30,300 --> 02:06:33,900 think if you look at Daniel J, Lewis did a really, really 2029 02:06:33,900 --> 02:06:37,350 interesting blog post about this a while ago, when we first 2030 02:06:37,350 --> 02:06:40,530 launched captivate, and it was, you know, about fastest podcast 2031 02:06:40,680 --> 02:06:44,190 downloads. And I think whilst it's great to have a fast 2032 02:06:44,190 --> 02:06:48,300 download, you know, the people that are, you know, in the UK, 2033 02:06:48,330 --> 02:06:52,320 over in the US and Europe, you know, they do it, the streaming 2034 02:06:52,320 --> 02:06:55,500 time is so tiny and insignificant that it doesn't 2035 02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:59,730 matter, that much. CDN is basically just been kind of 2036 02:06:59,730 --> 02:07:02,280 forced into podcasting, because everyone else has got it, and 2037 02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:04,830 you know, it's a battle, they're not gonna see the end, you can 2038 02:07:04,830 --> 02:07:07,320 always have, you know, separate servers that have got, you know, 2039 02:07:07,320 --> 02:07:11,580 the media files with redundancy and backups that cost next and 2040 02:07:11,580 --> 02:07:15,750 often. But, you know, that's kind of where there's a little 2041 02:07:15,750 --> 02:07:18,360 bit of a downfall in podcasters, in as a whole. 2042 02:07:19,590 --> 02:07:21,600 Yeah, let me let me ask you something about that on the 2043 02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:25,050 bandwidth side of things, Karen, is, because one thing that we, 2044 02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:29,010 you know, we're an egg, we're an aggregator a big one. And so one 2045 02:07:29,010 --> 02:07:33,810 of the things that, as I've been trying to trying to fix or solve 2046 02:07:33,810 --> 02:07:38,340 here is the same thing that web sub nor pub sub was trying to 2047 02:07:38,340 --> 02:07:43,530 solve, that sort of failed at that. And that's the polling 2048 02:07:43,770 --> 02:07:48,450 issue, you know, polling for, for feeds. And what, you know, 2049 02:07:48,450 --> 02:07:54,600 what we see on a consistent basis is just, you know, we now 2050 02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:58,500 have like three point, almost 3.2 million feeds in the index, 2051 02:07:59,010 --> 02:08:04,380 there's no way that you can timely in a timely fashion, pull 2052 02:08:04,380 --> 02:08:09,960 every one of those number one, your there's going to be some 2053 02:08:09,960 --> 02:08:14,430 delay. And then number two, we don't really even want to do 2054 02:08:14,430 --> 02:08:18,240 that, because you're wasting so much time pulling feeds that 2055 02:08:18,240 --> 02:08:23,910 never update is a website was supposed to fix that. And, but, 2056 02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:28,410 but it really just falls down in a lot of ways. So what have in 2057 02:08:28,440 --> 02:08:34,260 most, I think web sub web sub is a is a thing that makes sense 2058 02:08:34,260 --> 02:08:40,680 for for RSS itself, in sort of like the blogging, traditional 2059 02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:45,090 RSS, newsfeed world, but I'm beginning to be convinced. And 2060 02:08:45,090 --> 02:08:47,550 basically, I am convinced already, that web sub does 2061 02:08:47,550 --> 02:08:52,110 really, really does not fit the model of podcasting, RSS. And I 2062 02:08:52,110 --> 02:08:56,430 think, what, what I'm working on what I'm working on right now, 2063 02:08:56,430 --> 02:08:58,860 and I was actually doing some work on it last night, just 2064 02:08:58,860 --> 02:09:03,480 drawing up some some ideas is, is sort of a closed web stub. 2065 02:09:03,630 --> 02:09:08,820 And, and this would be something where the the hosting companies 2066 02:09:08,820 --> 02:09:14,640 participate. And paying, basically, just anytime there's 2067 02:09:14,640 --> 02:09:18,810 an update to a feed, even a new feed, we have a new feed you 2068 02:09:18,810 --> 02:09:26,070 paying a set of web web sub compliant servers that are and 2069 02:09:26,220 --> 02:09:29,310 you know, I'm envisioning somewhat some envision multiple 2070 02:09:29,310 --> 02:09:35,250 people hosting this. So us, let's just say blueberry, maybe 2071 02:09:35,250 --> 02:09:39,210 overcast, anybody who runs an aggregator slash podcast 2072 02:09:39,210 --> 02:09:43,650 directory, can participate and run a node on this on this web 2073 02:09:43,650 --> 02:09:47,430 sub network. And then all the hosting companies and including 2074 02:09:47,430 --> 02:09:51,030 word breno, Sol, solo WordPress installs, all those kinds of 2075 02:09:51,030 --> 02:09:54,570 things. All can just, they all know where to ping. They just 2076 02:09:54,570 --> 02:09:58,590 ping a DNS and say, here's the Feed URL, and it's got a new 2077 02:09:58,590 --> 02:10:01,800 item or here's a Feed URL In this URL, and this feed is brand 2078 02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:05,250 new wild day, and then everything and then and then 2079 02:10:05,250 --> 02:10:09,750 that network replicates out to anybody who wants to subscribe 2080 02:10:09,750 --> 02:10:13,200 as a web sub subscriber. Yeah, I think. 2081 02:10:15,179 --> 02:10:16,799 Yeah, sorry. 2082 02:10:17,520 --> 02:10:20,550 No, I was just say, I think a system like that could really 2083 02:10:20,550 --> 02:10:26,310 finally stop all of the polling, and really become sort of a push 2084 02:10:26,310 --> 02:10:31,680 notification system for pot for the pod open podcasting world as 2085 02:10:31,680 --> 02:10:34,710 a whole that everybody can participate in, without all the 2086 02:10:34,710 --> 02:10:39,060 overhead of these constant re subscriptions to website which 2087 02:10:39,060 --> 02:10:40,080 are, which are just 2088 02:10:40,829 --> 02:10:45,029 Hey, Dave, and Karen. I'm sorry, I'm just jumping the queue here 2089 02:10:45,029 --> 02:10:45,629 for a second. 2090 02:10:45,839 --> 02:10:46,379 No, no, no. 2091 02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:52,650 What an immense power we have at our fingertips here. I know that 2092 02:10:52,650 --> 02:10:57,360 we were laughing on a previous show about how the apple podcast 2093 02:10:57,360 --> 02:11:02,700 app is basically a DDoS. system. Because it's polling all the 2094 02:11:02,700 --> 02:11:08,730 time. It's it's doing a lot of polling. I'm not exactly sure 2095 02:11:08,730 --> 02:11:11,610 you will know better the frequency that Spotify and all 2096 02:11:11,610 --> 02:11:15,390 these other outfits are polling. But this is where enormous power 2097 02:11:15,390 --> 02:11:18,840 lies. Because the hosting companies, you only need a few 2098 02:11:18,840 --> 02:11:21,360 of them really, who are really going to say you know what, 2099 02:11:21,930 --> 02:11:26,550 apple, this is not acceptable. You're in essence, you are de 2100 02:11:26,550 --> 02:11:29,430 dossing. us you there's no reason for it. Now, it's not 2101 02:11:29,430 --> 02:11:32,580 your fault. But here's the new standard that the hosting 2102 02:11:32,580 --> 02:11:37,740 companies, yeah, who Apple is now fucking ripping off, and is 2103 02:11:37,740 --> 02:11:40,380 trying to weasel in on your business. We're putting making a 2104 02:11:40,380 --> 02:11:43,890 stand here and saying, if you want to understand when our 2105 02:11:43,890 --> 02:11:48,960 customers and feeds are updated, here's how you can access that. 2106 02:11:49,080 --> 02:11:52,650 We're gonna block you if you're polling every three minutes. And 2107 02:11:52,650 --> 02:11:56,490 you want to see how fast things change with Apple very fast. 2108 02:11:57,210 --> 02:12:00,420 Because then all of a sudden, they get their iPhone users 2109 02:12:00,420 --> 02:12:03,900 complaining, I can't find this podcast hasn't updated. Why is 2110 02:12:03,900 --> 02:12:07,920 your podcast app not working? Now, it's a big step. because 2111 02:12:07,920 --> 02:12:10,140 someone's got to have the Kahunas and work with their 2112 02:12:10,140 --> 02:12:13,680 customers to say, Hey, we want to keep our costs in check. We 2113 02:12:13,680 --> 02:12:16,290 want to lower our costs, whatever it is, we want to do, 2114 02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:20,490 we need to protect everybody in this. And these are just bad 2115 02:12:20,490 --> 02:12:23,790 actors. But you can only say when we have an activity pub or 2116 02:12:23,790 --> 02:12:26,610 a podcast, pub, whatever, whatever the mechanism is, 2117 02:12:27,030 --> 02:12:28,980 there's enormous power there. 2118 02:12:30,450 --> 02:12:34,140 That says, you know that that's exactly what Deezer have just 2119 02:12:34,140 --> 02:12:38,490 implemented. All the weeks ago, we implemented it, I think two 2120 02:12:38,490 --> 02:12:42,570 weeks ago. So so whenever a feed is updated, you basically post a 2121 02:12:42,570 --> 02:12:45,270 request over to their API and basically say, look, we've 2122 02:12:45,270 --> 02:12:48,360 published an episode, I'll look, he looked at an episode, pull my 2123 02:12:48,360 --> 02:12:51,630 feed, you know, to stop this ride for polling, 2124 02:12:51,660 --> 02:12:56,580 right, but you have to pull you have to ping them. Instead, they 2125 02:12:56,580 --> 02:13:00,390 should be pinging you. That's my point. Why, and in fact, they 2126 02:13:00,390 --> 02:13:04,290 shouldn't be pinging you, they should just be a resource. And a 2127 02:13:04,290 --> 02:13:06,510 distributed resource for all I care, that doesn't matter. 2128 02:13:06,929 --> 02:13:11,819 Yeah, see, that's, that's the thing is, is if we, if we solve 2129 02:13:11,819 --> 02:13:16,919 this in a way, where you have one pane that goes into the, to 2130 02:13:16,919 --> 02:13:21,299 the distributed notification system, and then everybody who 2131 02:13:21,299 --> 02:13:24,629 subscribes and gets that paying out, that's what that's what web 2132 02:13:24,629 --> 02:13:28,679 sub is supposed to be. But the problem is, is web sub requires 2133 02:13:28,679 --> 02:13:35,819 frequent re subscriptions. And it requires a, a, one to one 2134 02:13:36,659 --> 02:13:40,379 sort of linkage back from the feed to the web server that it 2135 02:13:40,379 --> 02:13:44,579 is handling subscriptions for that feed. And, and I think what 2136 02:13:44,579 --> 02:13:50,189 really, the solution needs to be not private agreements between 2137 02:13:50,219 --> 02:13:54,869 individual parties, right, but basically one one system where 2138 02:13:54,869 --> 02:13:58,109 everybody just knows, here's the here's the here's the domain, 2139 02:13:58,139 --> 02:14:02,309 here's the host name. And that host name is a round robin that 2140 02:14:02,309 --> 02:14:06,269 addresses multiple hosts within the podcast paying update 2141 02:14:06,269 --> 02:14:09,989 network, whatever it is, and we just say in there's there's a 2142 02:14:09,989 --> 02:14:13,439 predefined URL scheme and and you can always just ping that 2143 02:14:13,439 --> 02:14:18,569 one DNS name with a predefined URL parameters this scheme for 2144 02:14:18,569 --> 02:14:24,179 the URL and everybody gets to participate it's basically push 2145 02:14:24,179 --> 02:14:30,359 only website if I think that a system like that makes it where 2146 02:14:30,359 --> 02:14:33,959 you don't have to have you know, because these are these are 2147 02:14:33,959 --> 02:14:39,659 model is is just going to be okay. Well, now now as a podcast 2148 02:14:39,659 --> 02:14:44,849 host I have to make you know, different agreements with all 2149 02:14:44,849 --> 02:14:48,599 these different direct Yes, that doesn't. That doesn't scalable 2150 02:14:48,599 --> 02:14:48,959 either. 2151 02:14:48,990 --> 02:14:52,350 Kiernan, what's the Akira in fact now I did it myself. Karen, 2152 02:14:52,350 --> 02:14:56,640 what's the sorry about that? What's the percentage do you 2153 02:14:56,640 --> 02:15:04,380 think of bandwidth used on our RSS feed polling versus mp3 file 2154 02:15:04,380 --> 02:15:04,950 transfer. 2155 02:15:07,740 --> 02:15:10,680 mp3 transfers super high, 2156 02:15:10,710 --> 02:15:11,580 you know, sure, super 2157 02:15:11,580 --> 02:15:12,300 high. Sure. 2158 02:15:12,570 --> 02:15:15,180 RSS polling is not as bad, but it's still a lot. You 2159 02:15:15,179 --> 02:15:17,279 know, it's I think it's 10%. 2160 02:15:18,930 --> 02:15:23,160 Now, it's probably less than that tip probably 5%, maybe four 2161 02:15:23,160 --> 02:15:26,190 or 5%? You know, 2162 02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:30,450 I don't know how you feel Karen, but it's when with the polling. 2163 02:15:31,110 --> 02:15:34,380 It's less the bandwidth and more more of the server resources. 2164 02:15:34,380 --> 02:15:34,920 Oh, yeah. 2165 02:15:35,219 --> 02:15:38,189 Yes, resource into I think I mean, you know, if you've got 2166 02:15:38,189 --> 02:15:40,979 anything written up on that one, you know, feel free to invite me 2167 02:15:40,979 --> 02:15:44,189 on GitHub or anything like that, to be working on, you know, here 2168 02:15:44,189 --> 02:15:46,619 at captivate, you know, we'd love to be a part of any, 2169 02:15:46,949 --> 02:15:49,739 anything that's open like that, that just helps us all again, 2170 02:15:49,739 --> 02:15:52,259 you know, if it saves cost on bandwidth, then, you know, we're 2171 02:15:52,259 --> 02:15:55,709 all for that anyway. definitely advise if you've got anything 2172 02:15:55,709 --> 02:15:56,129 written up. 2173 02:15:56,610 --> 02:15:59,370 Yeah, I think we're trying to solve that problem now. And I 2174 02:15:59,940 --> 02:16:03,360 was going down the route of a distributed poll, polling 2175 02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:05,520 agents, and now I've thought, you know, last night, I was 2176 02:16:05,520 --> 02:16:09,420 like, No, it's just not gonna work. We this, this whole thing 2177 02:16:09,420 --> 02:16:12,900 is gonna fail. Unless we solve the not the polling issue for 2178 02:16:12,900 --> 02:16:16,290 everybody all at once, at the same time, period. I mean, 2179 02:16:16,320 --> 02:16:18,330 otherwise, it's a it's a failure, and I'm not even going 2180 02:16:18,330 --> 02:16:22,350 to deal with it. So you know that, yeah, well, hopefully, 2181 02:16:22,350 --> 02:16:24,990 we'll you know, we'll start hammering away on that. Anyway. 2182 02:16:24,990 --> 02:16:26,250 It's just not day one. Just get your thoughts. 2183 02:16:28,830 --> 02:16:33,810 Back to just briefly the namespace. What, what, what are 2184 02:16:33,810 --> 02:16:41,700 you guys implementing currently? Hello. Sorry, I'll 2185 02:16:41,699 --> 02:16:49,199 jump. In last time. I was. I was starting last time. Any job 2186 02:16:49,199 --> 02:16:52,019 said? Yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah, so we implemented the 2187 02:16:52,019 --> 02:16:54,419 transcript tag, which is fantastic. 2188 02:16:54,780 --> 02:16:58,290 But you also provide transcript processing for your customers? 2189 02:16:59,760 --> 02:17:03,840 We don't know. But we we partner over with the team at descript. 2190 02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:07,560 Got an integration with a script, which works nicely. Go 2191 02:17:07,560 --> 02:17:09,810 straight in, we create the files, you know, we get 2192 02:17:09,810 --> 02:17:12,570 everything where it needs to be. And we also include the 2193 02:17:12,570 --> 02:17:14,130 transcription on the website as well. 2194 02:17:14,160 --> 02:17:18,510 Cool. It's all automatic images, to just all flows through and no 2195 02:17:18,510 --> 02:17:19,260 one really has Yeah, 2196 02:17:19,290 --> 02:17:22,650 see, that was true. Nice. They can even write the manual ones 2197 02:17:22,650 --> 02:17:25,800 if you know if someone's not about the tools to do so. They 2198 02:17:25,800 --> 02:17:30,270 can write manual transcripts as well, which is nice to know. So 2199 02:17:30,270 --> 02:17:33,570 we've got that one. podcast trailer one as soon as that's 2200 02:17:33,570 --> 02:17:35,490 obviously open, you know, we're going to look into that one and 2201 02:17:35,670 --> 02:17:38,460 and get that one integrated as soon as you can. There's a few 2202 02:17:38,460 --> 02:17:41,490 as well that because I'm not I'm not sure if you were But James 2203 02:17:41,490 --> 02:17:45,900 could Linds, a part of the Advisory Board of captivate is 2204 02:17:45,900 --> 02:17:51,810 forever pushing everyone, all of the all of the all of the 2205 02:17:53,490 --> 02:17:56,190 I'm really happy to hear that I'm really happy to hear that 2206 02:17:56,340 --> 02:18:01,620 says so. So what we do have our monthly advisor charts, we 2207 02:18:01,620 --> 02:18:03,030 always talk about, you know, what we're going to look to 2208 02:18:03,030 --> 02:18:06,930 implement, you know what to get in? I think Yeah, I think 2209 02:18:06,930 --> 02:18:12,300 that's, that's far. Yeah, and if you mark on that front, I know 2210 02:18:12,300 --> 02:18:14,310 you've got a few ideas on what you'd like to implement. Next. 2211 02:18:15,300 --> 02:18:19,080 We've got a few design elements that are coming through so we've 2212 02:18:19,080 --> 02:18:22,800 just finally got a head of design in who that the fabled 2213 02:18:22,800 --> 02:18:24,450 guys who does exhaust gas 2214 02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:30,300 the man the myth, the legend, and as part of that, we're 2215 02:18:30,300 --> 02:18:32,850 actually going to implement We've had a few of the fields 2216 02:18:32,940 --> 02:18:36,120 like the front end field so things like the donation link 2217 02:18:36,540 --> 02:18:39,990 that we use on our websites and in our player and so on, that we 2218 02:18:39,990 --> 02:18:42,780 want to kind of bolt the tags on to in the in the back end. So 2219 02:18:42,780 --> 02:18:45,810 we've kind of held off a few of those just purely because we 2220 02:18:45,810 --> 02:18:47,880 knew that we had some design work coming up so there'll be a 2221 02:18:47,880 --> 02:18:51,600 few of those times like the location like the funding that 2222 02:18:51,630 --> 02:18:55,020 we'll use our own interface that we've already got, essentially 2223 02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:57,540 then we'll just bolt the tags onto the back end of them so 2224 02:18:57,540 --> 02:18:59,340 that's another something that guys is excited about. 2225 02:19:00,059 --> 02:19:03,239 Is get what is what kind of name is is that short for Gavin and 2226 02:19:03,239 --> 02:19:06,269 it just turned into a z what how do you get a name like as 2227 02:19:07,380 --> 02:19:09,690 a shot for Gary? gases 2228 02:19:09,720 --> 02:19:10,290 gases the 2229 02:19:11,219 --> 02:19:12,869 geysers. Okay, right. 2230 02:19:13,290 --> 02:19:17,310 I was trying to figure it out like Gavin gas, Gary. Yeah, gas 2231 02:19:17,310 --> 02:19:18,510 gas geysers? Yeah. 2232 02:19:18,540 --> 02:19:19,200 Got it. Okay. 2233 02:19:20,700 --> 02:19:22,770 we all we all have a we have a you have a Christian name and 2234 02:19:22,770 --> 02:19:24,030 your pub pub, man. Yeah. 2235 02:19:25,590 --> 02:19:29,910 That's exactly how it works. Wow. Um, so I guess the the main 2236 02:19:29,910 --> 02:19:35,160 question for me is, what can we do to help you guys, is there 2237 02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:38,430 anything that we can be doing different, better? something 2238 02:19:38,430 --> 02:19:41,730 new, that would facilitate your life make it easier, better, 2239 02:19:41,730 --> 02:19:42,360 faster? 2240 02:19:44,070 --> 02:19:46,590 I think just just helping out with education, which, which we 2241 02:19:46,590 --> 02:19:49,530 talked about earlier would be fantastic. It is not that there 2242 02:19:49,530 --> 02:19:52,290 isn't enough going on? I think it's just that we can all always 2243 02:19:52,290 --> 02:19:54,510 just do a bit more. And I think that's for us to drive that as 2244 02:19:54,510 --> 02:19:57,720 hosting companies. But even though I'm not the most 2245 02:19:57,720 --> 02:20:00,630 technical person on the planet, you know, I'm I'm frequently in 2246 02:20:00,630 --> 02:20:03,420 the in the Git community looking at the comments and the 2247 02:20:03,420 --> 02:20:07,830 discussions and stuff, and I think, having been podcasting 2248 02:20:07,830 --> 02:20:11,250 for certainly not as long as very many other people, you 2249 02:20:11,250 --> 02:20:15,990 know, it's instance while 2013 ish. I've still and Kieran is 2250 02:20:15,990 --> 02:20:18,480 still seeing a lot of these things come and go. And I think 2251 02:20:18,480 --> 02:20:23,370 is, is refreshing the podcast in 2.0, the new namespace just 2252 02:20:23,370 --> 02:20:28,020 continues to keep the momentum up. That I think is just keep 2253 02:20:28,020 --> 02:20:30,690 the foot down. Because I don't think anyone else will just keep 2254 02:20:30,690 --> 02:20:32,010 the foot down. That's what we need. 2255 02:20:32,970 --> 02:20:37,260 Yeah, I think I was talking about that a little bit on the 2256 02:20:37,440 --> 02:20:41,130 on the mass. But on the other day that don't, we don't want to 2257 02:20:41,130 --> 02:20:44,100 go. At first, we were thinking, well, maybe we shouldn't go so 2258 02:20:44,100 --> 02:20:47,880 fast. Because we need to give people time to catch up and all 2259 02:20:47,880 --> 02:20:49,890 that kind of stuff. And then, you know, but the more I think 2260 02:20:49,890 --> 02:20:53,250 about it, it's really just, it doesn't matter, the pace of 2261 02:20:53,250 --> 02:20:56,760 adoption. I mean, the pace of adoption, can can lag, you know, 2262 02:20:56,760 --> 02:21:01,620 for from a few months, it doesn't matter. It's really what 2263 02:21:01,620 --> 02:21:05,190 matters more than adoption, is that those things are available 2264 02:21:05,310 --> 02:21:08,610 that they exist, because we I guess we were talking about it 2265 02:21:08,610 --> 02:21:11,040 with is with reference to alternate enclosure as well, 2266 02:21:11,040 --> 02:21:14,040 because there's a couple of hosting companies are like, Hey, 2267 02:21:14,070 --> 02:21:17,460 we're just not really interested in alternative closure. 99% of 2268 02:21:17,460 --> 02:21:21,840 our customers are in North America. And bandwidth is not an 2269 02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:24,900 issue blah, blah, blah. So but then there are other hosting 2270 02:21:24,900 --> 02:21:29,460 companies. Even if there's only one or two, that maybe alternate 2271 02:21:29,460 --> 02:21:32,640 and closure is a huge deal. And they need a low bandwidth 2272 02:21:32,640 --> 02:21:35,700 version. They really that's that's really they're desperate 2273 02:21:35,700 --> 02:21:40,470 for a solution like that. And so adoption is not really the 2274 02:21:40,470 --> 02:21:45,870 point. And I think, thinking that as well. It's more 2275 02:21:45,870 --> 02:21:50,190 important to just have the thing exist. And then and then that 2276 02:21:50,190 --> 02:21:54,480 way, if somebody needs it, it's there. And they can use it in 2277 02:21:54,480 --> 02:21:57,000 and they know they're safe using it. Because it's an open 2278 02:21:57,000 --> 02:22:01,050 standard. I think I'm I think I'm sort of lining up all along 2279 02:22:01,050 --> 02:22:04,320 those lines, you know, here, let the say I'm on board with that. 2280 02:22:04,350 --> 02:22:07,290 How about this analogy. So you're hosting companies like 2281 02:22:07,290 --> 02:22:11,880 your home, and I just happen to be looking for a new home. So 2282 02:22:11,970 --> 02:22:14,850 you know, I want my home to look like this. I wanted to have this 2283 02:22:14,850 --> 02:22:17,550 I want to have a backyard. Now. There's all kinds of reasons why 2284 02:22:17,550 --> 02:22:21,390 I want it. Conversely, your podcast app, and it's something 2285 02:22:21,390 --> 02:22:25,950 I've learned. It's like a car. You know, all podcast apps are 2286 02:22:25,950 --> 02:22:29,370 going to drive you from home to work. Because just like a car, 2287 02:22:29,580 --> 02:22:32,280 some people want a Ferrari some people want a bigger sound 2288 02:22:32,280 --> 02:22:35,400 system. Some people want knobs and dials and blips and blobs. 2289 02:22:35,400 --> 02:22:39,060 And some people just want completely clean. Some people 2290 02:22:39,090 --> 02:22:42,480 want a Tesla and to die and burn. That's the apple model. 2291 02:22:44,010 --> 02:22:47,460 That's apple and Spotify get a Tesla, you know, so but it's 2292 02:22:47,490 --> 02:22:54,360 it's personality. So my wife loves pod friend, my my business 2293 02:22:54,360 --> 02:22:57,300 partner, my friend Dave, he's just turning me on to pod verse, 2294 02:22:57,300 --> 02:23:00,210 it has completely different features that I'm interested in. 2295 02:23:00,450 --> 02:23:02,970 And that goes right back to what you're saying, Dave? It's like 2296 02:23:03,060 --> 02:23:07,140 the adoption comes with partially demand with insight 2297 02:23:07,140 --> 02:23:11,550 with vision from individual groups. And what we're seeing 2298 02:23:11,550 --> 02:23:15,480 here and maybe this will wrap it all up, is I don't really think 2299 02:23:15,480 --> 02:23:21,180 you can have one podcast host or one apple solution or, you know, 2300 02:23:21,180 --> 02:23:25,380 the the valley and yet extremely pathetic effort. Mark 2301 02:23:25,380 --> 02:23:28,470 Zuckerberg, Zuckerberg made the day before Apple With what? 2302 02:23:29,040 --> 02:23:33,540 We're doing podcasting. Do you know so? So it's it's not it's 2303 02:23:33,540 --> 02:23:37,230 just not going to where it's almost like RSS, it's dead will 2304 02:23:37,230 --> 02:23:40,920 kill it. It's dying. It's going away. Never again, whoo. It just 2305 02:23:40,920 --> 02:23:46,770 doesn't happen. Because people have different people aren't all 2306 02:23:46,770 --> 02:23:50,490 the same. You know, they, some people may not want to be with a 2307 02:23:50,520 --> 02:23:54,270 podcast host. This is captivate Ooh, scary, who the hell knows? 2308 02:23:54,690 --> 02:23:57,450 Now, and that, I think is the beauty of what's going on here. 2309 02:23:57,450 --> 02:24:00,150 And everybody has their piece and everybody improves at their 2310 02:24:00,150 --> 02:24:01,800 own pace with their own group. 2311 02:24:03,900 --> 02:24:05,340 Or versity. 2312 02:24:06,360 --> 02:24:10,410 I think that's perfect. So to do that, with their own group is 2313 02:24:10,410 --> 02:24:15,270 the real key to podcasting. I remember once the first ever 2314 02:24:15,270 --> 02:24:19,770 event I went to in podcasting, and I'm coming from this weird 2315 02:24:19,770 --> 02:24:23,670 little town like here and I do is very weird. If you do what we 2316 02:24:23,670 --> 02:24:27,240 do to you always kind of feel a little bit on the outside. And I 2317 02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:30,150 remember turning up at this event. And finally thinking, you 2318 02:24:30,150 --> 02:24:34,560 know what, we fit here. This is good. And that was what was 2319 02:24:34,560 --> 02:24:38,310 attractive about podcasting. I think the nought point 2% of 2320 02:24:38,310 --> 02:24:41,550 podcasters I get the headlines from earlier. They're the ones 2321 02:24:41,550 --> 02:24:44,550 that sort of make it feel like actually it was in this and the 2322 02:24:44,550 --> 02:24:49,020 people are doing this because we love it. It's not for us to fit 2323 02:24:49,020 --> 02:24:52,080 anymore, but it is this is what is this is this is what 2324 02:24:52,200 --> 02:24:55,020 podcasting is and i think that i think that's articulated 2325 02:24:55,020 --> 02:24:56,610 perfectly Adam. Yeah, 2326 02:24:57,330 --> 02:25:00,180 yeah, that's beautiful. So so in Sheffield, you're the weird Yo 2327 02:25:00,180 --> 02:25:01,680 podcast, guys. Is that what I'm here? 2328 02:25:02,520 --> 02:25:05,010 All the story? We're from a little town called Barnsley. 2329 02:25:05,130 --> 02:25:08,550 Right. And when I said I was going into podcasting mainecare 2330 02:25:08,550 --> 02:25:14,100 and back in 2014, the digital support network who is supposed 2331 02:25:14,100 --> 02:25:16,680 to champion creative and digital industries in bands, the left is 2332 02:25:16,680 --> 02:25:19,500 out of the building. How to start a podcast 2333 02:25:21,690 --> 02:25:25,050 now Now, is there a rivalry between Sheffield and Barnsley? 2334 02:25:27,030 --> 02:25:28,170 Not when you've got here nice. 2335 02:25:33,960 --> 02:25:35,640 Very nice, very nice. Well, 2336 02:25:36,030 --> 02:25:39,240 guys, I want to thank you so much, so much for coming on. I 2337 02:25:39,240 --> 02:25:41,400 know that we had to do things out of sequence, I'm glad you 2338 02:25:41,400 --> 02:25:44,700 were able to facilitate us to to be inserted into the board 2339 02:25:44,700 --> 02:25:46,260 meeting. Thank you for everything you're doing for 2340 02:25:46,260 --> 02:25:49,740 podcasting and for podcasting to point out the same thing, but 2341 02:25:50,040 --> 02:25:53,610 specifically how you're helping drive a lot of this innovation. 2342 02:25:53,910 --> 02:25:57,090 And as I said, I make myself fully available to you, your 2343 02:25:57,090 --> 02:26:00,660 customers, whatever, if you want to do some, if I can help in any 2344 02:26:00,660 --> 02:26:04,500 way with with educational stuff, I do end up that goes for all of 2345 02:26:04,500 --> 02:26:09,300 our all of our hosting companies of course. And, and feel free to 2346 02:26:09,420 --> 02:26:12,060 barge into the boardroom anytime that you need something, you 2347 02:26:12,060 --> 02:26:15,150 know, you got a union dispute, whatever, it's, that's what 2348 02:26:15,150 --> 02:26:15,810 we're here for. 2349 02:26:18,030 --> 02:26:20,520 Now, thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure. Right. 2350 02:26:20,520 --> 02:26:21,000 enjoyed it. 2351 02:26:22,530 --> 02:26:25,080 Yeah, likewise, thank you for that. It's, it's nice to be able 2352 02:26:25,080 --> 02:26:27,390 to chat and it's nice to have someone that gets the British 2353 02:26:27,390 --> 02:26:28,500 humor. So thank you for that. 2354 02:26:29,760 --> 02:26:32,490 Thank you guys, cuz you you invented that and it just passed 2355 02:26:32,490 --> 02:26:35,160 on to me by assimilation. So it's, it's fun. 2356 02:26:35,640 --> 02:26:36,210 Thanks, guys. 2357 02:26:37,080 --> 02:26:40,290 Alright, Dave, maybe this is appropriate moment to thank 2358 02:26:40,290 --> 02:26:45,000 people who have supported podcast index.org as this is a 2359 02:26:45,000 --> 02:26:49,470 value for value proposition. I think that's pretty clear by now 2360 02:26:49,470 --> 02:26:54,270 that the only the only thing we care about is value for value 2361 02:26:54,270 --> 02:26:57,180 time talent treasure, you bring it whatever you get out of the 2362 02:26:57,180 --> 02:27:00,540 index out of this podcast out of the movement in general, Your 2363 02:27:00,540 --> 02:27:03,780 support is what is fueling it literally it keeps the servers 2364 02:27:03,780 --> 02:27:07,110 running makes everything go and you can support us by going to 2365 02:27:07,110 --> 02:27:10,830 podcast index.org scroll down there you see a big red Donate 2366 02:27:10,830 --> 02:27:14,490 button that's for your COC bucks through PayPal which still is 2367 02:27:14,880 --> 02:27:18,870 very useful. And I believe there's also a QR code there if 2368 02:27:18,870 --> 02:27:22,620 you want to send us some status websites and who do we have to 2369 02:27:22,620 --> 02:27:24,780 thank today for supporting everything 2370 02:27:25,740 --> 02:27:32,400 good group. I want to I want to say off the bat that I think I 2371 02:27:32,400 --> 02:27:36,840 mentioned earlier, you know Tom at buzzsprout contacted me and 2372 02:27:37,050 --> 02:27:41,520 then at RSS calm asking if we needed any financial help and 2373 02:27:41,520 --> 02:27:43,620 that kind of thing and that was great. That was just so 2374 02:27:43,620 --> 02:27:46,110 appreciate super heartwarming. Really Yes. 2375 02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:48,690 Yeah. It meant a lot and you know we're doing we're doing 2376 02:27:48,690 --> 02:27:51,630 fine man we got you know, we've we save our money we don't you 2377 02:27:51,630 --> 02:27:54,600 know, we're we've done we've done well to be able to handle 2378 02:27:54,600 --> 02:27:58,140 stuff like this but I really appreciate that that sentiment 2379 02:27:58,620 --> 02:28:06,270 the yes a Marco from overcast showed up in a big way and gave 2380 02:28:06,270 --> 02:28:12,750 us $500 Yeah, nice and yeah that appreciate that and he put a 2381 02:28:12,750 --> 02:28:17,580 really put his money where his mouth is. And that mean means a 2382 02:28:17,580 --> 02:28:22,680 lot no note or anything that really appreciate that 2383 02:28:22,710 --> 02:28:26,550 $500 and half a million dollar it half and half a million 2384 02:28:26,550 --> 02:28:31,410 iTunes IDs. It's It's It's an it's a very nice, very nice show 2385 02:28:31,410 --> 02:28:31,920 support. 2386 02:28:33,150 --> 02:28:38,550 Yeah, very appreciated. The let's see here who got Oh, okay. 2387 02:28:39,930 --> 02:28:44,520 I don't know. He said, Okay, here is $50 donation. Nice. 2388 02:28:44,700 --> 02:28:47,970 Here's his note. post this hope this helps with the influx, no 2389 02:28:47,970 --> 02:28:52,200 weekly shout out necessary go podcasting. Do these there's no 2390 02:28:52,200 --> 02:28:54,240 weekly shout out necessary. She'll still get say his name. 2391 02:28:54,240 --> 02:28:55,500 It doesn't say anonymous? 2392 02:28:56,820 --> 02:29:01,980 I guess not. Okay. And if he does, we'll do it on the next. 2393 02:29:03,450 --> 02:29:06,870 If it sounds like someone doesn't need to be mentioned. 2394 02:29:07,740 --> 02:29:08,700 There. I just got to make sure. 2395 02:29:11,190 --> 02:29:11,880 Okay, so 2396 02:29:13,410 --> 02:29:20,040 thank you for that. $50 Oh, Dred Scott. Yeah. dready $4.33. 2397 02:29:20,369 --> 02:29:23,879 Dr. You're sending it the wrong way, man. Hold on to that. Well, 2398 02:29:23,879 --> 02:29:25,889 of course he's sending Kuk bucks. He's holding on to the 2399 02:29:25,889 --> 02:29:29,969 Bitcoin. He's smart, smart, man. He's smart, man. He's hodling 2400 02:29:30,329 --> 02:29:33,899 Dred Scott the hodler dread the hodler new name dread the hodler 2401 02:29:33,929 --> 02:29:37,319 There you go. And that's so nice. If you drive in it's very, 2402 02:29:37,319 --> 02:29:37,979 very kind. 2403 02:29:38,519 --> 02:29:41,369 Show number eight says show number. Show number with a 2404 02:29:41,369 --> 02:29:44,969 little 33 spikelets sprinkled on top. I keep up the great work. 2405 02:29:45,089 --> 02:29:48,029 Can I get a cute you've been Frank defragment a jingle? Yeah, 2406 02:29:48,029 --> 02:29:56,009 of course. That's it this is over. All right. 2407 02:29:57,210 --> 02:29:58,080 I believe so. Yeah, 2408 02:29:58,230 --> 02:30:06,810 yeah. Thank you. Chad, Pharaoh showed up with $33.33 and his 2409 02:30:06,810 --> 02:30:08,760 messages is not a bug. It's a feature. 2410 02:30:10,349 --> 02:30:10,919 All right. 2411 02:30:13,080 --> 02:30:15,630 Thanks, Chad. appreciate very much. 2412 02:30:17,609 --> 02:30:22,079 Seeing out Oh Lord, I do not know how to pronounce this name. 2413 02:30:22,379 --> 02:30:25,979 GRZEG Oh rz 2414 02:30:26,550 --> 02:30:28,620 Hold on a second. Let me let me write that one down. 2415 02:30:29,039 --> 02:30:39,149 Alright. GRC eg, Eg O, O RG o r z, I'm sorry. It is Driggers. 2416 02:30:39,449 --> 02:30:39,869 Like it's 2417 02:30:39,870 --> 02:30:43,050 probably like a Gregor. Somehow we know I have a country of 2418 02:30:43,050 --> 02:30:45,060 origin or no, 2419 02:30:45,180 --> 02:30:50,130 I get. I get an Oh no, no. That's the on his email. It's 2420 02:30:50,130 --> 02:30:52,800 a.pl. So Poland. Ah, 2421 02:30:52,830 --> 02:30:55,590 okay. And what is what is Poland have to say? 2422 02:30:57,180 --> 02:31:00,990 It just says take it easy podcast. Take it easy. 2423 02:31:01,020 --> 02:31:01,800 Take it easy. 2424 02:31:01,950 --> 02:31:04,290 All right. I guess that's the name of this podcast. Beautiful. 2425 02:31:04,320 --> 02:31:05,340 Well, thank you very much. 2426 02:31:05,580 --> 02:31:10,770 Yeah, thank you. I'm gonna say Driggers. Because it sounds 2427 02:31:10,770 --> 02:31:15,840 fancy your clothes. Good. Good for me. All right. Thank you 2428 02:31:15,840 --> 02:31:17,100 very much. That was a 2429 02:31:18,570 --> 02:31:19,440 that's a great dude. 2430 02:31:20,400 --> 02:31:23,220 You're right. Good group, good looking group to actually 2431 02:31:23,580 --> 02:31:25,590 Oh, yeah. Very, very, very, 2432 02:31:26,130 --> 02:31:29,400 very good looking group. All right. Anything else we need to 2433 02:31:29,430 --> 02:31:32,280 discuss anything else we need to do? It's been a long one today. 2434 02:31:32,280 --> 02:31:35,040 But I appreciate everybody sticking with us. Because, man, 2435 02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:38,100 it's just been one of those one of those weeks a lot to do. I'm 2436 02:31:38,100 --> 02:31:41,190 super pumped. Man, I'm so excited. It's like there's so 2437 02:31:41,190 --> 02:31:44,670 much energy flowing around. There's so much good thinking 2438 02:31:44,670 --> 02:31:50,040 reminder that we have the weekly jitsi call, which I think is it 2439 02:31:50,250 --> 02:31:55,320 six UTC tomorrow, Saturday, and that's I believe that's still 2440 02:31:55,320 --> 02:31:59,880 on, there'll be a link posted on podcast index dot social, we had 2441 02:31:59,880 --> 02:32:03,180 a good a good first one last week, and it was just beautiful 2442 02:32:03,180 --> 02:32:08,580 to see all the all the different cam characters, I think 2443 02:32:08,580 --> 02:32:13,020 everyone's just a beautiful character have different ideas, 2444 02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:21,630 wildly different views on openness, or open source. And 2445 02:32:21,870 --> 02:32:25,020 what I love is that, you know, I just look at that whole group 2446 02:32:25,020 --> 02:32:29,280 and, and I say, holy crap, you know, this is a $10 million 2447 02:32:29,520 --> 02:32:32,670 company group of developers who are sitting here, and I'm not 2448 02:32:32,670 --> 02:32:36,030 paying anything for them, look at all but look at all the brain 2449 02:32:36,030 --> 02:32:40,410 power that is in this group. And they're more honest to each 2450 02:32:40,410 --> 02:32:45,840 other, and probably more polite than if they had been in a 2451 02:32:45,840 --> 02:32:46,770 corporate environment. 2452 02:32:47,490 --> 02:32:48,240 100% 2453 02:32:48,300 --> 02:32:51,090 you know, and I love that. It's like, No, I think this Okay, 2454 02:32:51,090 --> 02:32:55,830 cool. I think that's all right. Cool. Perfect. There's no 2455 02:32:55,830 --> 02:32:56,700 arguments. 2456 02:32:57,060 --> 02:33:01,350 Also the the namespace is getting it is getting some 2457 02:33:01,350 --> 02:33:02,250 activity or the less 2458 02:33:02,640 --> 02:33:06,180 is that sir Jean himself who was just writing up a tags every 2459 02:33:06,180 --> 02:33:09,450 week. Yeah. 2460 02:33:11,190 --> 02:33:13,800 We should talk about this. We should talk about some namespace 2461 02:33:13,800 --> 02:33:17,220 stuff. Next week. We didn't even get to it this week. Okay. We 2462 02:33:18,300 --> 02:33:23,130 there's some good proposals out there and see Daniel J. Lewis 2463 02:33:23,130 --> 02:33:27,780 wrote up one. Yes, I saw his Yeah. Tom Rossi just this 2464 02:33:27,780 --> 02:33:31,470 morning, posted thing about being able to replicate the 2465 02:33:31,470 --> 02:33:34,470 whole channels idea. And I think that's a great, that's great. 2466 02:33:35,520 --> 02:33:37,860 Yeah, there's some good activity going on over there. I think can 2467 02:33:37,860 --> 02:33:41,910 we're about we're about to finalize trailers. Nice. Anyway, 2468 02:33:41,910 --> 02:33:44,010 I'm just gonna leave it at that. It's already been like a freakin 2469 02:33:44,010 --> 02:33:44,820 five hour shifts. 2470 02:33:45,150 --> 02:33:46,170 Yes. Okay. 2471 02:33:46,890 --> 02:33:50,220 Well, everybody, this has been good. Next week, we'll have Eric 2472 02:33:50,220 --> 02:33:53,670 the shill. I can't I mean, he has a last name, but I always 2473 02:33:53,670 --> 02:33:58,110 call America shill. And he is the third partner of podcast 2474 02:33:58,110 --> 02:34:02,970 index LLC. And he keeps everything legal for us. And 2475 02:34:02,970 --> 02:34:07,440 we'll have a lot of and particularly in the when it 2476 02:34:07,440 --> 02:34:13,440 comes to how do we handle income with satoshis? What does that 2477 02:34:13,440 --> 02:34:18,120 look like for taxation? What is what's going on with Bitcoin he 2478 02:34:18,120 --> 02:34:22,620 studies he just studied the report that came out from the 2479 02:34:22,620 --> 02:34:26,760 SEC for all the regulations and you know, and just in general, 2480 02:34:26,760 --> 02:34:30,600 he has a he's also developing parts for the the new website. 2481 02:34:30,780 --> 02:34:32,940 So I think we'll have a lot of fun having him on the show 2482 02:34:32,940 --> 02:34:35,880 tomorrow. And he'll finally we'll have a voice here as well, 2483 02:34:35,880 --> 02:34:37,350 which has been overdue. 2484 02:34:37,980 --> 02:34:40,560 Yeah. Yeah. And he knows a lot about DMCA and all that stuff, 2485 02:34:40,560 --> 02:34:43,050 too. He's He's a DeWalt. Army knife. 2486 02:34:44,250 --> 02:34:47,730 Yes, there you go. He's not the shill. He's Eric. The Swiss Army 2487 02:34:47,730 --> 02:34:53,460 Knife of podcast index is perfect. Okay. Yeah, I can't say 2488 02:34:53,460 --> 02:34:58,200 anything other than I am just super happy. And we will be back 2489 02:34:58,200 --> 02:35:00,840 again on Friday to bring you another board. Meaning a podcast 2490 02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:03,780 in 2.0. Until then, take care everybody Bye bye. 2491 02:35:20,460 --> 02:35:24,720 Listening to podcasting, visit podcasts in 2492 02:35:24,720 --> 02:35:27,240 the stack or for more information