1 00:00:00,659 --> 00:00:06,149 podcasting 2.0 for April 16 2021, Episode 33 serving 2 00:00:06,149 --> 00:00:07,169 billions daily. 3 00:00:11,639 --> 00:00:14,039 That's what you're supposed to do in podcasting now just say 4 00:00:14,069 --> 00:00:18,509 whatever it is we do a billion of those 100 million of them. 5 00:00:19,229 --> 00:00:22,169 Welcome everybody. It's another Friday time for the board 6 00:00:22,169 --> 00:00:25,559 meeting here podcast. 2.0 everything that's going on in 7 00:00:25,559 --> 00:00:28,979 podcast index.org and on the mastodon in the socials. I'm 8 00:00:28,979 --> 00:00:32,279 Adam curry, in Austin, Texas. And now ladies and gentlemen, 9 00:00:32,279 --> 00:00:34,259 the man who has the pub for your sub. 10 00:00:35,550 --> 00:00:36,840 Jones 11 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:41,280 he finally came back came back from vacation. 12 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:44,850 Yeah, I have to admit, I missed you. 13 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,930 We had weird parties while you were gone. Did you really know 14 00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:53,880 Yeah. buddies to boss beer they were 2021 sorry, dad, 15 00:00:54,270 --> 00:01:00,060 even though we did have a great episode with with Ryan Gentry 16 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:03,750 from lightning labs. I missed it. I missed the update. You 17 00:01:03,750 --> 00:01:09,030 know, when I was on vacation trying to relax and I'd already 18 00:01:09,270 --> 00:01:12,690 you know distancing myself from my from my from my day job. 19 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:18,120 That's not too hard to just stop watching the news. And just just 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,030 eliminate myself from that. That's no problem for me at all. 21 00:01:21,270 --> 00:01:25,830 But when it comes to this man, podcasting 2.0 check on the 22 00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:30,540 mastodon see what's happening here. This little promotion. 23 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:33,810 Hey, what's satsa streaming got let everybody know. It was 24 00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:39,540 hard to hear. Eric was like, Adam, stop. Just stop posting to 25 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:43,110 the signal chat. Just enjoy yourself. Like you're like, 26 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:45,990 Okay, fine. You know, like you 30 minutes later, okay, boom, 27 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:48,810 you know, you get your bags, like, stop, just relax. 28 00:01:48,839 --> 00:01:52,019 Yeah. And then I also somehow was able to get into a huge 29 00:01:52,019 --> 00:01:54,959 argument with Eric, that was interesting. Oh, yeah. 30 00:01:55,020 --> 00:02:01,590 I love you know, I love bro fights. Like, it wasn't like, he 31 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:03,960 Bubble bubble. You know? Like, what? Why would you ever do 32 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,060 this? And then it's like, okay, we're done. Alright. 33 00:02:06,119 --> 00:02:07,409 Alright, man. Let's move on now, 34 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,040 bro. Hug done for beers. We're done. The whole thing last, like 35 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:11,790 20 minutes. 36 00:02:12,419 --> 00:02:17,039 It was so funny. It took me a long time to figure out what 37 00:02:17,039 --> 00:02:20,369 went wrong. But it was obviously I broke my cardinal rule. You 38 00:02:20,369 --> 00:02:25,019 know, there's no context in text. So it was just dumb. 39 00:02:25,109 --> 00:02:27,749 Anyway, after that, I got real relax. 40 00:02:28,530 --> 00:02:31,320 Yeah. Okay, good. Go ahead and get it out and get the get the 41 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,170 lever spat out of the way. Yes, exactly. Get back here. Get 42 00:02:34,170 --> 00:02:36,960 back to the relationship. Exactly. So this is the board 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,170 meeting. There's a lot to catch up on a lot of things that 44 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:43,650 taking place and I kind of kicked it off with what has been 45 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,530 one of the most active conversations in the past. 46 00:02:47,550 --> 00:02:51,840 Probably the past couple days is an activity pub for podcasting. 47 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:53,070 Yeah. 48 00:02:53,670 --> 00:02:56,940 Yeah, I think that's a huge deal. Like, I'm, I'm having 49 00:02:56,940 --> 00:02:59,790 trouble. We've got so many specifications here. And I've 50 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,490 got them all printed out. I'm having a little bit of trouble 51 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:05,700 kind of keeping up with the pace of content. If people are 52 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:09,030 thrown, you know, thrown in there. But the activity pub 53 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:13,620 thing, we're going to talk about it tomorrow on the developer. 54 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:18,690 Right. That's it. What time is that? Is that? Like, seven? 55 00:03:18,690 --> 00:03:20,940 Seven central time? I think something? 56 00:03:21,509 --> 00:03:25,379 No, it's like, it's gonna be it's right around lunchtime, 57 00:03:25,379 --> 00:03:27,149 maybe one o'clock Central. 58 00:03:27,659 --> 00:03:31,379 central time. Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. 59 00:03:31,620 --> 00:03:36,630 Okay. Yeah, that So Alex Gates is going to give us a like a 60 00:03:36,990 --> 00:03:40,980 activity pub one on one. Cool, which will be good because it's 61 00:03:40,980 --> 00:03:44,790 a con. It's, it's, I've read, I've read the activity pub spec 62 00:03:44,790 --> 00:03:48,240 a couple of times. It is not difficult, but there's a little 63 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,410 bit like it's not difficult to comprehend. But the there's some 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:59,010 there's some gotchas there where the protocol is almost, it's 65 00:03:59,010 --> 00:04:02,820 almost open, it's almost too open to be able to really put 66 00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:05,790 the pieces together inside. So it really helps to have somebody 67 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:08,040 explain it to you. I can't. It's kinda like Bitcoin. 68 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:10,949 Really? Oh, it was really like that. Okay. 69 00:04:10,979 --> 00:04:14,249 Yeah, not not in the difficulty level, but in the, in the idea 70 00:04:14,249 --> 00:04:17,459 that like, you can get to an understanding of how it all 71 00:04:17,459 --> 00:04:20,669 pieces together by getting by going through the documents, but 72 00:04:20,669 --> 00:04:22,829 it's a whole lot easier. Somebody can just sit there and 73 00:04:22,829 --> 00:04:25,739 explain it to you. Okay, you can explain it if somebody who 74 00:04:25,739 --> 00:04:28,469 really knows it and understands it can explain it in five 75 00:04:28,469 --> 00:04:31,619 minutes, versus you spending two and a half hours going through 76 00:04:32,189 --> 00:04:33,059 trying to figure it out. 77 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:34,320 Right, right. Right. 78 00:04:34,530 --> 00:04:37,470 But but man is awesome, though. I mean, like if we can get this 79 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:39,090 work, and that would be that's 80 00:04:39,090 --> 00:04:41,880 something that we run is that distributed? How does that how 81 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:42,690 does that play out? 82 00:04:42,930 --> 00:04:46,320 distributed? Basically, I mean, ice activity pub is what makes 83 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:46,590 mass 84 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:48,240 mastodon work right? federate, 85 00:04:48,270 --> 00:04:50,760 right. Yeah. So the idea would be 86 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:55,110 hosting companies have their own anybody. 87 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:59,280 Yeah, pod friend. The hosting company, blueberry best Brown, 88 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:05,850 right? arsa could have their own the services like, like in a 89 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:10,860 tube tube can have them the pot, you know, podcast players 90 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:16,260 podcasters. Anybody could have an activity pub instance. And as 91 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:20,310 long as it conforms to the spec, then everything just then 92 00:05:20,310 --> 00:05:23,580 everything can federate. So if I go and leave a review of a 93 00:05:23,580 --> 00:05:28,410 podcast, in pod friend, well, then that review could show up 94 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,140 on the actual podcasters. website. 95 00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:39,180 cribe Yeah. Oh, boy, 96 00:05:39,209 --> 00:05:44,939 boy. Exactly. Yeah, totally. Everything. federates everything 97 00:05:44,939 --> 00:05:48,389 federates. And so like, cool. You know, like, just take 98 00:05:48,389 --> 00:05:53,489 somebody like captivate. They can have their shows, each one 99 00:05:53,519 --> 00:05:57,989 showing the comments in the reviews right from and somebody 100 00:05:58,289 --> 00:06:02,639 in pod verse makes it Lisa leaves a comment or a joke shows 101 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:06,209 up everywhere, shows up right there on everybody's stuff. 102 00:06:06,899 --> 00:06:10,499 Now, does that mean you have to have Okay, I guess the only the 103 00:06:10,499 --> 00:06:13,139 really the app has to have an account in that case, right? Not 104 00:06:13,139 --> 00:06:15,599 every, or does every person have to have an account? 105 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,090 Now they like is the there's a few different way and this is 106 00:06:21,090 --> 00:06:23,070 this is what we got to work out is there's three different ways 107 00:06:23,070 --> 00:06:25,860 you can do it. Because in activity pub, everything's sort 108 00:06:25,860 --> 00:06:31,230 of, for lack of a better term and identity. And so you can you 109 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:35,220 know, you can do it multiple ways. I mean, each each podcast 110 00:06:35,220 --> 00:06:39,660 can be an identity, each app can be done to him or not, those are 111 00:06:39,660 --> 00:06:44,880 things we get a workout in. So whatever, however that lands, 112 00:06:45,390 --> 00:06:49,320 there will be some sort of at. So when Right, right, right, 113 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,860 right, right, right. You know, and like, you know, each well, 114 00:06:53,190 --> 00:06:56,220 like one way you could do it would be that each pod friend, 115 00:06:56,250 --> 00:06:58,590 I'm just gonna use them as example. Okay, each pod friend 116 00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:03,120 user account could have an identity on pod friend. 117 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,500 Okay, so you don't necessarily, so I'm just looking at scale, I 118 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:11,190 guess because, you know, running our own mastodon. I know what 119 00:07:11,190 --> 00:07:13,800 the scale is running that. And that's no joke. But that's the 120 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,500 mastodon part. That's not the activity pub part. So you're 121 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:19,200 really just pinging this API with a little bit of data? 122 00:07:20,220 --> 00:07:25,440 Well, you register in each activity, pub server, compliance 123 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,750 server registers federates with with other ones. And so then 124 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,280 this sets up an a stream between the two between these instances, 125 00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:40,230 so that when something happens on one, it gets replicated to 126 00:07:40,230 --> 00:07:42,510 the other ones, for the people who subscribe to that. 127 00:07:44,459 --> 00:07:47,069 Activity Stream, maybe it's maybe my question should just be 128 00:07:47,069 --> 00:07:48,599 refined, does it scale? 129 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:53,220 It does if we do it if we if we design it. Right, right. So 130 00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:56,640 like, because originally I had said, Well, this would be great. 131 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,090 Why doesn't that podcast index run an activity per instance. 132 00:08:00,420 --> 00:08:04,680 And we just could subscribe to every podcast, like every 133 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,890 podcast could be an identity, right? We could just subscribe 134 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,100 to it. And then we would be able to like see all the traffic. 135 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:11,280 Yeah, 136 00:08:11,309 --> 00:08:12,959 that doesn't scale a bit. 137 00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:15,510 Yeah. And that's what Alex was like, Hey, no, I don't think you 138 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:20,040 want 3 million. million identities? No, because you're 139 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,710 pushing tons of bandwidth. So 140 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:24,090 it's a nightmare. 141 00:08:24,630 --> 00:08:27,690 Yeah. Because I think if we do it, right, we can have it where 142 00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:33,150 each individual, you know, login. Really, I think it works 143 00:08:33,150 --> 00:08:40,080 best. If each individual podcast app, their user base has an 144 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:46,050 identity within their instance. And then that thing federates 145 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:48,480 Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. And 146 00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:51,390 he has some accountability to you don't want to miss right. 147 00:08:51,989 --> 00:08:54,389 Well, that's the next thing. Of course, it's circumvents my 148 00:08:54,389 --> 00:08:58,649 dream of having this all being Satoshi chat based. I can see 149 00:08:58,649 --> 00:09:01,679 why why this will go first. This makes a lot of sense. 150 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:06,030 But I don't think it's circumvent, like, circumvent, 151 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:08,670 maybe, but I don't see why it I don't think it precludes 152 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:11,850 it's not incompatible. No, no, it's not inevitable. And I put 153 00:09:11,850 --> 00:09:14,610 myself you know, I lay that down next to me, like, let's get this 154 00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:17,670 thing working. Because this is what Moe keeps beating me over 155 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:20,820 the head about, he says, You've got everything lined up, you've 156 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:25,380 got the boost, which is a Super Chat. And he says, but you need 157 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:29,280 to have people to be able to interact with comments. That's 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,940 it. That's the thing. That's what's missing. And no one's 159 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:34,320 ever done that in podcasting. 160 00:09:35,220 --> 00:09:39,120 Well, he because and this is finally a way that you can do it 161 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,450 without siloing Yeah, without being in love without being 162 00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:46,890 dependent on one central location. Because if everybody 163 00:09:46,890 --> 00:09:51,450 federates and then let's just say pod friend goes down one 164 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,000 day, there's like, this is too much trouble. I'm not I'm not 165 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,000 gonna do this anymore. It doesn't affect anything. One 166 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,760 mastodon instance, offline, everything just still exists, 167 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,870 right? Right. It's beautiful. If we can get it working. Yeah, 168 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,230 yeah raise us tomorrow. Okay, cuz I got it like a million I 169 00:10:07,230 --> 00:10:11,490 want to attend. But I also kind of promised a ghost. No agenda 170 00:10:11,490 --> 00:10:13,860 meet up. I gotta figure out what time everything happens. 171 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:17,790 Yeah Now it's, I'll be I'll be there. Good. 172 00:10:17,850 --> 00:10:21,510 Yeah. So that's by the way anyone who's listening to this 173 00:10:21,510 --> 00:10:24,150 if you're not listening in podcasting 2.0 compatible 174 00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:28,410 browser you're missing out and you're cheapskate. And if you 175 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:30,900 are, you're probably a cheapskate, the crank crank up 176 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:33,300 those value sliders hit us with a boost. 177 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:35,460 Yeah, I'm watching right now 178 00:10:35,490 --> 00:10:39,480 I woke up this morning. And I was and I looked at my my node 179 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:45,060 which pretty much is for no agenda only and half thermofax. 180 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,870 And I had like, like, I got some massive super boosts I think I 181 00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:53,820 got 50 bucks or something totally con believable. I could 182 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,130 have these charts. You know, there's rudimentary charts that 183 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:59,790 are command line. Like, what is this phallic thing doing here? 184 00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:03,390 What happened there? And I tried to find the source of it. And I 185 00:11:03,390 --> 00:11:07,980 think you found it that it came from, from the Sphinx tribe. 186 00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:09,600 That was existed. 187 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:13,800 Yeah, but for some reason that didn't show up. In in my app. I 188 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,710 don't know. I'm on graphene. Oh, so God knows what's what's going 189 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:16,980 on? 190 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:18,450 Yeah, so 191 00:11:18,540 --> 00:11:21,990 I'm not. I'm quick to blame Sphinx. They could easily be 192 00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:25,530 just, yeah, this is not meant to run the Android stuff that Well, 193 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:26,100 whatever. 194 00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:29,910 Every time I see a big boost go through on anything. I'm always 195 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,840 my first thought is mastery. I'm glad that channel was big 196 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:34,110 enough. 197 00:11:34,619 --> 00:11:37,799 So that's the first thing I did is like, Oh, shit is that where 198 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:40,619 did that come from? I want to make sure I got some channels to 199 00:11:40,619 --> 00:11:43,619 work in. Because it was a lot. That was huge. That was like 200 00:11:43,619 --> 00:11:45,959 200,000 SATs or something was crazy. 201 00:11:46,170 --> 00:11:50,700 The way we got like, the analogy for channels is always like the 202 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:54,750 abacus where you're sliding gaps from the right. Like you always 203 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:56,610 think when you see this huge boost to some I grabbed the 204 00:11:56,610 --> 00:11:57,540 abacus and just turned. 205 00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:00,540 Yeah, they all got to the right. 206 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,700 Exactly. For those of you who don't know, we're talking about 207 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,300 apps such as pod friend breeze, swings, chat, and the pod 208 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:14,700 station, browser extension, all of them with their own 209 00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:18,570 individual look and feel and thoughts and interfaces. And and 210 00:12:18,570 --> 00:12:22,800 I had a huge wins. I've never, ever participated in an issue on 211 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,250 a GitHub for a serious project. And I've never been taken 212 00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:33,240 seriously. Score. But I went to the, you know, I saw someone had 213 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,020 posted a number of people actually posted about I think 214 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:39,480 might have been Brian of London or some other people chimed in 215 00:12:39,810 --> 00:12:44,550 about the breeze, boost. And really, the more the boost 216 00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:47,730 functionality than the than the SATs per minute. It's like you 217 00:12:47,730 --> 00:12:50,040 only do it in increments. And people want to do specific 218 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:56,880 numbers. They want to do like have a 33 in there, or 69 or a 219 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,180 1337. There's all these little codes that people really enjoy. 220 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:06,210 And it'll be it's more relevant in a in a situation like like 221 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,350 like a Sphynx chat tribe. But I can see with the activity pub, 222 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:16,620 why wouldn't a boost also go through as a and show up in the 223 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:19,620 comments or in maybe in a special boost section with, you 224 00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:21,870 know, the alias of the person who sent it in the amount, you 225 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:24,690 know that we know that this is this is a gamified thing that 226 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:31,410 people really enjoy doing. But you can't do those numbers. And, 227 00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:35,310 and so, you know, someone had posted that. And then there was 228 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,550 in the breeze developers like now we're not going to do that. 229 00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:41,820 That's makes no sense. And I said, Well, here's my experience 230 00:13:41,820 --> 00:13:43,830 with it and went back and forth a couple times. And then all of 231 00:13:43,830 --> 00:13:46,380 a sudden was like now Alright, you've convinced me done. We're 232 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:47,850 doing it like wow. 233 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:50,220 Yeah, okay, I'm good. 234 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:51,210 Wow. 235 00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:55,200 That's it. Like, that's an important thing, because I 236 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:00,090 always boost. I've got this pattern now where I boost twice 237 00:14:00,090 --> 00:14:04,110 when I start listening to you. And then if I have to stop and 238 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:07,170 come back, basically, every time I'd begin listening, either from 239 00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:09,840 the beginning or pick it back up, where it left off, I throw a 240 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,940 boost in there, right? And then I always give it usually a 241 00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:15,270 couple of booths at the end. So it's like I'm going broke, but 242 00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:17,490 it's Same, same same thing. Yeah, I've 243 00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:21,120 been going pretty broke myself, you know, cuz pot frame is, is 244 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:24,720 1000 sets of boot boost fixed at the moment? It's a little Yeah, 245 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,590 little wrench for me, you know, because I'm a 500 set guy. Like 246 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:31,560 I might hit you four times in a longer show, depending on what's 247 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,610 going on. Or I'll hit you. Yeah, quick cup. Like, I always boost 248 00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:37,080 Cridland. Yeah, 249 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:38,310 right. Yeah, boost 250 00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:41,520 employee, always 1000 SAS and if he says something nice about us, 251 00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:46,620 give me another 1000 many times, like how can I just I'd like to 252 00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:48,750 remove some stats from what I just heard. 253 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,300 To get a refund. 254 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:56,550 I was listening to pod land which I stream stats to them for 255 00:14:56,550 --> 00:15:02,070 that I really enjoyed pod land. And Holy crap, man. Had the, the 256 00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:09,480 host on from the libsyn podcast, which is all about libsyn. And 257 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:14,250 oh my gosh, she, I, okay, she's the face of their company for 258 00:15:14,250 --> 00:15:17,490 the podcast with man. She's hypee without saying anything. 259 00:15:18,450 --> 00:15:20,520 And then he asks about what you guys going to support 260 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,390 podcasting. 2.0 and she wanted this whole lot, which is like, 261 00:15:24,570 --> 00:15:27,510 stop. You're killing me. Give me some sense back. I don't want to 262 00:15:27,510 --> 00:15:31,950 hear it like this. Just Say No. Just Say No, you're not really 263 00:15:31,950 --> 00:15:32,850 doing it yet. 264 00:15:33,150 --> 00:15:37,890 A d boost. D boost Exactly. Down Down the down boost, huh? 265 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,420 Let me see, we got a lot. And I want to make sure that we get 266 00:15:42,420 --> 00:15:44,550 some of this stuff out of the way, because we're going to go 267 00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:47,280 in completely the opposite direction with our guest today 268 00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:52,260 in the boardroom, who was dropped by to let us pick his 269 00:15:52,260 --> 00:15:56,220 brain and hopefully vice versa. Oh, yeah, just want to mention 270 00:15:56,220 --> 00:16:00,510 that the podcast index, which should be receiving 271 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:07,080 approximately 1% of the of the transactions taking place. Right 272 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,520 now we're, we're, it's we don't really have a big enough sample 273 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,650 size because of, you know, like, when Martin's when podcast, pod 274 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:21,270 friend came online, you know, his massive, massive boosting A 275 00:16:21,270 --> 00:16:24,690 lot of you know, things have normalized a little bit now. I 276 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:29,430 would say the index is receiving somewhere in the neighborhood of 277 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:37,050 $9 average per day, which I'm super excited by. Now, first of 278 00:16:37,050 --> 00:16:40,680 all this, this means that, you know, there's $900 flowing 279 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:46,020 through the system. Yeah, I love that. That's like, Whoa, that's 280 00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:46,770 $100 281 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:47,460 a day 282 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:52,440 a day. Yeah. And by the way, if, you know, there's also the, 283 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,290 whatever the amount of transactions is, the same goes 284 00:16:55,290 --> 00:16:59,880 to podcast app developers. So and, you know, all I see is I 285 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,870 see a flywheel. You know, I see this thing, turning and every 286 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:08,100 single minute of every of the 24 hours, there's at least a 287 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:11,910 Satoshi, sometimes three coming through. And it's just, it's 288 00:17:11,910 --> 00:17:15,990 just a perpetual motion machine. So all we need to do is get more 289 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:19,470 people going, get more listeners, using apps do a 290 00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:22,620 better job of promoting our apps doing a better job of onboarding 291 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:26,880 people doing a better job of explaining. What are we up to 292 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:33,840 now, but 150 155 podcasts that are enabled value for value 293 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,020 streaming payment enabled? Think so 294 00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:42,870 I can look that up? I think it was like 150 maybe 160 1000? 295 00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:48,120 Okay, cuz it was like one, man. Let me just do the demo. Look up 296 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:52,470 here. I need I need to put that on the website. 297 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:54,000 We have a stamp. Yeah, yeah. 298 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,250 We have a number of that. We've been talking with Eric to we got 299 00:17:56,250 --> 00:18:00,360 to get some some stats. Because we have interesting stats, 300 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:04,470 actually. And it seems like the industry is surprised that we 301 00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:10,260 have so many podcasts in the podcast index in the podcast 302 00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:14,010 index that are not listed on the I don't know Apple like oh, gee, 303 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:14,760 go figure. 304 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,000 Of course we do ever. That was very good. I thought that was 305 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,110 very interesting. What 306 00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:21,029 doesn't surprise me at all. 307 00:18:21,869 --> 00:18:24,539 I mean, like, there's one some host, he was talking about a 308 00:18:24,539 --> 00:18:28,769 large host. He's evidently the name but a large host. It's only 309 00:18:28,769 --> 00:18:31,529 50% of their shows are not during the apple date. Right. 310 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:32,340 Right. All right. 311 00:18:32,909 --> 00:18:35,429 Does that mean that you know, that's kind of crazy. Clearly, 312 00:18:35,459 --> 00:18:36,539 Christopher I seen. 313 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:39,720 Oh, now that we have the secret weapon. Yeah, we have the secret 314 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,710 weapon is 315 00:18:41,819 --> 00:18:44,129 there's almost no, there's almost 3 million in there now. 316 00:18:44,129 --> 00:18:44,369 Right? 317 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,910 Yeah. No, he gives it every day. The first thing I see is is only 318 00:18:47,910 --> 00:18:50,310 274,000 left to go. 319 00:18:51,869 --> 00:18:55,559 Because I was like, so we got up to I really misunderstood him at 320 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:58,589 the beginning. Because I thought he was saying that we're total 321 00:18:58,589 --> 00:19:03,089 that we would end up around 2.7 million. And when he finished, 322 00:19:03,209 --> 00:19:07,649 but then he's like, no, he said, Well, we were at 2.7. We got 323 00:19:07,649 --> 00:19:12,239 540,000. He goes Oh, crap. Okay. Anything about backup 324 00:19:12,239 --> 00:19:16,289 strategies. This database is getting rather large. Yeah, I 325 00:19:16,290 --> 00:19:17,640 bet. I'll bet Yeah. 326 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,430 Yeah, it's the it's the episodes table that is just like 327 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:23,460 gargantuan now. I mean, it's, I don't even know how many it is 328 00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:25,650 10s of millions of episodes. 329 00:19:25,890 --> 00:19:29,340 So one of the exciting things that that's kind of been taking 330 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:34,140 place over the past week has been a tight collaboration with 331 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:40,080 ln pay. And I'm excited about this. And I've had a long long 332 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,740 think about and the vacation was good for this and we we kind of 333 00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:47,730 left a day or two after we pre recorded with Ryan Gentry and so 334 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:50,370 I got a much better understanding of some of the 335 00:19:50,370 --> 00:19:54,630 religion of the lightning network, which I'm not I have no 336 00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:58,440 problem discussing. It seems like it's a lot of hush hush but 337 00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:02,460 but the you know, the religious issue here is custodial versus 338 00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:07,440 non custodial. And noncustodial. Meaning that you run your own 339 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,730 node or you have a path such as breeze, which is very close to 340 00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:14,220 running it is it is your own full node. But you know, there's 341 00:20:14,220 --> 00:20:21,900 some channel management that they're doing. versus a much 342 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:27,870 simpler to set up system, which is custodial, such as ln pay 343 00:20:27,870 --> 00:20:32,280 where your $20 of podcast money is sitting on a node that 344 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,340 someone else that you don't own the keys to, let's put it that 345 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:39,180 way. And so that's where you hit the monitor, not your keys, not 346 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:44,790 your Bitcoin. True. And I think for onboarding of podcasters not 347 00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:50,370 for app for apps right now. And when I look at will breeze is 348 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,420 obviously super, super slick. And you know, they help you 349 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:57,300 onboard by getting Bitcoin and Yeah, they do have some some 350 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:01,080 podcast, player issues that they need to focus on. Because people 351 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,590 don't just want to pay and, and send value, they also want the 352 00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:08,760 features they like. And I think that they'll they have listened, 353 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,120 I think they know most of what they want to do. pod friend is 354 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:16,860 fantastic experience. Certainly, if you if you already have 355 00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:19,860 satoshis. But if you have a separate wallet, I mean, that 356 00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:24,060 just is slick, and I love his explanation. For podcasters, 357 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:28,410 though, we really don't have great solutions. I love the 358 00:21:28,410 --> 00:21:34,020 tribes that that Sphinx chat has, it's not really great for a 359 00:21:34,020 --> 00:21:38,460 receiving station for your podcast, streaming payments. Now 360 00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:41,820 you have the breeze voltage, and this is all stuff that pops up 361 00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:45,570 if you if you're ready to register and start receiving 362 00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:51,900 payments, and the voltage node cost $17 a month is gonna get I 363 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,140 mean, that's like I use one, it's guaranteed it's gonna be 364 00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:58,230 up, it's great, it's solid is fantastic. You do have to do 365 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:02,430 your own channel management. I'm sorry, I know a breeze breeze 366 00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:05,520 manages your channel. So you don't have to do that. But it's 367 00:22:05,550 --> 00:22:12,060 lacking in much else. You have some lightning network node 368 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:17,850 management tools, they do have a podcast tab, which shows you 369 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,500 what you received in a graph over time, but it really doesn't 370 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:27,540 have any level of statistics. And, you know, having worked 371 00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:32,310 with Tim and lm pay for Well, shit for since almost since we 372 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:36,480 started this. I mean, he's super stoked to work on, you know, 373 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,480 creating a good onboarding experience working on 374 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,270 statistics, so we can get something cool for podcast. 375 00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:45,480 Yeah, this is what the Satoshi stream guys have. And if you 376 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,670 don't know what I'm talking about, then you're just lost I'm 377 00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:52,440 sorry. But the Satoshi stream guys, they have a lot going for 378 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,390 them. Except you know, it's not really structured. They don't 379 00:22:57,390 --> 00:23:02,100 have the same, you know, they're really sharing one node similar 380 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:05,790 to lm pay, but I think lm pay has been around has got a lot 381 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:10,080 more going for it to host podcasts or wallets. 382 00:23:11,609 --> 00:23:15,839 The there really needs to be more than one level of this 383 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:17,849 thing, I think is what we're discovering at this point, 384 00:23:17,849 --> 00:23:22,139 because you're going to have and this is probably fits in real 385 00:23:22,139 --> 00:23:26,219 well with with what we'll talk about with our guest today. But 386 00:23:26,639 --> 00:23:33,269 like there really needs to be probably a custodial service. 387 00:23:33,269 --> 00:23:36,359 And this may creep all the lightning people out. But I 388 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,379 mean, like, Oh, you know, quote him from yesterday, he's like, 389 00:23:40,529 --> 00:23:44,759 you really don't need to worry about it. If it's kista He's 390 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:47,939 like, what you don't really need to be noncustodial for $2? 391 00:23:48,059 --> 00:23:51,239 Well, exactly. It's like the it's like the store where you 392 00:23:51,239 --> 00:23:53,789 have the cash drawer. And then you want to take it to your 393 00:23:53,789 --> 00:23:57,449 bank. So every night the way I what I plan to do is I want us 394 00:23:57,449 --> 00:23:59,849 and of course it's easy to switch you just you know, you 395 00:23:59,849 --> 00:24:02,549 switch it in podcast or wallet calm, you switch your node, 396 00:24:02,879 --> 00:24:06,719 boom. And it's going in everything streaming somewhere 397 00:24:06,719 --> 00:24:11,009 else. I'd like it for the statistics. And then you know, 398 00:24:11,009 --> 00:24:13,889 every night I'll just poop it out, send it to my end to my 399 00:24:13,889 --> 00:24:15,989 bank, which is my, my, my big node. 400 00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:20,430 Well, you know, the Satoshi stream guys showed that there is 401 00:24:20,430 --> 00:24:26,160 a need for for onboarding small podcast Yes. Big because, like, 402 00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:31,440 okay, so if you're, let's just say that you're Tim Poole or Joe 403 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,580 Rogan, or some some big podcast, is this doing a whole lot of 404 00:24:35,580 --> 00:24:40,380 revenue and has a humongous listener base? Well, I mean, $17 405 00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:43,230 a month for a voltage node is not a big deal. You probably 406 00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:46,110 you're probably, you know, able to pay a guy to manage your 407 00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:48,240 channels for you. So Exactly. 408 00:24:48,329 --> 00:24:50,999 There's a lot of people who have anchor feeds and they take what 409 00:24:50,999 --> 00:24:53,249 they get, and when they want to be a little more structured and 410 00:24:53,249 --> 00:24:55,829 get some shit going and they move to a paid solution. That's 411 00:24:55,829 --> 00:24:57,599 exactly it's the same analogy. I 412 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,970 agree. So the cost of having a custodian Do podcaster wallet, 413 00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:07,290 having that option available to you, if you're making, you know, 414 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,400 $50 a month on your podcast that you know, 17 bucks is a big 415 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,790 percentage of your 50 bucks. Having a custodial service it 416 00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:18,570 makes makes sense. And then if you get big, big enough, well, 417 00:25:18,570 --> 00:25:22,050 then you move to a noncustodial service. And the whole time even 418 00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:25,950 if it is custodial, you can be autumn you can be sending your 419 00:25:25,950 --> 00:25:31,650 SATs to a off to air to your own Raspberry Pi or what? Yeah, the 420 00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:32,700 phaser nothing. So 421 00:25:32,910 --> 00:25:33,660 yeah, 422 00:25:33,780 --> 00:25:36,210 I think it's necessary. I completely 423 00:25:36,209 --> 00:25:41,459 agree. And, and I like the work that Satoshi streams has done 424 00:25:41,459 --> 00:25:46,319 and is doing with statistics, they've really driven a lot of 425 00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:53,069 the TLV record adoption and, and you know, which is already kind 426 00:25:53,069 --> 00:25:56,669 of working almost everywhere. And once we get that published 427 00:25:56,669 --> 00:25:58,799 properly, I mean, it's going to be great, we'll be able to 428 00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:02,429 recognize, hopefully a lot, a lot of things, whatever we want 429 00:26:02,489 --> 00:26:05,699 that or whatever people will want. But what 430 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:08,550 we need those we need, there's a couple of things I want to talk 431 00:26:08,550 --> 00:26:16,320 about on this. So with, with the records, attended, Ellen pay, 432 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,460 has, he's got his custom records he needs for his routing. 433 00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:25,230 There's some custom record routing based routing that 434 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,880 Snake's needs as well for private channels. So we there is 435 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,720 a there are two properties in the value block value recipient 436 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:40,620 tag called custom key and custom value. And so the that is for 437 00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:45,090 primary routing. And I think I saw this morning that this 438 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:50,250 stream was like, I am disappointed that this is in the 439 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:54,600 spec and it's not got room for more key value pairs. And 440 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:58,260 there's a misunderstanding there like that, that custom key 441 00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:02,220 custom value probably is poorly named, it should probably be 442 00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:05,220 routing key routing value. Because what what what I'm 443 00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:09,600 intending that for is just, this is the thing that's going to be 444 00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:16,170 if, if a route is needed, on the on the destination side, we can 445 00:27:16,170 --> 00:27:21,870 easily put in an another attribute in the value recipient 446 00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:25,800 tag holder that holds a bigger payload of key value pair. There 447 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,490 they go there yeah, that can just it can just be something 448 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:34,530 like payload equal or to be equal. It can just be key colon 449 00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:37,770 value, semi colon key colon, but it could just be you just parse 450 00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:41,310 that out. But do we have no way is it is shutting that down? 451 00:27:41,339 --> 00:27:44,399 Okay, good, good, but it seems like we need to merge some of 452 00:27:44,399 --> 00:27:50,279 these things because everyone's got TLV numbers and a lot of 453 00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:51,329 stuff going on there. 454 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,960 Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and finish that up. Because I'm back 455 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,470 in the namespace a little bit right now getting doing that and 456 00:27:58,470 --> 00:28:01,170 I'm in that mindset right now. So I'm go ahead and put that in 457 00:28:01,170 --> 00:28:03,000 there and I'll talk to them about it and make sure that what 458 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,490 we put in is is going to be useful 459 00:28:06,030 --> 00:28:09,630 over there on the corner is our guest for today. If he hasn't 460 00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:13,140 fallen asleep and we apologize it's just it's been so long for 461 00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:18,300 us to catch up. We have a I call him the man with the bag you 462 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:21,540 know he's holding the big bag and all the cool stuff the other 463 00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:25,410 side of the table but isn't really welcome to the to the 464 00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:30,150 board meeting Brian Barletta of sounds profitable. Hey, thanks 465 00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:30,780 for having me. 466 00:28:30,809 --> 00:28:32,159 Yeah, I'm glad you're still here. 467 00:28:33,540 --> 00:28:35,850 No, it's great listen you guys catch up I actually been 468 00:28:35,850 --> 00:28:38,670 listening to the last few episodes right before this so 469 00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:42,120 missing that week gave me a little bit of time to make sure 470 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,440 I was up to speed with everything 471 00:28:44,069 --> 00:28:47,489 you get you're not you're not full of stale cheap boardroom 472 00:28:47,489 --> 00:28:49,679 coffee and ready to go 473 00:28:50,099 --> 00:28:52,169 yeah that half donut sitting there was perfect 474 00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:59,640 you know when when us whenever I see your name I think I see it 475 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:05,190 in print I always read it Beretta the old TV show you you 476 00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:08,610 got you've got that you got that Moxie for me like the guy that 477 00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:11,310 you're talking about before the show like the guy that everybody 478 00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:15,780 hates on both sides the as the the non the privacy guys hate 479 00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:18,000 you. Well, that's good. But you're really on both sides of 480 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,120 it. 481 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,550 Yes. Look get a little background on Brian here because 482 00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:23,850 just saying sounds profitable sound sounds profitable. Calm is 483 00:29:23,850 --> 00:29:29,070 not enough. You know, you're you're around us and I think the 484 00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:33,300 connection there is James Cridland, but not quite sure how 485 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:36,270 the connection works. I'd love to hear a little bit about 486 00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:39,060 sounds profitable, where your where your, what your background 487 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:43,140 is, and then how we can save you from James Cridland because you 488 00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:47,100 know, you must clearly be a hostage of some sorts. No, 489 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,590 no, James honestly I'm so thankful for him. We met at 490 00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:53,220 podcast movement after years of me following his his work and he 491 00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:55,740 gave me the ability to talk to more people and give me a 492 00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:59,370 platform. So yeah, Brian Barletta from sounds profitable, 493 00:29:59,370 --> 00:30:03,930 and I Write about podcasts, ad tech and advertising in general. 494 00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:07,920 I have been working in advertising technology for 12 495 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,280 years as either a product manager or a sales engineer. And 496 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,490 the last six have been in podcasting, specifically with a 497 00:30:14,490 --> 00:30:17,910 stint at barometric and then Claire to us as one of the 498 00:30:17,910 --> 00:30:21,330 founding members there, and then a shorter period of time with 499 00:30:21,330 --> 00:30:26,220 megaphone running data and monetization for them. And we 500 00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:29,130 started actually right around the same time. So in September 501 00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:33,120 of last year, 2020 was when sounds profitable, started as a 502 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,360 newsletter, and I pulled up the email as two weeks into it. And 503 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,670 I sent you an email and I was like, I'd love to talk to you 504 00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:41,280 about this, because I love what you guys are doing here. And it 505 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,910 was really cool to just see that we we went at it from different 506 00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:47,610 sides. Like we said, these are conversations that need to be 507 00:30:47,610 --> 00:30:50,160 had. There's technology and developers and engineers 508 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,250 involved in these things. It's more than just salespeople. It's 509 00:30:53,250 --> 00:30:57,180 more than just content creators. And I think we kind of took 510 00:30:57,180 --> 00:31:00,870 different sides of the same approach, and have been starting 511 00:31:00,870 --> 00:31:04,260 up the conversation. And so it's, it's awesome to be here. 512 00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:06,240 I'm very, very excited to be talking about, 513 00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:08,520 did I reply to your email? 514 00:31:08,970 --> 00:31:09,990 You did? Oh, my 515 00:31:10,139 --> 00:31:14,609 God. Oh, my God. I said, I said, I need some time to step away 516 00:31:14,609 --> 00:31:17,009 from me. I need. You said, Well, I 517 00:31:17,010 --> 00:31:19,110 think it was where you were, because I was like, hey, let's 518 00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:21,000 talk about advertising. And here's like, I got thoughts 519 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,070 about it. But I gotta let them marinate a little bit. Yes, 520 00:31:23,070 --> 00:31:25,890 yes. Okay. I remember now, and I have 521 00:31:26,099 --> 00:31:28,769 seven and a half months isn't appropriate. marination. And I 522 00:31:28,769 --> 00:31:32,009 mean, all three of us have really been on like a rocket 523 00:31:32,009 --> 00:31:32,609 course with. 524 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:36,299 Yeah. And I want to make something clear from from the 525 00:31:36,299 --> 00:31:40,439 get go right off the bat, that I have no problem with marketing 526 00:31:40,439 --> 00:31:43,409 and advertising. You cannot live in a world without marketing and 527 00:31:43,409 --> 00:31:47,699 advertising because it would be very dull, very boring. But just 528 00:31:47,699 --> 00:31:51,659 like we have, I think retooled podcasting, I think we can 529 00:31:51,659 --> 00:31:56,669 retool advertising and I seeburger get to that. So just 530 00:31:56,669 --> 00:32:03,419 upfront, even though I do feel that advertising is you can just 531 00:32:03,419 --> 00:32:06,779 say it censorship, because at the basis, you're never going to 532 00:32:06,779 --> 00:32:10,349 say anything negative about your advertiser. There's something 533 00:32:10,349 --> 00:32:15,449 that is overlooked. I feel, and it's exactly what you're doing. 534 00:32:15,449 --> 00:32:20,789 And it's exactly what James is doing is the idea of a 535 00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:24,779 newsletter. And it made me chuckle I was, of course I was 536 00:32:24,779 --> 00:32:30,749 listening to I can't, I might it might have been pod news, I 537 00:32:30,749 --> 00:32:35,069 don't remember what it was, or maybe pod land. And James was 538 00:32:35,069 --> 00:32:41,669 thanking a gold sponsor is and he said, me, I want to thank so 539 00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:44,759 and so for returning as a gold sponsor, so that we can do 540 00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:50,849 independent journalists. You know, I understand what he's 541 00:32:50,849 --> 00:32:53,999 saying. But of course, is horse crap, because it's not 542 00:32:53,999 --> 00:32:57,149 independent if you're being paid by the advertiser who you then 543 00:32:57,179 --> 00:33:01,289 subsequently do stories on. But that's okay. Because everybody 544 00:33:01,289 --> 00:33:04,019 knows what's going on. And when you have a newsletter, or a 545 00:33:04,019 --> 00:33:08,819 product, which is sponsored, or somehow you're monetizing, with 546 00:33:11,999 --> 00:33:15,869 companies in the industry, so I was, you know, PC Magazine, 547 00:33:15,869 --> 00:33:19,349 brides magazine, you know, whatever it is, then if Vogue, 548 00:33:19,379 --> 00:33:22,619 Vogue, to me is the best advertising in the world, the 549 00:33:22,769 --> 00:33:28,349 content is actually the ads. So this is very beneficial to 550 00:33:28,349 --> 00:33:30,629 people, and everybody understands it, but we have a 551 00:33:30,629 --> 00:33:36,239 lot of misunderstanding about what advertising is. And so I 552 00:33:36,239 --> 00:33:38,939 think where the industry is going, and then I'll shut up 553 00:33:38,939 --> 00:33:41,819 because I really want to hear what you have to say, is towards 554 00:33:41,909 --> 00:33:46,589 programmatic slamming stuff in doing it with the attribution 555 00:33:46,589 --> 00:33:49,589 figuring out exactly where people live, what they smoke, 556 00:33:49,589 --> 00:33:53,789 what they drink, how they, how they act. And, you know, and, 557 00:33:53,849 --> 00:33:58,139 and then cross profiling, whatever, whatever we can do, to 558 00:33:58,139 --> 00:34:02,159 deliver, you know, the audience to the advertiser. That's how it 559 00:34:02,159 --> 00:34:06,089 feels, which is not what I ever envisioned for podcasting, but 560 00:34:06,089 --> 00:34:10,229 that's the obvious path that it is taken. How's that going? 561 00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:17,640 Oh, not good. happening. It's what I love about podcasting is 562 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,430 like, first of all, like, I'm with you on a lot of this stuff. 563 00:34:20,430 --> 00:34:23,310 Like I think podcasting technology is neat. I like the 564 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:27,330 tools like, I'm not the best at like selling ads or like 565 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,450 successfully running a campaign. But I know the tools that people 566 00:34:30,450 --> 00:34:34,110 smarter than me can use to do that. Nobody likes bad ads. 567 00:34:34,140 --> 00:34:38,130 Nobody likes ads that don't fit either to them, or ideally also 568 00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:41,970 to them in the context. And they stand out like a sore thumb. And 569 00:34:41,970 --> 00:34:45,090 so there's this mindset on like, the bigger side of it is that 570 00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:47,520 everybody wants programmatic. They want that Sunday, Sunday, 571 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,110 Sunday ads slammed in there that 572 00:34:49,380 --> 00:34:51,960 was everybody. Brian, when you say everybody is that the 573 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,710 advertisers, the agencies, the ad networks, the podcasters, the 574 00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:56,520 listeners, 575 00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:59,280 I said the voices that are talking about this world of 576 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,160 programmatic In the world of like invasive data, the world of 577 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,440 radio ads slammed in and programmatic I think, are just 578 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,930 the naysayers. They're the they're the industry, people 579 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,500 drumming up the hate for the people that are just like slowly 580 00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:13,530 on the tail end of that listening in, right? Because 581 00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:16,350 like, the further higher up, you get into that space, you don't 582 00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:18,990 have to deal with that. Like I think programmatic has a cool 583 00:35:18,990 --> 00:35:21,300 place. I think it's a neat technology. I think it's order 584 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:24,240 management. But there's no company out there that's just 585 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:27,510 like, Hey, I got eight ad slots, put whatever you want in there, 586 00:35:27,660 --> 00:35:29,760 right? They're gonna drop down and downloads, they're gonna 587 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,120 drop in rankings. And the bigger you get, the more you don't even 588 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,930 have to do advertising. As we look at like buy impressions and 589 00:35:36,930 --> 00:35:40,050 conversion, you can just do sponsorship. Right? There are so 590 00:35:40,050 --> 00:35:43,200 many different ways to go at it. So this fear of what 591 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,800 programmatic can be this fear of invasiveness is something that 592 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,600 people in like this mid level, talk about, and hype up the 593 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,570 negativity around, and then pass it down to the people that are 594 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,240 as close as possible to the consumer level. So more of the 595 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:00,990 longtail and it gets that fear going. But the The truth is, is 596 00:36:00,990 --> 00:36:04,980 it's just not. It's not there. Like we're getting so little 597 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:07,800 data and podcasting. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, 598 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,260 like we're ahead of the curve, just because we couldn't get 599 00:36:10,260 --> 00:36:13,710 more IP and user agent user agents useless. You can't buy 600 00:36:13,710 --> 00:36:17,460 anything inside the Spotify app, so that just a dead end. It just 601 00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:20,370 tells me what app you're on and what device you're on. IP 602 00:36:20,370 --> 00:36:23,430 address. Yeah, it's personally identifiable information. But 603 00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:25,740 there's regulations and stuff going on there. And there need 604 00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:28,620 to be a little bit more, and it's gonna help, 605 00:36:28,860 --> 00:36:33,480 but it'll get Isn't it? Isn't the problem? It mean, just at 606 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,190 the at the basic problem is, it's an open system, no one has 607 00:36:38,190 --> 00:36:43,380 a lock on it. I mean, you and the industry in general talks a 608 00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:47,070 lot about what Spotify is doing. Isn't that exactly the direction 609 00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:49,770 they're taking what they call podcasting? 610 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,280 I mean, at the end of the day, do you call the news on Facebook 611 00:36:53,310 --> 00:36:55,680 news? Or is it Facebook's curated content? 612 00:36:55,710 --> 00:36:59,370 Well, no. But my point is, they're doing the programmatic 613 00:37:00,150 --> 00:37:03,420 inserts, dynamic streaming insertion, wherever it's called. 614 00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:06,150 I mean, that seems to be their dream, which to me is like, 615 00:37:06,180 --> 00:37:09,810 Well, yeah, 2009, we were looking at that, and then it 616 00:37:09,810 --> 00:37:11,130 started to suck, then. 617 00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:14,340 Yeah, and I think Spotify is an interesting case, because 618 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:16,740 everybody tries to call it podcast advertising. And I make 619 00:37:16,740 --> 00:37:19,650 it a priority to call it app advertising, where the contents 620 00:37:19,650 --> 00:37:24,510 podcasting, or music. Right, because it is the app, the Joe 621 00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:27,480 Rogan podcast, if you listen to it, 10 seconds into it, there's 622 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,180 a streaming ad insertion point. And that what happens there, if 623 00:37:30,180 --> 00:37:33,240 you look at the like the marquee that's streaming, it'll say the 624 00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,270 name of the episode The 10. Second markets, your app 625 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:39,390 immediately starts naming the file, which is the advertiser. 626 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,510 And in the app has paused the mp3 is inserted, like the app 627 00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:48,210 has taken control. Now it knows that you're exactly listening to 628 00:37:48,210 --> 00:37:51,600 it. If you hit play for two seconds turn on airplane mode, 629 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,690 when you get to that 10. second mark, the app just fails, the 630 00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:58,200 episode is done. Because the app can't make that call for the 631 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,530 streaming add the podcast experiences interrupted, which 632 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,200 is an ideal for anybody. I'm sure Spotify will change that. 633 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,650 But when we talk about podcast advertising, and push Spotify 634 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,230 firmly to the side, because they're an app whose content 635 00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:13,920 includes podcasting, but when I talk about programmatic, I talk 636 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,300 about when someone presses play on a podcast, it's setting their 637 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:21,000 IP and user agent and the content they want. And they're 638 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,250 taking that info and saying, What do I know about this 639 00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:27,150 episode, the time of day, and this listener, that I can fill 640 00:38:27,150 --> 00:38:29,430 these potential ad slots based on what's available for 641 00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:32,700 inventory, and some of it can be direct sold. Some of it can be a 642 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,000 second seat sellers, like their teams like megaphone and a cast. 643 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,640 And all these partners will sell whatever you don't directly 644 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,640 sell. And then the third part can be programmatic kicked up to 645 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,760 an open marketplace or private marketplace, where you set rules 646 00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:47,190 of what they can do with that data, and what they can send 647 00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:50,430 back and how much visibility they have. But I mean, like I 648 00:38:50,430 --> 00:38:53,130 can open up my inventory to programmatic. And I can simply 649 00:38:53,130 --> 00:38:56,250 just say, I want to approve every creative. And so that 650 00:38:56,250 --> 00:38:58,590 means I might miss out on campaigns. That means it's a lot 651 00:38:58,590 --> 00:39:01,050 of account management, but I can stop that control. 652 00:39:01,110 --> 00:39:06,120 You have a very varied background, but all in this in 653 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,880 this general industry. I've I've made the assertion and maybe you 654 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,360 can help me with some data that you have or is there a suspect 655 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,890 that Spotify cannot actually fulfill the inventory they're 656 00:39:19,890 --> 00:39:23,010 promising to advertisers and when I saw the Michelle Obama 657 00:39:23,010 --> 00:39:26,250 podcast open up all of a sudden it was not exclusive. It was 658 00:39:26,250 --> 00:39:32,130 available and other apps. To me, it was like hmm, are they able 659 00:39:32,130 --> 00:39:36,240 to deliver can they deliver the the rates that they that they 660 00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:39,660 launched with and they promised to advertisers? Do you hear 661 00:39:39,660 --> 00:39:41,700 anything about that? You know, 662 00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:45,240 I mean, I truly believe Spotify bought megaphone for the sales 663 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,060 team and the reach I think Spotify what they have set up 664 00:39:48,060 --> 00:39:51,540 for Spotify as the streaming ad insertion product, they're 665 00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:53,730 filling out like I don't think that they have a problem with 666 00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:57,330 that but not a lot of their shows that are directly owned, 667 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,200 even use that I mean, I believe the bill Simmons podcasts that 668 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,920 they own doesn't. It sounds like it's baked in how it's set up. I 669 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,460 could be wrong. And kudos to that producer for making dynamic 670 00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:12,450 ad insertion some baked in. But I think that the truth is, is 671 00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:16,470 that not enough podcasts? Not enough podcasts on the Spotify 672 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:20,460 app have implemented that technology yet. And when you see 673 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:22,680 these things about exclusive, I actually think it's more about 674 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,070 the creators expressing control. Right. Like, I think that they 675 00:40:26,070 --> 00:40:29,730 looked at it. And they said, We could go about this that 676 00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:32,010 specific way and make it completely exclusive. But I 677 00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:35,070 think that the, you know, in the Michelle Obama example, I think, 678 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,680 I think that was more creator controlled an advertorial is. 679 00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:40,890 Yeah, because you're not going to hear anything but baked in 680 00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:43,860 ads for for the Renegades and the Michelle Obama, right? 681 00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:46,230 Because they need that level of control. Like, 682 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:50,610 is renegades open to? Is that subscribable outside of Spotify? 683 00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:53,700 I don't think it is. I think that that one is only in the 684 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:56,610 app, but that one, to my knowledge, he is going to be 685 00:40:56,610 --> 00:41:00,210 baked in ads, because that's a level of control the the content 686 00:41:00,210 --> 00:41:03,570 creator gets a shirt because they say like my brand, and 687 00:41:03,570 --> 00:41:07,830 reputation is critical. And I can't provide you anything that 688 00:41:07,830 --> 00:41:11,040 you can insert something to and accidentally put an ad in that I 689 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,150 didn't agree with. Right? 690 00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:15,000 what's right, that that tells me that there that there may be 691 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,940 some sort of like internal tension or struggle, 692 00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:21,210 there's got to be I tried to do this kind of network. It's 693 00:41:21,210 --> 00:41:21,900 sucks. 694 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,060 I can't imagine a lot of because you're, you're dealing like 695 00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:29,730 you're dealing with like five separate companies, right to 696 00:41:29,730 --> 00:41:31,890 technology companies through content companies. And 697 00:41:31,890 --> 00:41:34,260 then here's what happened. here's, here's what happens. 698 00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:37,440 Those guys get all the big exclusives. Well, they got the 699 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,540 cool Pro, how can we get the shit product, we don't get 700 00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:41,850 enough exposure on the homepage. I've 701 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,050 heard it all man. And then add in the worst part of it all like 702 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,470 that. It's a publicly traded company. That sounds cool when 703 00:41:49,470 --> 00:41:52,050 you're like running a startup, like sell an IPO and all that 704 00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:56,010 stuff. But like the pressure, you lose a lot of ability of 705 00:41:56,010 --> 00:41:58,920 what you can do not like not necessarily on like the like 706 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,980 skirting legality sense, but in the sense that you're beholden 707 00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:06,300 to way bigger structures. Yeah, you can't add and move. 708 00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:10,950 I don't understand the exclusive thing at all. I mean, why if 709 00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:14,820 you're, if you're trying to sell if, if you're fun if your 710 00:42:14,850 --> 00:42:21,240 primary funding comes through ad sales? Why would you limit your 711 00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:26,460 reach to an app that has the at most 20% of the market? 25% of 712 00:42:26,460 --> 00:42:26,910 the marketing 713 00:42:26,910 --> 00:42:30,900 I can answer that is because it's a technology company. 714 00:42:31,170 --> 00:42:35,160 They're valued as a technology company. And so all of their 715 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,490 sizzle comes from look at this cool technology. Look at the 716 00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:42,570 streaming ad insertion. Take it from me, they're bound by 717 00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:44,940 technology. Now they've sold it as such. 718 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,370 I just don't like yeah, it's got to be some. It's got to be 719 00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:53,340 something like that some sort of internal tension where Yeah, 720 00:42:53,370 --> 00:42:58,140 it's like, oh, one set of people says we want we want to grow the 721 00:42:58,140 --> 00:43:01,620 app. We want to grow listeners, monthly active users, whatever 722 00:43:01,620 --> 00:43:01,980 we got. 723 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,460 They want subscribers, they really want people's credit 724 00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:06,930 card. They want subscribers. Yeah. 725 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,140 Yeah. And the other side of it is the ad. The ad sales 726 00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:13,470 department. It's like guys are killing us. We could be we could 727 00:43:13,470 --> 00:43:15,660 be getting right. This many more. 728 00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:19,410 Struggle right there. There's your struggle. Absolutely. 729 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,110 Do you think that sounds like something that could that's 730 00:43:22,110 --> 00:43:24,120 going on? Yeah, 731 00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:28,260 I definitely do. I think that the bigger part of it is that 732 00:43:28,260 --> 00:43:30,810 it's like Spotify is focused on what they're building. And they 733 00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:33,540 want to be that content hub and that aggregator and like, we're 734 00:43:33,540 --> 00:43:38,160 not. I mean, you couldn't, there was no, I mean, I guess, 735 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,010 broadcast television, like you could set up a satellite and 736 00:43:41,010 --> 00:43:44,520 just ingested in however you wanted. But like podcasting and 737 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,370 the RSS feed is so cool and unique. And everything that 738 00:43:47,370 --> 00:43:50,010 we're building off of it, all these aggregator tools have the 739 00:43:50,010 --> 00:43:53,490 ability to say, well, it's my audience and kind of silo it 740 00:43:53,490 --> 00:43:56,310 off, and they're trying to do that they're trying to be I hate 741 00:43:56,310 --> 00:44:00,150 the cliche, like the Netflix of audio and, and all that. It's 742 00:44:00,150 --> 00:44:02,580 just ugly. It's gross, right? I'm, I'm shocked. You don't have 743 00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:06,990 a sound bit for that out. But, but that's I mean, that's the 744 00:44:06,990 --> 00:44:09,840 truth of it. Right? That's, that's how you sell that to an 745 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,650 investor or that's how you sell it as a as a technology pieces 746 00:44:13,650 --> 00:44:15,990 that you're going to create that silo the next Facebook, the next 747 00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:19,620 Twitter, the next whatever. And and podcasting is a cool bit of 748 00:44:19,620 --> 00:44:21,720 content. It also doesn't hurt that every time someone's 749 00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,500 listening to something that's not music, Spotify benefits from 750 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,590 it, but I agree with you on the ad sales team. I mean, that's 751 00:44:28,590 --> 00:44:31,020 like, that's a really hard thing, right, the distribution 752 00:44:31,020 --> 00:44:35,070 of the ads, but also, supposedly, you can charge more, 753 00:44:35,070 --> 00:44:37,980 right? If you can say, I know this user, I know this listener 754 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,190 as an app through first party data where I have their name, 755 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,580 their email address, their you know, all of their actions, 756 00:44:44,580 --> 00:44:47,190 their habits, and I have their consent because to sign up for 757 00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:50,400 my service, they have to give that consent. I can sell that 758 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,620 for $100 CPM and I got a half the impressions or a fifth right 759 00:44:55,650 --> 00:44:59,250 but if it's open and wide, I can't I might struggle to sell 760 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:03,030 it for Due to our CPM because now I'm talking about I don't 761 00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:06,570 know, all that first party data. Now I have to say, Well, you 762 00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:09,720 know, it is the, you know, the Obama podcasts. And that's like 763 00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,000 really important. And so I should be able to sell it for 764 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,250 whatever. But I don't have the listener data that I 765 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,020 think that that's flawed logic anyway, because that show was 766 00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:19,560 terrible. 767 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,720 But it's a ripoff of Moe facts, let's be honest. We're poor, 768 00:45:24,750 --> 00:45:28,080 poorly done by the salespeople, right, these 769 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,150 salespeople are not equipped with the right knowledge to go. 770 00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:33,300 Well, this is this is the next topic. And I think it plays into 771 00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:38,520 something we just learned in this past week. And so it's 772 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,940 really what the the polite word I've learned is attribution. 773 00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:46,590 It's really tracking, tracking of listeners. So listeners who 774 00:45:46,590 --> 00:45:51,630 are disregarded in the entire conversation up until now. And 775 00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:55,290 one of the things we discovered is, is a lot of a lot of things 776 00:45:55,290 --> 00:45:58,920 are wrong with even simple attribution that is used in 777 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,850 compiling statistics about the industry, such as the user 778 00:46:02,850 --> 00:46:06,810 agents, and I don't know if you follow that, Brian, but maybe 779 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,050 Dave, you could explain what was discovered. And and the 780 00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:15,300 significance of it and how that pertains to. I think it's 781 00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:19,350 important, what apps are getting traffic, you know, for 782 00:46:19,350 --> 00:46:23,220 advertising and just knowing the industry? What exactly because I 783 00:46:23,220 --> 00:46:25,350 think I understand it, did we discover? 784 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,860 Well, the I don't think it's anything that we discovered that 785 00:46:28,860 --> 00:46:32,520 what Well, I guess we discovered a couple of things that the 786 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,720 problem has been for a while, that area, and it really came to 787 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,980 the forefront when buzzsprout decided to remove the apple core 788 00:46:40,980 --> 00:46:44,670 media user agent from his stats page. And when they when they 789 00:46:44,670 --> 00:46:49,710 did that it dropped apples, the apple podcast app share a market 790 00:46:49,710 --> 00:46:55,560 share of Listen, you know, plays down from like, sikinos, 60%, 791 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,570 plus, down to below Spotify. So they're each neck and neck at 792 00:47:00,570 --> 00:47:04,590 roughly, I think it's like 28%. So that tells you immediately 793 00:47:04,620 --> 00:47:11,010 that you have roughly 30% of the of the listens, the depth of the 794 00:47:11,010 --> 00:47:14,490 GET requests that are that are coming through in the user agent 795 00:47:14,490 --> 00:47:18,930 as apple core media, which is a UI specific user agent string 796 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,710 that so we knew sort of everybody knew that was 797 00:47:22,710 --> 00:47:27,060 happening, but then nobody knew. Okay, which apps are reporting 798 00:47:27,060 --> 00:47:31,050 themselves incorrectly as apple core media. So John's Birla go 799 00:47:31,050 --> 00:47:31,320 ahead 800 00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:34,290 of me and show me and James actually wrote about this like, 801 00:47:34,290 --> 00:47:37,470 right in the first couple of months. And the the main idea 802 00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:40,860 that we push is that when the RSS request comes in, pass 803 00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:44,940 something back that identifies that requests uniquely. So that 804 00:47:44,940 --> 00:47:47,670 you look at the RSS user agents so that when the episode comes 805 00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:49,740 in, you can differentiate all the apple core media. 806 00:47:51,150 --> 00:47:54,420 So john Spurlock did something brilliant on the mastodon 807 00:47:54,420 --> 00:47:58,560 server, and he created essentially, a, it's a fake RSS 808 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,370 feed. This serves one single fake show all the time, this 809 00:48:02,370 --> 00:48:08,610 dynamic and in you. So if you request the RSS feed, it just 810 00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:12,300 gives you back a new MD every excellent Well, it doesn't even 811 00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:16,320 serve the mp3 then it gives you back a new an XML feed with the 812 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,400 user agent string as the description in the feed. Listen 813 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,970 to the episode. When you listen to the episode, it dynamically 814 00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:28,410 generates an audio file every time with the user agent string 815 00:48:28,590 --> 00:48:33,120 that requested it as the audio. And so you can look in here 816 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,690 verbally. And I've got two examples. So first, the first 817 00:48:36,690 --> 00:48:41,460 one clip is called reflections. podcast index, 818 00:48:42,540 --> 00:48:47,910 podcast index.org at 1642 GMT 819 00:48:48,029 --> 00:48:53,339 podcast index.org is the user agent string that we request 820 00:48:53,369 --> 00:48:57,239 that that that came from. So then the next one is reflections 821 00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:58,139 apple core media, 822 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:05,010 apple core media, at 1649 GMT from IP address. 823 00:49:05,759 --> 00:49:13,349 So what we did was was, I tried to SDI into as many different 824 00:49:13,379 --> 00:49:17,399 podcast apps as I could, and then just test it. And in 825 00:49:17,399 --> 00:49:21,119 predictively, every time you've downloaded an episode, you got 826 00:49:21,299 --> 00:49:25,709 the correct user agent string. So like if it's down, if you 827 00:49:25,709 --> 00:49:29,369 stream it, if you stream it, it comes through as apple core 828 00:49:29,369 --> 00:49:30,569 media ship. 829 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,710 I haven't downloaded a podcast in years, I'm always streaming. 830 00:49:35,489 --> 00:49:38,249 And I think a lot of people are so like pocket cast is a perfect 831 00:49:38,249 --> 00:49:41,849 example. Pocket cast when you stream it reports itself as 832 00:49:41,849 --> 00:49:45,419 apple core media. And so they're just leaving, they're leaving 833 00:49:45,449 --> 00:49:50,279 market share stats on on on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. James 834 00:49:50,310 --> 00:49:54,180 James talked about. He had a Twitter thread where I guess the 835 00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:57,150 developer identified that you actually can change that user 836 00:49:57,150 --> 00:50:00,090 agent from apple core media, you can add things to it. So I'm 837 00:50:00,090 --> 00:50:03,480 excited to see if people do that. But getting the app 838 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,560 developers to, like take that stance and and do more in unify 839 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,800 is, I think, the roadblock that we're hitting. And I want to I 840 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,830 want to loop this back to what you were saying with tracking 841 00:50:13,830 --> 00:50:16,020 and attribution, you can definitely call it tracking. I 842 00:50:16,020 --> 00:50:18,840 mean, that's what it is. attribution is the one marketing 843 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,990 word for it. But at the end of the day, I mean, like, first 844 00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:25,110 off, it's just IP, right? So that IP is matching to a 845 00:50:25,110 --> 00:50:28,320 database that has data that you've consented to share. Do I 846 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,160 wish was 847 00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:34,500 that's already not true? Okay, you hit my IP at home, you have 848 00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:37,530 data that I did not intend to share, but I know what shows up. 849 00:50:38,010 --> 00:50:41,250 I know what shows up, it shows right down to the address, it's 850 00:50:41,250 --> 00:50:43,020 very close. So 851 00:50:43,050 --> 00:50:46,650 now show for geo targeting. So with geo targeting with IP 852 00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:54,120 address, it's a 10 kilometer variance for for Wi Fi. And so 853 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,480 like for me, I'm like a kilometer away from my physical 854 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,080 location. If I'm on cellular, though, I, when I was in Austin, 855 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,920 it was showing me and either San Antonio or Houston. Right. So I 856 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:05,520 guess I guess 857 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,670 what I'm saying is, forget geo targeting. Sure. There's 858 00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:11,190 databases, you hit my IP address, it comes back with my 859 00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:13,950 name. Yeah, that's out there. And I'm sure 860 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,359 that the collection of data I'm not comfortable with how all of 861 00:51:18,359 --> 00:51:21,359 these databases have been created, and I'm excited for 862 00:51:21,359 --> 00:51:25,019 this whole look at identity that's going to reassess what is 863 00:51:25,019 --> 00:51:28,169 allowed to be stored and created and how and how it's going to be 864 00:51:28,169 --> 00:51:29,759 allowed to be tied together. 865 00:51:29,820 --> 00:51:32,400 What is this? What is this identity? identity talk you 866 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:32,970 speak of? 867 00:51:33,150 --> 00:51:36,780 Yes. So they're moving away from the mobile device IDs and the 868 00:51:36,780 --> 00:51:39,090 cookies. And the intent there is that everything is going to be 869 00:51:39,090 --> 00:51:42,060 first party collected data. So you log into a website, 870 00:51:42,060 --> 00:51:44,640 and they just don't understand who's driving this. 871 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:51,600 A Nielsen loaded me live ramp. And why are they doing this? 872 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,020 Because the mobile device ID and cookies was a goldmine. They had 873 00:51:55,020 --> 00:51:57,570 so much information. So now they have to move at a way that 874 00:51:57,570 --> 00:52:01,500 allows your your specific site and my specific site to collect 875 00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:04,860 collect first party data, but then join it together in one 876 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,400 central place that doesn't allow you to see my data me to see 877 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,610 your data, or advertisers should just pull and get a request of 878 00:52:11,610 --> 00:52:12,150 ID Oh, 879 00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:15,000 so we just we just trust the industry on this one. Cool. 880 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,440 I will laugh nervously with you on that one. 881 00:52:19,949 --> 00:52:23,909 This sounds like this sounds like flop. This sounds like the 882 00:52:23,909 --> 00:52:24,389 whole thing. 883 00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:26,460 Talk, there you go. 884 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,190 But the biggest thing about about attribution on these 885 00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:31,890 things, right, like so, you know, a lot of these companies 886 00:52:31,890 --> 00:52:34,560 and podcasts and you have a big global presence, and they do 887 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,890 honor GDPR. And it's actually from my understanding, a 888 00:52:37,890 --> 00:52:42,000 nightmare to honor GDPR only in those territories, and not 889 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,720 worldwide, so most of them will adhere to it. But But here's the 890 00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:49,470 problem. A podcast host doesn't have a way to interact with a 891 00:52:49,470 --> 00:52:53,940 pod. Like a listener. The podcast apps, depending on their 892 00:52:53,940 --> 00:52:57,030 size, have to adhere to GDPR and ccpa, and all the other 893 00:52:57,270 --> 00:53:00,510 regulations. And I don't know why they're not. So when I log 894 00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:03,780 into Spotify, or pocket casts or overcast, I don't care what the 895 00:53:03,780 --> 00:53:07,620 app is, I am a listener of that app, that app should be asking 896 00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:11,220 me for my consent or give me the option to opt out depending on 897 00:53:11,220 --> 00:53:13,470 how narrow they want to get. Did they want to just let me do it 898 00:53:13,470 --> 00:53:15,990 only in California and ignore me in Texas because there's no 899 00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:20,310 regulation. Cool, do they want to do GDPR style regulation 900 00:53:20,310 --> 00:53:23,970 everywhere, awesome. But because I as a listener have no way to 901 00:53:23,970 --> 00:53:27,600 interact with the app, which is my only listening portal to 902 00:53:27,810 --> 00:53:32,880 determine my consent framework. And that app has no structure to 903 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,820 pass that consent down the line. Now, you still have to pass the 904 00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:38,880 IP address in useragent. There's absolutely structural things 905 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,760 that need it. But if there was a consent flag passed with that by 906 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,060 these apps, these major hosting platforms and publishers would 907 00:53:45,060 --> 00:53:48,030 honor it, right? There's no reason why they wouldn't because 908 00:53:48,030 --> 00:53:53,520 it is if I can say I own an app, my users opted out. And here's 909 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,220 their information and opted out, I have an audit log, I have 910 00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:58,890 something that they can absolutely confirm that they 911 00:53:58,890 --> 00:54:01,470 received, I have something that they can prove what they can and 912 00:54:01,470 --> 00:54:03,780 can't do with it. Because with the opt out, you can do less 913 00:54:03,780 --> 00:54:06,420 with it. There are still ways to do attribution. With opting out, 914 00:54:06,420 --> 00:54:10,320 you can do direct IP to IP match with no data augment, it still 915 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,810 shows the efficacy of advertising, buddy. 916 00:54:13,980 --> 00:54:17,730 You're saying? What you're saying is that you don't think 917 00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:21,390 there's a way to just kind of jump in a few steps ahead. And 918 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,160 you don't think there's a way to fix that anywhere other than the 919 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,750 product? And by that I mean the privacy invasion aspect of all 920 00:54:30,750 --> 00:54:33,810 this stuff. You think really where the rubber meets the road 921 00:54:33,810 --> 00:54:38,550 is that the app is I think yeah indicates with the podcast. 922 00:54:38,550 --> 00:54:39,300 Whoa, wow, this 923 00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:41,970 is this is very This is very good, because that's where my 924 00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:44,640 solution goes as well, which I'm going to still hold back on. 925 00:54:45,210 --> 00:54:47,520 While I think me and you should partner with it unless you 926 00:54:47,550 --> 00:54:52,590 completely disagree with my idea. Now, the thing, the thing 927 00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:56,520 here is that like these apps, get all this content and I 928 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,950 understand it's a chicken in the egg right who made what 929 00:54:58,950 --> 00:55:02,730 podcasting successful The app or the content, and but the problem 930 00:55:02,730 --> 00:55:05,760 is, is that everyone tries to beat up on these attribution 931 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,890 companies, pod sites and Chartwell and whatnot or the 932 00:55:07,890 --> 00:55:11,220 hosting platforms, right? The thing is, is that they're the 933 00:55:11,220 --> 00:55:13,860 little guy, right? These publishers are trying to squeak 934 00:55:13,860 --> 00:55:17,190 by and get as much as possible, if a publisher could get direct 935 00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:19,440 information about their listeners that their listeners 936 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,260 opted into if a publisher could communicate through their 937 00:55:22,260 --> 00:55:25,830 hosting platform in one central location, directly to all of 938 00:55:25,830 --> 00:55:28,800 their listeners across all apps, because there was some sort of 939 00:55:28,830 --> 00:55:32,220 app required framework like you're doing with the RSS feed. 940 00:55:32,490 --> 00:55:34,890 But getting more buy in, it would be amazing, because we 941 00:55:34,890 --> 00:55:37,950 keep talking about, oh, well, when I log into an app, I want 942 00:55:37,950 --> 00:55:40,470 to opt out of these three podcast tracking me but I'll let 943 00:55:40,470 --> 00:55:43,110 these four know don't split hairs. And forget the fact that 944 00:55:43,110 --> 00:55:46,500 every time you don't opt out of Spotify, or Apple or Google or 945 00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:49,830 whoever, they get all your info, and they're just determining 946 00:55:49,830 --> 00:55:54,210 what you don't pass down the line. So all of those apps are 947 00:55:54,210 --> 00:55:57,270 incentivized and motivated to get as much data from you as 948 00:55:57,270 --> 00:56:00,630 possible. So the opt out should happen in the app, because the 949 00:56:00,630 --> 00:56:04,170 app is the directing for, like control with you. And the the 950 00:56:04,170 --> 00:56:07,680 app should be responsible for passing that consent flag to the 951 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:08,880 rest of the stream. So 952 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,820 is that what you're proposing, that's I would love to do that I 953 00:56:11,820 --> 00:56:15,240 talked to Marco with over at overcast and he said, by 954 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:17,790 default, he's gonna like you, if he did this, he would opt 955 00:56:17,850 --> 00:56:21,540 everyone out, because he will not never let anybody opt into 956 00:56:21,540 --> 00:56:25,110 the app. And I'll tell you that the the attribution partners are 957 00:56:25,110 --> 00:56:27,540 cool with it, they'd honor it, a lot of the hosts will honor it, 958 00:56:27,570 --> 00:56:31,440 a lot of the major publishers are dying for this type of legal 959 00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:34,710 coverage, because you got to remember, if I want to opt out 960 00:56:34,740 --> 00:56:39,120 of an NPR podcast, right now, I have to, I have to opt out of 961 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,840 the app itself. And PR directly, I have to know their hosting 962 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,270 provider and opt out of it, I have to know their prefix 963 00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:48,210 tracking partner and opt out of it, I have to somehow magically 964 00:56:48,210 --> 00:56:50,580 know their server side attribution partner and opt out 965 00:56:50,580 --> 00:56:54,390 of it. And then if there's data collection with the host, or 966 00:56:54,420 --> 00:56:56,820 like, if they use like Nielsen targeting, I have to do that, 967 00:56:56,820 --> 00:56:59,850 too. That's seven different places, each one of them have 968 00:56:59,850 --> 00:57:02,610 their own way to honor opting out, some will accept that I'm 969 00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:06,960 in Texas, and they'll cover me under GDPR ccpa. Others might 970 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,320 say you're not in a protected territory. And so I as a 971 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,870 listener have to do that. And worst of all, I have to do it on 972 00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:16,170 the home IP address. Because cellular and business IP I 973 00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:19,590 know I mean, it's it's stomach churning. And just hearing you 974 00:57:19,590 --> 00:57:22,740 talk about stuff that it is possible. I'm being I'm sitting 975 00:57:22,740 --> 00:57:25,620 here going What the fuck this is exactly what I hate. 976 00:57:26,790 --> 00:57:32,640 But so if there's a Is there any part that the feed itself can 977 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:36,810 play in this? Because I don't know that? You know, what you're 978 00:57:36,810 --> 00:57:39,000 saying is like a do not track style header 979 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,040 for which everybody hates? 980 00:57:43,260 --> 00:57:48,480 Gentlemen, it's much deeper than that. In 57 minutes, we have not 981 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,400 that the listener, the listener, is completely ignored and abused 982 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,550 in this entire process. We're abusing the listeners 983 00:57:56,580 --> 00:58:01,350 information, we're abusing their everything, and then we're gonna 984 00:58:01,350 --> 00:58:06,480 throw ads at them. I don't know it. To me, it seems like this is 985 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,440 a very short sighted way of going about making money and 986 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,520 good product. It just goes against everything. Because what 987 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,450 I haven't heard is the promise we used to get at least it was a 988 00:58:18,510 --> 00:58:22,080 cool promise, you'll get an ad for exactly what you're 989 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,860 interested in. That was the prop. That was the promise. That 990 00:58:25,860 --> 00:58:30,960 was awesome. And no, I disagree. You want to hear my idea goes 991 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:39,060 here. So what we've done with podcasting 2.0 is we have taken 992 00:58:39,060 --> 00:58:45,720 out several middlemen silently, the deadly one is we've we've 993 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,010 taken out forces that can be bad. So we've taken out the 994 00:58:50,010 --> 00:58:55,890 centralized corporate controlled index, known as Apple, we have 995 00:58:55,890 --> 00:58:59,760 at least a sneakernet distributed version of that, 996 00:58:59,790 --> 00:59:04,380 which is you know, by no way robust, but at least the 997 00:59:04,380 --> 00:59:06,990 information cannot just necessarily die. And we're 998 00:59:06,990 --> 00:59:10,620 working on decentralizing and making the the core index more 999 00:59:10,620 --> 00:59:14,370 robust. With value for value streaming payments, we've 1000 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,170 eliminated all middlemen in all payment structures, except for 1001 00:59:19,170 --> 00:59:23,010 the onboarding, which is still a process of getting your money 1002 00:59:23,010 --> 00:59:28,110 fiat money into an appropriate cryptocurrency. We've also 1003 00:59:28,110 --> 00:59:33,210 eliminated a royalty organizations Performing Rights 1004 00:59:33,210 --> 00:59:39,960 Organization. So we do direct royalty split payments from a at 1005 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,280 the moment of, of consumption or sending a value from the person 1006 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,460 who's receiving whatever value they're getting from an mp3 1007 00:59:47,490 --> 00:59:52,470 typically, that's huge. So we need to remove some middlemen 1008 00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:57,600 from this process to end. Let's fulfill the one promise because 1009 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,830 the again, the promise was There are two promises made early on 1010 01:00:01,830 --> 01:00:05,010 about the internet. One is your refrigerator will no one to 1011 01:00:05,010 --> 01:00:09,450 order the milk. And I'm completely convinced that the 1012 01:00:09,450 --> 01:00:12,870 refrigerator can do that today. But we've we've forgotten that 1013 01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:16,320 promise. We've done all kinds of other stupid shit to build to 1014 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,890 track people. And we never fulfill the one promise, you'll 1015 01:00:19,890 --> 01:00:24,810 get the ads you're interested in. So that that we failed, and 1016 01:00:24,810 --> 01:00:28,320 I've been a part of the marketing ad. Now, let's just 1017 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:32,640 put serendipity aside, because you of course, is always a pro. 1018 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,530 I didn't know I wanted that product. Of course, that 1019 01:00:34,530 --> 01:00:37,620 happens. But maybe this is not the appropriate forum. I'll go 1020 01:00:37,620 --> 01:00:42,330 back to brides magazine, Vogue magazine, fishing magazine, Hot 1021 01:00:42,330 --> 01:00:46,410 Rod magazine, Bitcoin magazine. When I listen to Tales from the 1022 01:00:46,410 --> 01:00:51,030 Crypt, Marty bent, I'm streaming value to him. I'm streaming 1023 01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:55,350 satoshis, I'm boosting him. I do however, listen to his ads, 1024 01:00:55,350 --> 01:00:58,500 because he's got Bitcoin services companies that I'm 1025 01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,710 interested in their product, and I'll see it then I go, okay. 1026 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,520 Now, I may not want to listen to the same ad three times, you 1027 01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,500 know, by may want to skip through and maybe if the ads 1028 01:01:07,500 --> 01:01:10,050 different, I'll listen for a different offering. But I know 1029 01:01:10,050 --> 01:01:12,300 that it's going to be Bitcoin related, because that's who 1030 01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:16,260 advertises on Tales from the Crypt? So how about this? Why 1031 01:01:16,260 --> 01:01:19,950 don't we change the whole thing? I love your idea of the apps 1032 01:01:19,950 --> 01:01:25,590 because I think that is exactly where this needs to be managed 1033 01:01:25,590 --> 01:01:30,660 from. And the app developers, and that's one of our two 1034 01:01:30,660 --> 01:01:34,470 mission statements is they've always gotten screwed. They've 1035 01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:38,280 been left out of all deal flow. And all of it, you know, podcast 1036 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,040 at Joe Rogan's money now app, the apps didn't get any of that 1037 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,640 money, none of it. And yet all the apps pass it on through 1038 01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,610 quite happily Now, did they benefit maybe by featuring him? 1039 01:01:47,610 --> 01:01:51,720 Sure. All kinds of stuff can be done. Some would run ads if they 1040 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,140 have a popular app, but they're really not in the deal flow. So 1041 01:01:55,140 --> 01:01:59,580 what if we say, we have a podcast, I'll just take Tales 1042 01:01:59,580 --> 01:02:07,080 from the Crypt as an example. And I have a Bitcoin widget 1043 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:13,320 company and I'm advertising. And I want to spend $50. CPM. So 1044 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,500 I'll pay $50 for every 1000 people who have listened to my 1045 01:02:16,500 --> 01:02:19,470 podcast. Now, the first thing I have in the traditional 1046 01:02:19,470 --> 01:02:23,940 scenario, is all the numbers, all the data, everything that 1047 01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:27,420 people have to tell me that my money is working, or the old 1048 01:02:27,420 --> 01:02:30,330 joke, half of my marketing money is working. I just don't know 1049 01:02:30,330 --> 01:02:31,200 which which half 1050 01:02:32,610 --> 01:02:35,700 is bullshit. Because the elephant in the room, the two 1051 01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:40,620 elephants really is, is this just something that downloaded 1052 01:02:40,650 --> 01:02:43,950 and it's sitting there, and I know that there's all kinds of 1053 01:02:43,950 --> 01:02:48,000 algorithms and IAB standards, and we've dusted that over a 1054 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,300 little bit. So we have so well, at least we all agree that this 1055 01:02:51,330 --> 01:02:55,650 stinks, is poor, but we all agree on the poop. But then the 1056 01:02:55,650 --> 01:02:59,730 shape, but then the skipping of ads, this is the elephant and no 1057 01:02:59,730 --> 01:03:03,510 one wants to talk about skipping of ads. That's what Spotify went 1058 01:03:03,510 --> 01:03:07,110 after, you can't skip the ads on Spotify. That's their streaming 1059 01:03:07,110 --> 01:03:12,720 insertion. That's the whole USP that they have. So what if you 1060 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,230 go to you're going to do a media buy, I'm going to go to five 1061 01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:19,440 apps. And the reasons for that should be apparent to me as a 1062 01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,770 marketer, or maybe as a representative of someone who 1063 01:03:22,770 --> 01:03:27,150 wants to market a product. And I'll say, okay, pod friend, I 1064 01:03:27,150 --> 01:03:32,250 want to pay a $50. CPM. Let's just start with $50. I want to 1065 01:03:32,250 --> 01:03:36,840 be on this podcast. And that's Marty's podcast. And Marty says, 1066 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,310 Yeah, sure, that's good. What happens is, the minute that ad 1067 01:03:41,310 --> 01:03:48,360 hits, my streaming, satoshis stops, it reverses. And the ad 1068 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:53,280 by that the Bitcoin widget company made with pod friend now 1069 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:58,050 starts to pay from their wallet, which sits at pod friend starts 1070 01:03:58,050 --> 01:04:02,490 to pay the podcaster, Marty, but also it's going to pay me for 1071 01:04:02,490 --> 01:04:05,610 sitting through the ad, which I can then recycle and put into 1072 01:04:05,610 --> 01:04:09,840 other podcasts. And it's going to pay the app. So now I'm being 1073 01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,320 paid for my attention, which is their investment in me you're 1074 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,740 literally investing in convincing me with money to to 1075 01:04:16,740 --> 01:04:19,890 listen, it's like a pitch for a bad timeshare. 1076 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:26,190 You're, you're a boat, and I have a feeling. And if I skip 1077 01:04:26,190 --> 01:04:29,490 it, then Marty doesn't get paid app doesn't get paid. I don't 1078 01:04:29,490 --> 01:04:32,670 get paid. Okay, but let's talk and talk to that for a second. 1079 01:04:32,670 --> 01:04:34,920 So there's got to be a line that we draw on this. I like your 1080 01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,190 idea, but I everything I'm doing with sounds profitable is 1081 01:04:38,190 --> 01:04:41,070 talking to and it's such a shitty word for it. But like the 1082 01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:44,160 industry of podcasting, you got a paycheck and you got a 401k. 1083 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,950 Right. The other side of it is you're trying to generate that 1084 01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:50,460 paycheck. On that side. If I'm a smaller publisher, and I'm 1085 01:04:50,460 --> 01:04:53,460 trying to generate revenue, I want it in every way I possibly 1086 01:04:53,460 --> 01:04:57,330 can go about it. But pod friend is not big enough for these big 1087 01:04:57,330 --> 01:04:59,970 publishers to log into yet another system 1088 01:04:59,999 --> 01:05:00,959 On a second, you want a 1089 01:05:01,469 --> 01:05:02,939 $50 CPM. 1090 01:05:03,420 --> 01:05:07,710 But I don't, but I don't want what happens if in. So let's say 1091 01:05:07,710 --> 01:05:10,710 that I, there was an example I heard there was a podcaster that 1092 01:05:10,710 --> 01:05:14,070 had a Fiji water Add dynamic insertion, they put it live, 1093 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,860 they got Twitter bombed by their followers about how terrible 1094 01:05:16,860 --> 01:05:19,860 Fiji water was, they removed it immediately, I was talking to 1095 01:05:19,860 --> 01:05:22,710 this other company that their entire idea was to make clips of 1096 01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:25,500 podcasts, they opened up with their like we checked with their 1097 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:27,570 lawyers, we have the legal right to do that. And then what we're 1098 01:05:27,570 --> 01:05:29,370 gonna do is we're going to take that clip and then sell 1099 01:05:29,370 --> 01:05:33,300 advertising to it and that we're gonna have that super bad idea i 1100 01:05:33,330 --> 01:05:34,890 there was the media first thing I said, I'm like, 1101 01:05:34,890 --> 01:05:37,860 congratulations, you're legally able to do that podcasters are 1102 01:05:37,860 --> 01:05:41,970 gonna light you on fire. Right and but so they're like people 1103 01:05:41,970 --> 01:05:45,330 can log in the podcast or can log in and claim that and I said 1104 01:05:45,330 --> 01:05:47,610 show let me get this straight I'm the podcasts are removed 1105 01:05:47,610 --> 01:05:50,550 Fiji water Fiji water comes to you, it matches the targeting of 1106 01:05:50,550 --> 01:05:53,550 that clip, and you just run Fiji water against my content without 1107 01:05:53,550 --> 01:05:55,680 my permission. So I'm here, 1108 01:05:55,860 --> 01:05:58,020 I think you're missing. You're missing my point, though. And 1109 01:05:58,020 --> 01:06:00,150 before we do, cuz I understand where you're going just wanted 1110 01:06:00,150 --> 01:06:04,410 before you go all the way down the path. This This only works 1111 01:06:04,770 --> 01:06:09,030 if pod friend does active ad sales, because as you pointed 1112 01:06:09,030 --> 01:06:14,070 out, and pod friend or Piper catcher or Mayo, pod station, or 1113 01:06:14,070 --> 01:06:17,640 breeze or whatever, they have all the information, they should 1114 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,430 be the ones cutting the deals. I'm just see, 1115 01:06:20,550 --> 01:06:23,640 as you view it the other way, get them all to unify so that I 1116 01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:25,200 as the publisher can get all that. 1117 01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,020 Of course, that's that's the next step, of course, 1118 01:06:28,050 --> 01:06:30,330 because if that's all unified, I'll just give them a check. 1119 01:06:32,130 --> 01:06:32,880 aspects, think 1120 01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,420 about the Think about what can be done with an app itself. 1121 01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:40,860 These two these app developers have so much experience they can 1122 01:06:40,860 --> 01:06:44,280 add, if they understood that they can receive money for it. 1123 01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,270 Look, yeah, I don't care if if my app is promoting one, one 1124 01:06:48,270 --> 01:06:51,480 podcast over the other, that actually might be enjoyable. I 1125 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,630 want my podcasters to recommend and maybe we have a whole 1126 01:06:55,260 --> 01:06:58,710 namespace tag for this. All of these things aren't come through 1127 01:06:58,710 --> 01:07:01,950 the app and the app developers have been beaten into submission 1128 01:07:01,950 --> 01:07:05,790 from day one, to shut up and just listen to what Apple does. 1129 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,180 And look at all the stuff that they can be doing. 1130 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,870 I think I think the only flaw is they have to unify and come 1131 01:07:12,870 --> 01:07:15,600 together like they have the IAB for the hosts and the 1132 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,690 publishers. And I think there's some good and unification there. 1133 01:07:18,690 --> 01:07:22,260 And there's plenty of flaws with it. But the app developers, if 1134 01:07:22,260 --> 01:07:24,390 they all came together and said, this is the stuff that we're 1135 01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:27,150 going to accept, we all accepted, you can pass through 1136 01:07:27,150 --> 01:07:30,480 polls down to the audience, you can pass through ads. And you 1137 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,430 can know we'll let you know listener, why 1138 01:07:32,430 --> 01:07:35,130 does it why did why does it have to be? Why does it have to be 1139 01:07:35,130 --> 01:07:36,360 unified, I don't understand 1140 01:07:37,050 --> 01:07:40,650 that if I if I log into my hosting platform, and I set up 1141 01:07:40,650 --> 01:07:43,950 the ad in my hosting platform, knowing that that ad a specific 1142 01:07:43,950 --> 01:07:47,460 type of ad can react nor a regular RSS feeds. And let's 1143 01:07:47,460 --> 01:07:50,670 call this like the RSS 2.0 aspect, right? That you're 1144 01:07:50,670 --> 01:07:55,470 working on if or the podcasting 2.0. If it lands on a podcast 1145 01:07:55,470 --> 01:07:58,410 app that honors that and it gets more data, they get a cut of it. 1146 01:07:58,530 --> 01:08:00,270 But in one central location, 1147 01:08:00,540 --> 01:08:03,180 we have a fundamental, fundamental difference in 1148 01:08:03,180 --> 01:08:08,400 approach. Okay, I this is brides magazine, I have beautiful 1149 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:09,960 brides gowns, 1150 01:08:10,230 --> 01:08:13,710 I want to talk to Marty, I want to talk about how the message is 1151 01:08:13,710 --> 01:08:16,920 be conveyed. I want to make sure that his audience this is this 1152 01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,820 is not a Oh, let me log in and buy some ads. That's the problem 1153 01:08:20,820 --> 01:08:23,610 with advertising. We're not thinking anymore. When I'm 1154 01:08:23,970 --> 01:08:26,820 talking about buying the ads I'm talking about. I'm the 1155 01:08:26,820 --> 01:08:30,270 publisher. And I want to sell My Brides magazine, it feels like 1156 01:08:30,270 --> 01:08:33,600 how you're talking about it is advertising on the newsstand. 1157 01:08:33,870 --> 01:08:37,230 And I'm talking about advertising, a unique version of 1158 01:08:37,230 --> 01:08:40,350 My Brides magazine to specific newsstands that bought into my 1159 01:08:40,350 --> 01:08:42,930 type of marketing and I pay them extra for it. And then the 1160 01:08:42,930 --> 01:08:46,410 regular brides magazine that goes to everybody else so that I 1161 01:08:46,590 --> 01:08:50,010 as sounds profitable selling ads on my inventory. I say to an 1162 01:08:50,010 --> 01:08:52,830 advertiser, I say 50% of my inventory runs on with these 1163 01:08:52,830 --> 01:08:55,470 cool features that I can show you listener data just like 1164 01:08:55,470 --> 01:08:59,580 Spotify. And it's $5 more CPM because I pay that guy, but I'm 1165 01:08:59,580 --> 01:09:00,480 just saying back to 1166 01:09:00,480 --> 01:09:03,300 hopes the whole point the whole point of mice and then I'll shut 1167 01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:08,880 up about it. That my audience, my audience as brides magazine 1168 01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:13,230 podcast, you know what the fuck my audience is? You sell brides 1169 01:09:13,260 --> 01:09:16,350 dresses, you know that this is where you don't need to know 1170 01:09:16,350 --> 01:09:19,740 their IP address. You don't need to know their spending habits. 1171 01:09:19,740 --> 01:09:23,430 You don't need to know anything whatsoever. Except I'm brides 1172 01:09:23,430 --> 01:09:27,510 magazine. I'm hot rod magazine. I'm fishing magazine, whatever 1173 01:09:27,510 --> 01:09:31,410 it is that I just don't believe in any other type of advertising 1174 01:09:31,410 --> 01:09:35,010 for podcasts. It's right. It's got to be related and look at 1175 01:09:35,010 --> 01:09:38,100 where the money's being made. newsletters. You're doing it 1176 01:09:38,100 --> 01:09:46,980 with advertisers, you don't have BMW tied? Oh, yeah. So that but 1177 01:09:46,980 --> 01:09:49,560 that's a much more personal sale. And I think that if we 1178 01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:54,420 focused on that, because it is making content again, people, 1179 01:09:54,780 --> 01:09:57,960 but that's a scale issue. I agree with you on that one. And 1180 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,780 this is a great example. I think that like the the luxury of a 1181 01:10:00,780 --> 01:10:04,560 bigger podcast can do sponsorship. I am a huge 1182 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,530 advocate for contextual advertising over this 1183 01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:09,420 identification, your IP address. 1184 01:10:09,420 --> 01:10:10,320 But wait, 1185 01:10:10,980 --> 01:10:15,930 wait, wait, wait. But wait, boy, if I know that 1000 people 1186 01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,670 listen to my ad on the brides magazine podcast is going to be 1187 01:10:20,670 --> 01:10:24,780 much easier for me to measure. And even with a with a chapter 1188 01:10:24,780 --> 01:10:27,810 URL, click through, it's gonna be much easier for me to measure 1189 01:10:27,810 --> 01:10:33,900 the effectiveness of that than anything else. You understand 1190 01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:36,360 what I'm saying? Because people are going to be, they're going 1191 01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:40,410 to be buying a quality product, a big product. I mean, it's just 1192 01:10:40,410 --> 01:10:41,940 not good for everything. 1193 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,820 I promise you, we see this the same way. It's just where the ad 1194 01:10:44,820 --> 01:10:47,460 is place. And I don't believe that it should be automated by 1195 01:10:47,460 --> 01:10:49,860 the buyer, just buying in mass all the time through these 1196 01:10:49,860 --> 01:10:52,200 pieces of technology, there needs to be that relationship 1197 01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,470 that you want. Bride magazine, I just mean that like there's a 1198 01:10:55,470 --> 01:10:58,530 level of publisher that can't spend time logging into every 1199 01:10:58,530 --> 01:11:01,890 unique podcast app and setting up this is my blockless I just 1200 01:11:01,890 --> 01:11:04,440 don't like tobacco ads. I don't like. 1201 01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:07,590 Okay, all right, well, 1202 01:11:08,220 --> 01:11:09,960 you got to protect their brand. And 1203 01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,340 the ad can only come with their consensus. 1204 01:11:15,540 --> 01:11:18,660 I think the brand protection thing, this is a problem that I 1205 01:11:18,660 --> 01:11:19,890 have with what the current like 1206 01:11:19,890 --> 01:11:22,110 get over yours. If you have to take ads, get the fuck over 1207 01:11:22,110 --> 01:11:24,540 yourself with your brand protection business, please. 1208 01:11:25,290 --> 01:11:28,230 And I've got a perfect example of this. I'm listening to some. 1209 01:11:29,220 --> 01:11:33,090 Okay, I guess my basic premises there's that modern advertising, 1210 01:11:33,090 --> 01:11:37,740 there's this group of, sort of, you know, I guess, just the 1211 01:11:37,740 --> 01:11:41,760 modern advertising mindset has shifted to where brand safety is 1212 01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,600 the number one thing and that it forgets the fact that people 1213 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:50,790 like danger. They like things that are scary. And like it. So 1214 01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:56,160 play, I got a perfect example of this. It's play the clip art 1215 01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:57,210 build trigger warning. 1216 01:11:58,740 --> 01:12:02,580 This is where we'll take questions about anything in the 1217 01:12:02,580 --> 01:12:05,880 world of the occult. This is going to be something again, I 1218 01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:09,510 serve up the warning that if you are frightened by this kind of 1219 01:12:09,510 --> 01:12:11,670 material or unduly disturbed 1220 01:12:11,700 --> 01:12:14,160 by it, turn your radio off. 1221 01:12:14,430 --> 01:12:15,330 Or in other words, don't 1222 01:12:15,450 --> 01:12:17,940 listen. Now 1223 01:12:19,980 --> 01:12:24,660 that that's like when you give the warning. It keeps people 1224 01:12:24,660 --> 01:12:26,610 listening fake. Yeah, it's a fake warning. 1225 01:12:27,540 --> 01:12:33,840 But what what I heard Brian say is the podcasters want to 1226 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,660 protect their brand because they don't want shitty ads. My point 1227 01:12:36,660 --> 01:12:43,080 is their category is weddings. So here's my category pod friend 1228 01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:46,290 hyper catcher. Sell to me what you got weddings, wedding 1229 01:12:46,290 --> 01:12:49,770 dresses, wedding venues, wedding DJs, all this stuff. Bring it on 1230 01:12:49,770 --> 01:12:50,460 in. That's good. 1231 01:12:50,670 --> 01:12:53,520 Yeah, but the thing with that, though, is that you have if you 1232 01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,810 have a podcast that's like, Okay, look, don't listen, like 1233 01:12:57,810 --> 01:13:02,160 if, if you're a slave to video podcast, don't be like, I'm 1234 01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,100 gonna warn you. There's gonna be some skimpy wedding dresses 1235 01:13:05,100 --> 01:13:08,370 coming up. You need to turn this off. If that's you know if 1236 01:13:08,370 --> 01:13:09,300 that's against your 1237 01:13:09,330 --> 01:13:11,820 right. But I heard Brian St. Didn't say the brands were 1238 01:13:11,820 --> 01:13:15,030 afraid. But I heard Brian says that the publishers, the podcast 1239 01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:17,940 creators don't want shit ad. That's what I heard him say. But 1240 01:13:17,940 --> 01:13:20,190 you could have a specific reason why you don't want to work with 1241 01:13:20,190 --> 01:13:22,830 a specific advertiser. I mean, like you, you could have 1242 01:13:22,830 --> 01:13:25,290 competitive separation, you've already sold them directly. And 1243 01:13:25,290 --> 01:13:27,270 you don't want them to have a way to get your 1244 01:13:27,330 --> 01:13:29,700 that's why it's not. That's why it's not programmatic. That's 1245 01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:32,880 why you can't buy without having a real connection, and a 1246 01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:36,990 valuable one. We've gone too far, we've gone too far with all 1247 01:13:36,990 --> 01:13:38,010 this technology. 1248 01:13:38,250 --> 01:13:41,010 Now, if you're seeing the app has to like as they sell the 1249 01:13:41,010 --> 01:13:42,990 inventory, they reach out to you and say do you want to purchase? 1250 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,690 That's great, but I would just love a unified framework for 1251 01:13:45,690 --> 01:13:48,660 that. I'd love the ability for me to also sell into their 1252 01:13:48,660 --> 01:13:51,150 technology and pay them for that added technology that they've 1253 01:13:51,150 --> 01:13:53,220 all unified around. Well, 1254 01:13:53,550 --> 01:13:55,770 it's never gonna happen. All I know, 1255 01:13:55,890 --> 01:13:59,490 is. And that's why I keep focusing on the fact that right 1256 01:13:59,490 --> 01:14:01,830 now, you're right, that the listeners are being abused. But 1257 01:14:01,830 --> 01:14:05,400 the truth is, it starts with the apps, they have to pass consent 1258 01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,380 over to everybody else to honor and they have to hold them 1259 01:14:07,380 --> 01:14:08,820 accountable for it. Right. 1260 01:14:08,850 --> 01:14:11,820 That's that sounds kind of, you know, I think you're right, I 1261 01:14:11,820 --> 01:14:14,760 think you're 100%. Right. But it's also kind of, it's funny, 1262 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:18,000 there's this, there's this shared lie that goes on within 1263 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,750 the industry that, oh, we want more accurate stats. But no, 1264 01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:22,290 you know, we 1265 01:14:22,290 --> 01:14:26,940 really don't want more accurate. Yeah, and, and I hear the other 1266 01:14:26,940 --> 01:14:29,670 the other side of that is what I hear you saying, Brian, is that 1267 01:14:30,750 --> 01:14:33,900 there's also this shared lie of look, we don't want your data 1268 01:14:33,900 --> 01:14:37,290 because GDPR and it's really complicated and all that kind of 1269 01:14:37,290 --> 01:14:40,650 stuff. But we're not actually going to stop trying to get your 1270 01:14:40,650 --> 01:14:43,320 data unless you give us a header. Imagine 1271 01:14:44,370 --> 01:14:48,720 that. Yeah, but imagine that TechCrunch article talks like in 1272 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,450 the top 10 apps, five of them are not the big names there. 1273 01:14:51,450 --> 01:14:54,270 They all get together and they say, Hey, we're gonna pass opt 1274 01:14:54,270 --> 01:14:57,720 out. So if a listener logs into the app, it says, Do you want to 1275 01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,720 opt in or out of this data and that app on Is it for its 1276 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,780 entirety and passes it downstream to everything it 1277 01:15:03,780 --> 01:15:07,440 does. And then the apps say, Okay, what hosts are going to 1278 01:15:07,440 --> 01:15:10,860 honor this? If no hosts or publishers honor, imagine the 1279 01:15:10,860 --> 01:15:13,740 TechCrunch article on that. Imagine the press release on 1280 01:15:13,770 --> 01:15:17,880 apps, protect privacy, and downstream. Okay. So that's why 1281 01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:18,150 all these 1282 01:15:18,150 --> 01:15:21,090 people, the only, the only difference we have here of 1283 01:15:21,090 --> 01:15:28,590 opinion, is that the think, the approval process, which 1284 01:15:28,590 --> 01:15:32,610 whichever way it goes, for the listener for the advertiser for 1285 01:15:32,610 --> 01:15:36,960 the podcast, or for the app, it shouldn't be about whether 1286 01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:41,130 you're tracking somebody. So I'm saying no tracking, zero 1287 01:15:41,130 --> 01:15:44,550 tracking, turn it all off. No one needs to know shit, other 1288 01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:50,940 than here's guaranteed proof by a cryptographic hash agreement, 1289 01:15:51,150 --> 01:15:55,110 that this person is interested at this very moment in this kind 1290 01:15:55,110 --> 01:15:59,550 of ad, bring it, that's all you need. And otherwise, you're just 1291 01:15:59,550 --> 01:16:02,010 wasting it pissing people off. I mean, that's the other half of 1292 01:16:02,010 --> 01:16:02,610 your money. 1293 01:16:03,990 --> 01:16:06,840 I'd take that anyway, if on the on the request came through, it 1294 01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,600 said this app is verified that this person likes these things. 1295 01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,150 And that's why you get to know about them. A hosting platform 1296 01:16:12,150 --> 01:16:14,790 would target that. But what I'm saying is to be unified. 1297 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,910 Okay, it's easier to make a unified for everybody to say, 1298 01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:21,330 but we'll do ads in this specific way, when the person 1299 01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:27,630 agrees by a cryptographic agreement, saying yes. And that 1300 01:16:27,630 --> 01:16:30,390 typically is because I will accept a one Satoshi payment for 1301 01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:34,110 from you. Right. So you have a transaction there that I'm 1302 01:16:34,110 --> 01:16:39,180 agreeing to this being put in my face. That's all you need to 1303 01:16:39,180 --> 01:16:39,600 know. 1304 01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:42,840 Yeah, the blockchain is the buzzword of the of the century, 1305 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,500 it seems like ad tech ad, ag tech and dude can jump on that 1306 01:16:46,500 --> 01:16:47,100 bandwagon. And 1307 01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:48,510 I don't disagree. And I think 1308 01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:52,830 fundamentally, the the industry does, I think fundamentally the 1309 01:16:52,830 --> 01:16:57,060 industry is addicted to data is addicted to knowing is addicted 1310 01:16:57,060 --> 01:17:00,600 to charts has huge infrastructure of analysts who 1311 01:17:00,630 --> 01:17:02,130 are addicted to data, they don't use 1312 01:17:02,130 --> 01:17:04,620 it, nyan, they abuse it, they've collapsed. 1313 01:17:04,860 --> 01:17:07,530 They resell it, they abuse it and do all kinds of crap with 1314 01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:10,860 it. And it lays around everywhere. Yeah. So yes, you 1315 01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:14,880 can get 100% everybody will agree to a system that says no 1316 01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,880 tracking whatsoever. Here's how we handle an agreement that 1317 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,210 someone wants to listen to something. Here's how the 1318 01:17:21,210 --> 01:17:24,180 podcast here it can be done in one transaction. It's very 1319 01:17:24,180 --> 01:17:26,100 simple. There's a consensus. 1320 01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:30,120 That's right need help from you, guys, we need the apps to buy 1321 01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:32,610 into this, we need them to unify and agree on how they're going 1322 01:17:32,610 --> 01:17:35,250 to tell everybody upstream one, my guess 1323 01:17:35,250 --> 01:17:37,980 I can guarantee you I can get everybody to not track, 1324 01:17:39,150 --> 01:17:43,350 you got to give them that as the app, that entire app has to say 1325 01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:46,170 I will not collect your data, I will hold it to these standards, 1326 01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:47,760 I will not do anything, we'd be 1327 01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:52,380 happy to do that if they have a way to help the advertising. And 1328 01:17:52,380 --> 01:17:57,960 my and my idea, while not it's not sexy, like spewing ads all 1329 01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,560 over the place, I think they'll make more money. And I would 1330 01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,340 tend I personally, I want this feature I want I want to learn 1331 01:18:05,340 --> 01:18:09,510 stuff about stuff that's really deliver on that promise. That's 1332 01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:10,110 what we promise, 1333 01:18:10,140 --> 01:18:13,350 I promise. I want targeted ads that actually sell me things I 1334 01:18:13,350 --> 01:18:14,700 want all the time, all the time. 1335 01:18:15,420 --> 01:18:16,770 But you know, that's not gonna happen. 1336 01:18:17,010 --> 01:18:18,270 No, correct. But, 1337 01:18:18,449 --> 01:18:22,979 but this is why I say let's just forget that. Because it's not 1338 01:18:22,979 --> 01:18:27,089 possible. It's a pipe dream. Let's just agree that what 1339 01:18:27,089 --> 01:18:31,919 whatever the content of that podcast is, I'm going to get ads 1340 01:18:31,919 --> 01:18:34,889 that the host has selected for me. And there's going to be a 1341 01:18:34,889 --> 01:18:38,969 way for me to skip through it without feeling guilty, or to be 1342 01:18:38,969 --> 01:18:43,349 compensated for my attention for the pitch, bring the listener 1343 01:18:43,349 --> 01:18:46,439 in, bring him in for once 100%. 1344 01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:49,080 It just needs to be a framework that everybody can adopt, and it 1345 01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,530 can be sold from app up. And from host down. Okay, 1346 01:18:52,619 --> 01:18:54,329 Dave, what are you doing Tuesday? 1347 01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:59,190 I mean, you guys are the right guys to make this happen. Like 1348 01:18:59,190 --> 01:19:01,890 I'm talking to the advertisers and technology partners in the 1349 01:19:01,890 --> 01:19:05,940 agencies, everybody wants more accountability. Everybody wants 1350 01:19:05,940 --> 01:19:09,150 more information that can actually work and drive these 1351 01:19:09,150 --> 01:19:12,120 results. They don't want useless data, right? They don't want to 1352 01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:16,200 guess at the 2000 segments that my house identifies with. And 1353 01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,300 some of them might be my wife. Some of them might have been my 1354 01:19:18,300 --> 01:19:21,030 mom who came to visit and haven't expired yet. And they 1355 01:19:21,030 --> 01:19:24,300 serve me an ad based on those like that doesn't help anybody. 1356 01:19:24,300 --> 01:19:28,260 So more data is fine paying people for that data in the 1357 01:19:28,260 --> 01:19:31,860 chain. compensating the app for providing that is fine. The 1358 01:19:31,860 --> 01:19:35,250 problem is, it's got to be at scale, because the higher up you 1359 01:19:35,250 --> 01:19:39,360 get these advertisers, I was talking to someone at Westwood 1360 01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,430 One and they mentioned that a big agency was just like, I 1361 01:19:41,430 --> 01:19:43,800 don't care about targeting my audiences, people who brush 1362 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,550 their teeth. So it's everybody in the world, hopefully, 1363 01:19:47,580 --> 01:19:50,940 right? Well, the fast moving consumer goods sector is always 1364 01:19:50,970 --> 01:19:52,440 good. That's how they work. That's 1365 01:19:52,440 --> 01:19:55,200 that's exactly that much inventory that we need to pare 1366 01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,140 it down with targeting contextual works. Great general 1367 01:19:58,170 --> 01:20:01,920 interest works great shows that will You know, like, there's 1368 01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,650 room for advertising everywhere. We need to bring more 1369 01:20:04,650 --> 01:20:07,980 advertisers in here. We absolutely do. Like that's how 1370 01:20:07,980 --> 01:20:10,860 we're going to grow. But I'm with you. Like, I want to see 1371 01:20:10,860 --> 01:20:14,250 you guys. And I want to help you guys organize these app 1372 01:20:14,250 --> 01:20:17,850 developers, because the second is agreed upon framework that 1373 01:20:17,850 --> 01:20:20,970 they'll all implement, then the hosts will implemented because 1374 01:20:20,970 --> 01:20:25,020 the publishers want it. NPR had rad a listening spec. The 1375 01:20:25,020 --> 01:20:28,320 problem was the abstinent implemented. So the host and an 1376 01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:31,170 implemented NPR didn't even have a chance to their app. 1377 01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:36,210 No, no, I understand. Because believe me, this is this is what 1378 01:20:36,210 --> 01:20:40,890 the 10 year non movement has been in podcasting is for 1379 01:20:40,890 --> 01:20:46,530 exactly that chicken in the egg problem. Yeah, so this is not 1380 01:20:46,530 --> 01:20:49,500 going to get so what we the reason why we're successful, you 1381 01:20:49,500 --> 01:20:53,010 can't organize developers. It's like, here's a bunch of cats. 1382 01:20:53,070 --> 01:20:58,230 Okay, now go herd? No, that's not gonna work. itself, it's 1383 01:20:58,230 --> 01:21:02,610 self organizing organisms, they, all we did is we said, Hey, 1384 01:21:02,670 --> 01:21:06,750 here's, here's what we here's our skin in the game. And let's 1385 01:21:06,780 --> 01:21:13,080 develop something together. That works. So for any additional 1386 01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:16,530 feature, what we're doing right here is is the best I can do. 1387 01:21:16,860 --> 01:21:23,730 And but I think that the goals still aren't aligned. It's very 1388 01:21:23,730 --> 01:21:28,290 easy. For app developers to agree and have consensus on 1389 01:21:28,290 --> 01:21:30,450 something I've seen it, we've seen it multiple times. It 1390 01:21:30,450 --> 01:21:34,170 happens in big things, little things. And it's enthusiasm, and 1391 01:21:34,170 --> 01:21:38,400 it's an usually benefit to humankind. So we 1392 01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:40,680 can't tell you what I can tell you what developers want. 1393 01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:48,210 Developers are motivated by, by want. Ultimately, one thing and 1394 01:21:48,210 --> 01:21:51,990 I mean, when I say developers, I mean developers that are in it, 1395 01:21:51,990 --> 01:21:56,130 for the love of the technology and the experience of developing 1396 01:21:56,130 --> 01:21:59,310 a product, not as somebody who's just working as a pro programmer 1397 01:21:59,310 --> 01:22:07,740 on the staff somewhere, people, people like Marco, like, Xavier, 1398 01:22:07,740 --> 01:22:13,350 from podcast addict. Like Martin, and Mitch, and Jason, 1399 01:22:13,380 --> 01:22:17,490 and all these guys, they're what motivates those guys, more than 1400 01:22:17,490 --> 01:22:22,470 anything, as a developer is creating something really cool 1401 01:22:23,340 --> 01:22:27,390 in having people have an enjoyable experience and talk 1402 01:22:27,390 --> 01:22:31,260 about the What a great experience it was using their 1403 01:22:31,260 --> 01:22:36,570 thing. So a perfect example of that is john Spurlock. He spent 1404 01:22:36,570 --> 01:22:42,390 his time developing this way to detect the user agent header 1405 01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:47,910 from apps that you don't control. And the motivation for 1406 01:22:47,910 --> 01:22:52,830 him was doing something really unique and cool. And the joy 1407 01:22:52,830 --> 01:22:56,190 that people got from experiencing the thing that he 1408 01:22:56,190 --> 01:23:01,950 built. And so it anytime you if you want to get developers to 1409 01:23:01,950 --> 01:23:08,580 all join in and on a common cause, the way you do it, is by 1410 01:23:08,910 --> 01:23:14,490 letting them letting them have that experience by joining in, 1411 01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:18,480 in developing something that makes other people happy. And 1412 01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:22,110 talk in in generates talk about the thing they did you can you 1413 01:23:22,110 --> 01:23:26,910 can say it's, it's not really like, selfishness or narcissism. 1414 01:23:27,060 --> 01:23:31,980 It's more just, they want a room the reward of the experience of 1415 01:23:31,980 --> 01:23:34,020 seats white, both white people write songs 1416 01:23:34,020 --> 01:23:34,560 stiff. 1417 01:23:35,220 --> 01:23:39,750 Yes, exactly. Yes. Perfect, perfect example. And if you can 1418 01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:42,690 do that, it doesn't matter if it's ad tech or anything else, 1419 01:23:42,690 --> 01:23:45,630 you will get people on board. The the what doesn't get them on 1420 01:23:45,630 --> 01:23:49,830 board with does not enjoy a good developers excited is saying, 1421 01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:56,940 here's a spec. But it's, it's 14 pages long. And and it's not 1422 01:23:56,940 --> 01:24:00,090 really, if you implement it, nobody's really ever gonna know, 1423 01:24:00,300 --> 01:24:02,310 you're just gonna have maybe a press release Sunday. 1424 01:24:02,730 --> 01:24:06,120 Okay, so let's, let's flip it around, right? Spotify is 1425 01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,340 implementing some really neat publisher features, you'll be 1426 01:24:08,340 --> 01:24:11,280 able to send polls, you'll be able to do subscriptions, we 1427 01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,610 can't argue that these are cool features being rolled out slowly 1428 01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:18,990 in a walled garden. So it would be super badass if all those 1429 01:24:18,990 --> 01:24:22,050 publisher all those podcasts apps, all the developers got 1430 01:24:22,050 --> 01:24:25,380 together, replicated all of those features and created as a 1431 01:24:25,380 --> 01:24:29,370 unified frame framework. So any host could participate and use 1432 01:24:29,370 --> 01:24:31,140 those Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold 1433 01:24:31,140 --> 01:24:34,560 on a second. The way I see it, we're driving features. We're 1434 01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:37,950 driving shit. The other guys are just now catching up to. I mean, 1435 01:24:37,950 --> 01:24:41,190 we've got so many features note. I mean, they need to implement 1436 01:24:41,220 --> 01:24:44,490 our stuff. We're not going to replicate anything that 1437 01:24:44,490 --> 01:24:46,920 Deathstar does test 1438 01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:48,780 you're not doing polls or anything like that. 1439 01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:53,430 Now we're about to champion Oh, yeah. Wait, wait until we put 1440 01:24:53,430 --> 01:24:56,010 the activity pub together. Oh, yeah, polls are gonna be 1441 01:24:56,370 --> 01:24:59,310 there'll be I mean, go look at mastodon right now. They got 1442 01:24:59,310 --> 01:25:00,960 polls. We'll have all All of that stuff. 1443 01:25:01,140 --> 01:25:04,380 And that's so cool. And as a as a publisher on a hosting 1444 01:25:04,380 --> 01:25:08,010 platform, if I could log into washko, which is what I use, and 1445 01:25:08,010 --> 01:25:10,920 be able to set a poll that would send through my RSS feed, 1446 01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,580 knowing that I have to pay the podcast apps to polled the 1447 01:25:14,580 --> 01:25:17,700 listeners that we combined have access to a dude in a second. 1448 01:25:17,820 --> 01:25:18,450 That's cool. 1449 01:25:18,480 --> 01:25:21,450 Yeah. But that's, that's the thing. What we need is we need 1450 01:25:21,450 --> 01:25:24,060 to understand all the apps and get them all together. And then 1451 01:25:24,060 --> 01:25:24,900 I'll No, no, 1452 01:25:24,900 --> 01:25:27,900 no, no, no, no, no, listen, please, Brian, listen, you don't 1453 01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:30,870 get all the apps together. It's just not how it works. Because 1454 01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:35,010 we have exactly the same issue that you're looking at. We have 1455 01:25:35,010 --> 01:25:39,960 some, some hosts who have just more skin in the game for 1456 01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,810 themselves, ultimately, which is how it should be, who have 1457 01:25:42,810 --> 01:25:46,920 implemented many more of the namespace tags than others. We 1458 01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,440 have some who said, Well, fuck it, you can, like Lipson, you 1459 01:25:49,440 --> 01:25:52,350 can just throw whatever you want in there, and it'll work. We're 1460 01:25:52,350 --> 01:25:56,400 not really doing a UI for it. And the argument that why 1461 01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:01,620 they're not doing it is well, to two Part one is there's no apple 1462 01:26:01,620 --> 01:26:05,190 and Spotify aren't going to use it. So why bother. And the other 1463 01:26:05,190 --> 01:26:07,920 one is not enough people are requesting it. So it's a true 1464 01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:11,460 chicken in the egg. We've done very good moving that needle. 1465 01:26:11,460 --> 01:26:14,580 And I think that this unavoidable, um, that the 1466 01:26:14,580 --> 01:26:17,820 hosting companies are implementing what we're doing. 1467 01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:24,600 And now what Spotify is doing. And I, so I'm with you on 1468 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:28,290 everything. But fuck Spotify, there. Oh, 1469 01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:31,560 yeah, we're removing them. Apple and Spotify aren't going to play 1470 01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:32,880 ball on this. So get everybody else. 1471 01:26:32,910 --> 01:26:36,270 Because I mean, all we have is apps. You know, we have we have 1472 01:26:36,270 --> 01:26:40,140 a lot more apps. And I think we have some apps that are a lot 1473 01:26:40,140 --> 01:26:44,370 more successful than people know. By No, because I whatever 1474 01:26:44,370 --> 01:26:46,950 all these numbers confuse me even more as to what apps are 1475 01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:51,150 really being used. And, and I think that the experience we 1476 01:26:51,150 --> 01:26:55,800 bring today is already better. And every single time Spotify 1477 01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:59,070 kick somebody off is another group of people who are looking 1478 01:26:59,070 --> 01:27:03,570 for an alternative. And you're probably I don't know, if you're 1479 01:27:03,570 --> 01:27:08,340 an older millennial, but I see that, you know, 25 to 35 year 1480 01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:11,490 olds, decentralizing and moving away from stuff, they're sick of 1481 01:27:11,490 --> 01:27:14,040 it. But that doesn't mean that there's not a place for 1482 01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:17,100 marketing and advertising, where appropriate that we that we can 1483 01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:21,300 absolutely deliver on but it has to be the mission has to be 1484 01:27:21,300 --> 01:27:25,560 stated before the let's get everybody together and do it. To 1485 01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:28,830 what what is the mission? If the mission is okay, we're not we're 1486 01:27:28,830 --> 01:27:31,740 just going to make everyone not track people have people opt out 1487 01:27:31,740 --> 01:27:34,710 so that we can really track the shit out of people who want to 1488 01:27:34,710 --> 01:27:39,780 be tracked this no one gets any joy from that. But if we can say 1489 01:27:39,780 --> 01:27:44,340 we absolutely will, we'll get people exposed to products and 1490 01:27:44,340 --> 01:27:47,520 things they really do want, because they're saying they want 1491 01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:52,020 it. And it's because of this relatable, or contextual 1492 01:27:52,050 --> 01:27:55,230 advertising as you call it. Maybe that's the only thing 1493 01:27:55,230 --> 01:27:58,860 that's appropriate. We're not we're not for for toothpaste. 1494 01:27:59,489 --> 01:28:02,909 That's the billboard is up. And this is the hard part here 1495 01:28:02,909 --> 01:28:06,209 because it's about scale. Because if I'm a major podcast, 1496 01:28:06,419 --> 01:28:09,899 I can just transcribe, and then contextually target ads against 1497 01:28:09,929 --> 01:28:13,469 keywords and then that text, their ads was you can do that 1498 01:28:13,469 --> 01:28:16,439 with that. And that can be directly like host read ads 1499 01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:18,959 targeted that way. It can be programmatic, it can be whatever 1500 01:28:18,959 --> 01:28:21,869 you want. And that's the scale I want. I want to see more 1501 01:28:21,869 --> 01:28:25,409 involved. I want to be able to say there are millions, but I 1502 01:28:25,409 --> 01:28:28,349 just don't show a specific app that I can target ads to 1503 01:28:28,380 --> 01:28:31,320 Yeah, I just don't believe that, that audiences want that 1504 01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:33,660 anymore. I don't think podcasters want it they do it 1505 01:28:33,660 --> 01:28:37,110 out of necessity. Because they were sold a dream. 1506 01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:40,560 I think as you 1507 01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,980 know, good. Now she'll say I want to switch gears for a 1508 01:28:43,980 --> 01:28:48,060 second because I want I think this is important. And I want to 1509 01:28:48,060 --> 01:28:54,030 get your opinion on this. Brian. Yeah, if it's so let me try to 1510 01:28:54,030 --> 01:28:58,440 figure out how to how to explain this. Part of what something I'm 1511 01:28:58,440 --> 01:29:04,230 concerned about is the sort of centralization of the 1512 01:29:04,230 --> 01:29:07,740 advertising spending that's going on right now in podcasting 1513 01:29:07,980 --> 01:29:12,660 around VC money. Like if you look at Africa, where the chart 1514 01:29:12,660 --> 01:29:15,660 was, and I tried to find it just a minute ago, I couldn't I 1515 01:29:15,660 --> 01:29:19,020 couldn't put my finger on it. But if you look at the top month 1516 01:29:19,020 --> 01:29:23,040 over month, spin spenders, are spending the most amount of 1517 01:29:23,790 --> 01:29:28,110 money on ad sales each month on like host reads and stuff. The 1518 01:29:28,410 --> 01:29:37,500 that list is dominated by things like betterhelp Squarespace, and 1519 01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:44,700 I think that long term, you know, people expect the podcast 1520 01:29:44,700 --> 01:29:48,300 industry advertising market to continue to grow. But what I see 1521 01:29:48,330 --> 01:29:53,790 is a basically a table with one with with one leg that's almost 1522 01:29:53,790 --> 01:29:59,400 broken in half. If you have that VC VC money is not dependable. 1523 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:04,830 evaporate with the slightest amount of economic, you know, 1524 01:30:04,830 --> 01:30:08,610 disruption. So if you had, you know, if betterhelp is 1525 01:30:08,820 --> 01:30:14,400 responsible for 15% of the of the advertising market every 1526 01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:20,010 month? I mean, if that company goes belly up, which many VC 1527 01:30:20,010 --> 01:30:25,410 exit strategy type things do? I mean, that could just be gone? I 1528 01:30:25,410 --> 01:30:29,880 mean, what I guess what I'm saying is, I think there's a lot 1529 01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:36,690 of, there's a lot more danger, in the podcast, ad revenue 1530 01:30:36,690 --> 01:30:41,340 space, then people are even talking about, I wonder what 1531 01:30:41,340 --> 01:30:42,750 your initial thought is on that. 1532 01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:48,540 So those tools are able to tell what podcasts what ads are in a 1533 01:30:48,540 --> 01:30:54,030 podcast, by reading the show notes, or transcribing the 1534 01:30:54,030 --> 01:30:56,790 episode and getting one of the dynamic ads hard part about 1535 01:30:56,790 --> 01:31:00,990 dynamic ad insertion is that they could be rotated, you'd 1536 01:31:00,990 --> 01:31:03,300 have to download it multiple times a day, multiple times a 1537 01:31:03,300 --> 01:31:06,540 week, different countries, states, whatever to get that. So 1538 01:31:06,540 --> 01:31:09,360 it's not really hard to easy to detect, for hosts read, you're 1539 01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,240 getting it to the show notes. But it's only the shows that 1540 01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,760 they choose to monitor and nobody is transcribing or 1541 01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:18,120 grabbing the show notes from everybody. betterhelp is huge. 1542 01:31:18,750 --> 01:31:20,820 They're spending massive amounts, but based off of what 1543 01:31:20,820 --> 01:31:25,890 900,000,015% of that over, like if it was evenly spent over 12 1544 01:31:25,890 --> 01:31:29,460 months, you're on 11 million a month that seems high. That 1545 01:31:29,460 --> 01:31:33,780 seems high that they're the ones spending that much. I think the 1546 01:31:33,780 --> 01:31:36,600 truth is, is that we're not detecting all the advertisers, I 1547 01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:39,030 think there are advertisers that are spread out in different ways 1548 01:31:39,030 --> 01:31:41,430 that we're just not getting that are buying through programmatic 1549 01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,910 that are buying on wider reach instead of hosts read in 1550 01:31:44,910 --> 01:31:48,180 detectable ways. I mean, progressive is a huge proponent 1551 01:31:48,180 --> 01:31:51,510 of podcast advertising. And so I think there's more money in 1552 01:31:51,510 --> 01:31:53,490 there, but the ones that are visible are these performance 1553 01:31:53,490 --> 01:31:57,960 marketing, like you said, VC funded companies that are 1554 01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:00,930 spending heavy getting decent results. But yeah, it is a 1555 01:32:00,930 --> 01:32:04,080 little bit scary. But that's that's why everything I'm 1556 01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:08,640 writing is to help empower the sales people's in agencies to go 1557 01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:11,640 out there and say to these big advertisers, like, Hey, we're 1558 01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,640 closer to radio than we are to digital, we got more data than 1559 01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:17,850 social media influencer marketing, we can accurately you 1560 01:32:17,850 --> 01:32:20,370 know, drive conversions for you and effectively drive them 1561 01:32:20,370 --> 01:32:24,510 because these are engaged, active listeners tuned into this 1562 01:32:24,510 --> 01:32:29,580 and like the hosts. And there's more there. And that's the goal 1563 01:32:29,580 --> 01:32:32,670 of sounds proper was to get those people to arm the people 1564 01:32:32,670 --> 01:32:34,890 with their salespeople to get those advertisers in here, the 1565 01:32:34,890 --> 01:32:37,650 bigger ones that are holding up industries a little bit more 1566 01:32:37,650 --> 01:32:38,580 sturdy, I would say, 1567 01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:44,070 well, the other version of that, though, is the same thing. It's 1568 01:32:44,070 --> 01:32:48,300 sort of the same, the same issue. But it's sort of like 1569 01:32:48,630 --> 01:32:53,280 materializing in a different way is if, if I go back in time, and 1570 01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:57,570 I listened to an episode of Let's just say, this week in 1571 01:32:57,570 --> 01:33:04,140 tech from eight years ago, I can probably hear the exact same 1572 01:33:04,140 --> 01:33:08,400 Squarespace ad that I hear from from that same show this week. 1573 01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:13,680 It's like the and and that's a problem because these are 1574 01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:18,990 companies that like it's Squarespace or Casper mattress, 1575 01:33:19,140 --> 01:33:23,520 or Warby Parker, or Baba, Baba, we all know these, these, these 1576 01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:27,960 ads that you hear these same one over and over and over every 1577 01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:32,400 week for years. That doesn't seem exactly like a healthy 1578 01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:35,610 advertising market either. Because I mean, like, you know, 1579 01:33:35,610 --> 01:33:39,060 what we're used to within the larger bigger price media space, 1580 01:33:39,480 --> 01:33:43,830 you know, the the multi billion dollar a year media space from 1581 01:33:43,830 --> 01:33:46,740 like network news and these kinds of things in primetime 1582 01:33:46,740 --> 01:33:53,400 television is, is advertising from companies that rotate and 1583 01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:56,970 they have new products they want to sell their their a it's just 1584 01:33:56,970 --> 01:34:02,250 a larger, more stable, more mature market. I just hear just 1585 01:34:02,250 --> 01:34:05,880 something about the advertising space within within podcasting. 1586 01:34:06,210 --> 01:34:10,950 Makes me think that this is just I don't know, it's it seems very 1587 01:34:10,950 --> 01:34:15,360 immature and very unstable to me, I guess is what I'm pulling 1588 01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:15,540 in. 1589 01:34:15,900 --> 01:34:18,690 And that's a great observation. And I was while you were 1590 01:34:18,690 --> 01:34:21,720 talking, I looked and I see ziprecruiter Geico, which of 1591 01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:24,750 course is huge indeed, Squarespace simply safe quip 1592 01:34:24,750 --> 01:34:28,710 Robin Hood's any optical Madison Reed Casper Skillshare third 1593 01:34:28,710 --> 01:34:33,270 love care of stamps.com progressive. I did not realize 1594 01:34:33,300 --> 01:34:36,300 that since I've been so removed from it, that we are indeed 1595 01:34:36,300 --> 01:34:39,900 still with the same see List advertisers that we started 1596 01:34:39,900 --> 01:34:43,110 with, you know, 15 years ago, because it's really hasn't 1597 01:34:43,110 --> 01:34:50,700 improved that much. It seems that it's never going to work. 1598 01:34:50,940 --> 01:34:54,660 And the reason why don't have the bigger advertisers come in 1599 01:34:54,690 --> 01:34:58,470 is canceled culture and we have an unconscionable system. 1600 01:35:00,210 --> 01:35:05,640 believe that the big a name brands, except for perhaps even 1601 01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:08,730 the fast moving consumer goods, so it would be so simple. You 1602 01:35:08,730 --> 01:35:11,400 know, don't just use one tweet Gillette, I can't believe you're 1603 01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:15,240 advertising on this podcast, boom, done, it's pulled, they 1604 01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,420 don't want to do it. And they're never going to because it's not 1605 01:35:18,420 --> 01:35:21,690 controllable. They can't call Mark Zuckerberg, they can't call 1606 01:35:21,690 --> 01:35:26,670 Tim Cook, they can't call Daniel Eck. That's why it's not going 1607 01:35:26,670 --> 01:35:30,120 to happen, you will always remain with this. Which doesn't 1608 01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,240 mean that you can't turn this into 10 or $100 billion. But you 1609 01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:34,830 have to approach it differently. 1610 01:35:35,340 --> 01:35:37,770 I but I think that that's a hard one, right? Because I you know, 1611 01:35:37,770 --> 01:35:40,500 back in the day, I could have recorded a TV show always ads 1612 01:35:40,500 --> 01:35:43,350 and everything on VHS. I can record radio to cassette tape, 1613 01:35:43,380 --> 01:35:46,470 downloading a podcast, mp3, and me having that copy with the ad 1614 01:35:46,470 --> 01:35:49,920 in it forever, is the same thing. I mean, I agree with you 1615 01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,130 that like there are there's fear from brands on that end. And 1616 01:35:53,130 --> 01:35:56,310 that is why, you know, they're they have trouble with that, 1617 01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:58,860 right? Because your episodes could be exactly what they're 1618 01:35:58,860 --> 01:36:01,740 looking for. And then you could just take a departure, and 1619 01:36:01,770 --> 01:36:05,400 they're associated with previous episodes post radbeacon dynamic 1620 01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:07,530 ad insertion, it doesn't matter. Someone has a copy of that 1621 01:36:07,530 --> 01:36:12,780 episode elsewhere. So that does kind of hold them back. But I 1622 01:36:12,780 --> 01:36:15,960 don't know. I mean, here's the truth of it. I'm not James 1623 01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:19,380 Cridland with like awesome views of the podcast space. I'm not 1624 01:36:20,310 --> 01:36:24,450 Tom Webster, who gets all this in the data. I'm the nerd who 1625 01:36:24,450 --> 01:36:26,910 plays with this tech and says, what happens if we did premium 1626 01:36:26,910 --> 01:36:29,610 feeds and instead of charging for them, we figured out cool 1627 01:36:29,610 --> 01:36:32,250 ways to customize the listener experience so that they got the 1628 01:36:32,250 --> 01:36:35,040 exact level of podcast they wanted out of it. What happens 1629 01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:38,760 if we did ads that were content and did them sequentially 1630 01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:43,170 throughout an episode? Like I, when I first started, I 1631 01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:45,750 read your piece on the membership. 1632 01:36:46,890 --> 01:36:49,380 And it's fun, like that's the cool part of it is is that 1633 01:36:49,380 --> 01:36:52,080 everybody looks at these tools and say they're their serve ads 1634 01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:55,080 and ads are boring, and you pardon me for my ad break, and 1635 01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:57,660 then you're excused from it. No, it's one complete file. So 1636 01:36:58,020 --> 01:37:01,710 everything I wish I had more understanding to be able to 1637 01:37:01,980 --> 01:37:04,500 hypothesize about the space. But the truth is, I'm just trying to 1638 01:37:04,500 --> 01:37:06,720 take these tools and be like, No, no, your creative guy 1639 01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:10,380 doesn't get to tap out here. Like they should 100% be driving 1640 01:37:10,380 --> 01:37:12,720 this and here's a cool way to look at it makes something way 1641 01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,690 cooler. And that's really what I want to drive. I mean, I have 1642 01:37:15,690 --> 01:37:19,170 these lofty ideas for how to get the apps involved and get paid 1643 01:37:19,170 --> 01:37:21,540 and how to do all these other things. And ultimately, like I 1644 01:37:21,540 --> 01:37:24,030 hope they succeed, but it's not where I'm doing the best good. 1645 01:37:24,060 --> 01:37:27,690 The best good is i'm saying is your ads are lazy, do better use 1646 01:37:27,690 --> 01:37:30,420 this technology, there's more you can do and you don't need 1647 01:37:30,420 --> 01:37:32,580 invasive information about people to succeed. 1648 01:37:33,660 --> 01:37:39,000 Could I could I interest you in, in, in writing some articles 1649 01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:45,840 about profitable podcasting just now sounds profitable as a great 1650 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:48,360 brand, because you're not necessarily sounds profitable. 1651 01:37:48,510 --> 01:37:52,560 But you, you feel like you're only exclusive to AD tech. I 1652 01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,360 think advertising and how to use, 1653 01:37:54,390 --> 01:37:57,180 I think that the use of the ad tech is important because when I 1654 01:37:57,180 --> 01:38:00,690 was in that space, the truth of it was like I wasn't educated. 1655 01:38:00,690 --> 01:38:03,330 And when I joined a podcast company, nobody was like sign up 1656 01:38:03,330 --> 01:38:06,270 to pod news, check out these podcasts read this. Or here's 1657 01:38:06,270 --> 01:38:08,820 our insider newsletter. Heck, I've been at companies that 1658 01:38:08,820 --> 01:38:11,280 didn't even teach me the tool, they gave me a login and told me 1659 01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:14,610 good luck. So I'm trying to educate these people who are 1660 01:38:14,610 --> 01:38:17,790 overworked, and are undereducated and their decision 1661 01:38:17,790 --> 01:38:19,680 makers who are lying through their teeth, about their 1662 01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:22,650 knowledge about the space and the sea levels above them before 1663 01:38:22,650 --> 01:38:25,440 just holding on and hoping everything works. And I'm here 1664 01:38:25,440 --> 01:38:28,290 to say like, this is how this technology works, you need to 1665 01:38:28,290 --> 01:38:31,620 stop thinking about it as just ones and zeros. There's a whole 1666 01:38:31,620 --> 01:38:35,340 alphabet of options that you can do with it, show you the grunt 1667 01:38:35,370 --> 01:38:37,740 that's doing this, you the person that needs to become the 1668 01:38:37,740 --> 01:38:39,870 decision maker in three to five years, you have to be better 1669 01:38:39,870 --> 01:38:42,750 than your boss. Now, you have to be better educated. And here's 1670 01:38:42,750 --> 01:38:45,930 some things ask for time to play around with it. So I think that 1671 01:38:45,930 --> 01:38:48,990 I mean, that's the market I was that person, I was in a 1672 01:38:48,990 --> 01:38:51,630 situation where my boss would walk into a meeting that I 1673 01:38:51,630 --> 01:38:55,620 wasn't invited to sign on for a tool that I ultimately would 1674 01:38:55,620 --> 01:38:58,080 have to be the owner from. And I think it's have any input and I 1675 01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:01,350 was like, this sucks. It doesn't do anything. Now I want it 1676 01:39:01,350 --> 01:39:01,770 works. 1677 01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:03,960 That's the heart of tech. Yeah, 1678 01:39:03,990 --> 01:39:08,310 yeah. Here's my goal. My goal is to help those people not be in 1679 01:39:08,310 --> 01:39:11,400 those situations anymore. And hopefully, then those people 1680 01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:13,620 will get better and better and better. And we'll get into a 1681 01:39:13,620 --> 01:39:16,590 situation where we're not recycling the mistakes of 1682 01:39:16,590 --> 01:39:20,070 advertising in the past. We are not saying that, oh, the podcast 1683 01:39:20,070 --> 01:39:23,550 is expertly created by all these amazing content creators and 1684 01:39:23,550 --> 01:39:26,760 editors and producers. And but please ignore our five minutes 1685 01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,410 of we have to make money. It's not our fault. 1686 01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,080 Well, what? Sorry, go ahead, 1687 01:39:31,110 --> 01:39:35,910 Dave. One thing that I think was interesting that came out over 1688 01:39:35,910 --> 01:39:40,530 the last week really, what we're actually talking about it at the 1689 01:39:40,530 --> 01:39:44,520 beginning of the show was that there's this now this 1690 01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:48,150 understanding that only, let's just say some large podcast 1691 01:39:48,150 --> 01:39:51,270 networks, only 50% of their shows in Apple can Apple's 1692 01:39:51,330 --> 01:39:59,370 directory. And if that's true, then and the real scope of the 1693 01:39:59,370 --> 01:40:07,440 podcast landscape is 50% bigger than we think it is. And then 1694 01:40:07,440 --> 01:40:11,400 there's a whole set of untapped territory out there. And that 1695 01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:15,450 really puts the screws to this idea that you can make a show go 1696 01:40:15,450 --> 01:40:19,500 exclusive and be in be more and be more successful than you can 1697 01:40:19,500 --> 01:40:22,830 and it can in the open, open ecosystem, you know, like me, 1698 01:40:22,830 --> 01:40:26,700 because you, you have, there's this, if you know that you're 1699 01:40:26,700 --> 01:40:32,820 missing out on what you thought was, you know, 70% of the 1700 01:40:32,820 --> 01:40:36,930 market, when you go exclusive to Spotify, and now, you know, 1701 01:40:36,930 --> 01:40:41,400 you're missing out on 170% of the market. Well, then, you 1702 01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:45,240 know, that's, that's a huge swing back in favor of 1703 01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,530 exclusivity is, is the joke. And 1704 01:40:49,650 --> 01:40:53,190 I so I think that every publisher should have as much 1705 01:40:53,190 --> 01:40:55,980 control as possible. I'm having such success with my premium 1706 01:40:55,980 --> 01:41:00,420 feeds aspect. I have my it's a podcast about podcasts, ad tech, 1707 01:41:00,450 --> 01:41:03,270 right? Like how, like, I'm not even just a podcast about 1708 01:41:03,270 --> 01:41:06,150 podcasting. Like this is like even further deeper down the 1709 01:41:06,150 --> 01:41:11,790 line. There are there, there are 33,000 people that read my 1710 01:41:11,790 --> 01:41:15,480 newsletter, and 6575 of them sign up for my premium feed. 1711 01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:19,800 Like there's, if you if you release a weekly podcast, and 1712 01:41:19,830 --> 01:41:23,250 you have six ad slots, and it's $50. CPM, I think the maximum 1713 01:41:23,250 --> 01:41:28,140 per listener you could earn is $15.60. Right? For a year, 1714 01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:31,620 right? We need to think creative ways to help people make money, 1715 01:41:31,620 --> 01:41:33,930 we need to think of how to use these tools in different ways 1716 01:41:33,930 --> 01:41:37,320 than they were intended. supercast was like, hey, it's 59 1717 01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:39,570 cents per listener per month for that feed. And I was just like, 1718 01:41:39,570 --> 01:41:41,970 what happens if you were just the landing page of podcasting 1719 01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:45,390 complete, unique RSS feeds. And these people are looking at 1720 01:41:45,390 --> 01:41:48,900 these tech in different ways. And that's the goal, because I 1721 01:41:48,900 --> 01:41:51,180 could bring my podcasts completely exclusive outside of 1722 01:41:51,180 --> 01:41:54,960 Spotify, owned by me in the RSS feed that I allow everybody to 1723 01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:57,810 use, right. So you have to sign up and give me some other 1724 01:41:57,810 --> 01:42:01,710 information. I could just put it in podcast, podcast index. And I 1725 01:42:01,710 --> 01:42:03,960 guarantee you I'd still have the same number of downloads, 1726 01:42:04,170 --> 01:42:07,530 because all my podcast is not a lot of Spotify listeners. And 1727 01:42:07,530 --> 01:42:10,770 that's okay. And I think we need to be comfortable exploring all 1728 01:42:10,770 --> 01:42:13,710 of this and the technology that powers it. And so when I say ad 1729 01:42:13,710 --> 01:42:16,410 tech, I mean, like at its fundamental level, the hosting, 1730 01:42:16,650 --> 01:42:19,830 right? Yeah, your host is ad tech analytics, or ad tech adds 1731 01:42:20,610 --> 01:42:21,210 a component of 1732 01:42:21,210 --> 01:42:25,440 it. I look at Spotify and Apple subscription based podcast 1733 01:42:25,440 --> 01:42:29,970 membership, whatever you want to call it. I see that is like, if 1734 01:42:29,970 --> 01:42:35,400 it materializes within the next year or two, it just feels I 1735 01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:39,840 don't know, it feels so wrong to me, too. Because they're it's 1736 01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:42,150 like a, it's like they're doubling down on the 1737 01:42:42,150 --> 01:42:43,110 exclusivity, 1738 01:42:43,410 --> 01:42:47,070 part of it. Think about this as a publisher to be exclusive or 1739 01:42:47,070 --> 01:42:50,880 to have a subscription on Spotify after host on anchor. So 1740 01:42:50,910 --> 01:42:54,120 does that mean I have to host my podcast in two places my primary 1741 01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,280 hosting platform and anchor specifically for the 1742 01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:58,860 subscription, meaning that Spotify has to do some magic 1743 01:42:58,860 --> 01:43:01,140 where they take my main feed in my subscription feed and make it 1744 01:43:01,140 --> 01:43:04,800 not look like to ugly feeds on their platform? Or is this their 1745 01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:08,610 goal to get me to move over to anchor and host everything on 1746 01:43:08,610 --> 01:43:11,430 there? which feels weird because the type of people who do 1747 01:43:11,430 --> 01:43:13,980 subscriptions primarily are going to be want to be on 1748 01:43:13,980 --> 01:43:17,040 something like megaphone which they own. But you can't do the 1749 01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:19,920 subscriptions on megaphone yet. It's specifically says for 1750 01:43:19,980 --> 01:43:22,650 anchor hosted podcast. So I think we're gonna see a lot of 1751 01:43:22,650 --> 01:43:25,020 roadblocks. And I think the biggest thing that I'm trying to 1752 01:43:25,020 --> 01:43:28,020 encourage everybody to do before then is play around with this. 1753 01:43:28,260 --> 01:43:31,650 Ask your audience would you sign up for premium feed, figure out 1754 01:43:31,650 --> 01:43:34,710 tools like Yapa and community and all and everything you're 1755 01:43:34,710 --> 01:43:38,400 doing to interact with these your audience and get that 1756 01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:41,310 direct relationship and and figure out what works because 1757 01:43:42,210 --> 01:43:44,670 general marketing and advertising will gain new 1758 01:43:44,670 --> 01:43:47,310 listeners. And that's cool, but talking to your audience about 1759 01:43:47,310 --> 01:43:49,410 how you get them excited to be part of it. And you guys do a 1760 01:43:49,410 --> 01:43:52,020 fantastic job. Your growth through word of mouth has to be 1761 01:43:52,020 --> 01:43:55,980 the hugest part of what you do that that's what's cool about 1762 01:43:55,980 --> 01:43:56,610 podcasting. 1763 01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,340 We're not even in the apple index, or we are not we are 1764 01:44:00,180 --> 01:44:00,900 no, no, no, this 1765 01:44:00,900 --> 01:44:02,550 show is not in the I don't believe you are. 1766 01:44:03,329 --> 01:44:06,419 But that How cool is that? I would love to know your stats on 1767 01:44:06,419 --> 01:44:07,259 Apple podcasts. But 1768 01:44:07,740 --> 01:44:11,460 you know, I have no idea not interested. All we look at is do 1769 01:44:11,460 --> 01:44:14,370 we get enough money to pay for the machines? And speaking of 1770 01:44:14,370 --> 01:44:14,880 that, 1771 01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:24,360 day is on here and currently reaching for the cardboard box. 1772 01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:25,530 Yes, this is a 1773 01:44:25,890 --> 01:44:29,820 this is a value value for value proposition This podcast is 1774 01:44:29,820 --> 01:44:32,940 which means whatever you get out of it, we would like you to 1775 01:44:32,940 --> 01:44:36,690 return the favor time, talent or treasure. We got a lot of time 1776 01:44:36,690 --> 01:44:40,680 and talent being spent on on everything podcasting 2.0 and 1777 01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,040 luckily, people are still contributing. Well, you know 1778 01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:47,820 where we're at with the satoshis we're at our about $9 a day 1779 01:44:47,820 --> 01:44:51,720 average, which, by the way, is is not far off from being kind 1780 01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:54,480 of autonomous for the current setup we have right? 1781 01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:56,040 Yeah, that's pretty, I mean, like 1782 01:44:56,070 --> 01:45:01,200 12 $15 a day and then then the servers run. It's like A true 1783 01:45:01,230 --> 01:45:02,700 perpetual motion machine. 1784 01:45:03,089 --> 01:45:04,109 Yeah, yeah. 1785 01:45:05,400 --> 01:45:09,330 Our hosting is add everything up is a little bit less than 400 so 1786 01:45:09,330 --> 01:45:12,330 we're getting close and then I'll sell sustainability 1787 01:45:12,330 --> 01:45:12,630 brother. 1788 01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:17,490 Nice and then we can we can pay by linode through their partner 1789 01:45:17,490 --> 01:45:21,150 and Bitcoin so we keep it all within the ecosystem. I don't 1790 01:45:21,150 --> 01:45:21,480 want to give 1791 01:45:23,340 --> 01:45:25,440 away the Bitcoin Why give that to linode? 1792 01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,740 Let's, let's thank some people who supported us financially. 1793 01:45:29,310 --> 01:45:32,850 Oh crap, Brian, we made you miss your thing, right? 1794 01:45:33,239 --> 01:45:34,499 No, that's fine I cancelled it. 1795 01:45:34,739 --> 01:45:37,769 Oh geez I sorry I completely forgot the time. 1796 01:45:38,610 --> 01:45:41,130 This was a this was a blast and I really hope that we can have a 1797 01:45:41,130 --> 01:45:42,150 chance to talk. Wait, you're not 1798 01:45:42,210 --> 01:45:44,790 we're not letting you go yet. You can say a few more minutes. 1799 01:45:44,970 --> 01:45:46,050 I got it. I get 10 minutes. 1800 01:45:46,230 --> 01:45:47,850 We'll do five. Okay. 1801 01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:56,220 See Kevin Kevin Bay, sent us 100 bucks and says I need to send 1802 01:45:56,220 --> 01:45:59,220 you is that I need to send more treasure. Thank you both for 1803 01:45:59,220 --> 01:46:03,030 responding to me personally for my Sphinx wallet screw up. Dave 1804 01:46:03,030 --> 01:46:06,300 especially does yeoman's work. That's right. Yeah. Hell yeah. 1805 01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:11,730 Doesn't editorialize. He helped me figure things out at 11pm I 1806 01:46:11,730 --> 01:46:14,430 felt so bad when the light bulb went off in my head and to fix a 1807 01:46:14,430 --> 01:46:17,400 non problem. I was like the guy who needs to be told to make 1808 01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:21,450 sure his computer's plugged in. I can't thank you enough. 1809 01:46:21,900 --> 01:46:24,840 Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, that's very kind. Well, there you go. 1810 01:46:25,170 --> 01:46:28,020 Although actually Dave charges 200 but okay. 1811 01:46:28,500 --> 01:46:38,100 Yeah, let's give you a discount. We get Michael wing it. He gave 1812 01:46:38,100 --> 01:46:42,030 us $50 and he says, just wanted to throw some support to the 1813 01:46:42,030 --> 01:46:43,920 project. Bruce city Mike. Thank 1814 01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:48,270 you. Bruce through city Mike. Yeah, Mike. He works with Gene 1815 01:46:48,510 --> 01:46:49,260 sir Jean. 1816 01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:51,270 Oh, okay. Right. Yeah, um, yeah, 1817 01:46:51,300 --> 01:46:54,120 I know. More he supports surgeon he's a big supporter. 1818 01:46:54,600 --> 01:47:00,750 Yeah, I want to personally thank Jean for standing me up and not 1819 01:47:00,750 --> 01:47:03,540 in telling me to come on his podcast and I showed up and 1820 01:47:03,540 --> 01:47:06,600 waited 15 minutes and he never showed us Oh my word. 1821 01:47:07,020 --> 01:47:09,030 We doing donations because I don't want to leave Brian 1822 01:47:09,030 --> 01:47:09,810 hanging I want to 1823 01:47:10,260 --> 01:47:15,420 know we got a couple okay. We got and I'm just kidding Jean. 1824 01:47:15,480 --> 01:47:19,380 just messaged me. Let's see. I don't see a name on this. Oh, 1825 01:47:19,380 --> 01:47:25,740 no. Here it is. Lauren ball. And he gave us $48.40 and no just 1826 01:47:25,740 --> 01:47:26,640 says thanks. 1827 01:47:26,700 --> 01:47:28,530 Thank you. Judith let them 1828 01:47:30,900 --> 01:47:38,520 see $33.33 from Dame Jennifer. always there for us. It is she 1829 01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:42,150 says in the morning y'all. Show bleed over your project 1830 01:47:42,150 --> 01:47:47,520 continues to be hot. If any, if any generous. Okay, if any 1831 01:47:47,520 --> 01:47:51,120 generous with time. Do name Ben wants to help me get my own rest 1832 01:47:51,150 --> 01:47:55,170 raspy Blitz notes set up. It would be so grateful. I am 1833 01:47:55,260 --> 01:48:00,270 Jennifer and Jennifer on nogen. To social care, hugs and kisses 1834 01:48:00,270 --> 01:48:03,630 named Jennifer PS Dave is the originator as the originator of 1835 01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:07,080 talking hot math. Had to send the jingle to Adam behind your 1836 01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,570 back it would have been way less fun if you knew about it. 1837 01:48:13,350 --> 01:48:14,400 When you talk 1838 01:48:19,050 --> 01:48:19,620 to me 1839 01:48:21,090 --> 01:48:23,130 that's it ladies gentlemen. Dame Jennifer 1840 01:48:25,020 --> 01:48:29,310 it's hard to be from the future when you're legend. Thank you 1841 01:48:29,310 --> 01:48:33,600 David for Ray Fleischmanns and is $25 and I do not see a note 1842 01:48:33,810 --> 01:48:35,610 on the right. Thank you 1843 01:48:35,610 --> 01:48:37,470 Ray. And 1844 01:48:37,890 --> 01:48:42,180 flying through the stack here and I do not know how to 1845 01:48:42,180 --> 01:48:46,920 pronounce this name. Oh sir. Oh s s you're in it. The OCR has 1846 01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:49,920 the oom lot above it. two dots as 1847 01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:51,480 I will, sir. Oh, sure. Yeah, 1848 01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:55,980 sure. Johansson. I'm gonna say, Oh, 1849 01:48:55,980 --> 01:48:58,410 it's from a Scandinavian country. Okay. 1850 01:48:59,069 --> 01:49:02,009 Yeah, he gave us $10. And I do not see a note. And that's 1851 01:49:02,460 --> 01:49:04,260 millions of kronor. Thank you. 1852 01:49:05,430 --> 01:49:10,620 literally millions of Chrome. And then a sad puppy. We had 1853 01:49:10,710 --> 01:49:13,140 somebody cancel the subscription. 1854 01:49:13,980 --> 01:49:14,640 Sad puppy. 1855 01:49:15,450 --> 01:49:16,680 I'm gonna have to Nuka server 1856 01:49:16,740 --> 01:49:21,030 sorry. All right, well, one goes down three go up. That's that's 1857 01:49:21,030 --> 01:49:23,700 our group. Good group. Good. You can support us by going to 1858 01:49:23,700 --> 01:49:27,660 podcast index.org. Scroll down to the bottom. And there's a big 1859 01:49:27,660 --> 01:49:30,810 red Donate button, click on that to send your COC bucks through 1860 01:49:30,810 --> 01:49:34,440 Pay Pal or just boost us in any of the podcasting 2.0 compatible 1861 01:49:34,440 --> 01:49:38,220 and certified apps and raise those value sliders up as far as 1862 01:49:38,220 --> 01:49:42,090 you can take them. Brian Barletta, I really appreciate 1863 01:49:42,090 --> 01:49:49,710 you coming on because I am. You're brave and brave, but I 1864 01:49:49,710 --> 01:49:52,530 also really appreciate and Don't sell yourself short. You 1865 01:49:52,560 --> 01:49:55,920 absolutely have vision in this. And just because we don't agree 1866 01:49:55,920 --> 01:49:59,340 on some fundamentals doesn't mean that your brain power isn't 1867 01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:03,900 Appreciate it. And I think useful because you're on to a 1868 01:50:03,900 --> 01:50:07,470 lot of things. And you see you have a big overview. And I'd 1869 01:50:07,470 --> 01:50:12,090 love to be able to work with you to figure out how we can make. 1870 01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,030 And I think it's actually beneficial that the advertisers 1871 01:50:15,030 --> 01:50:17,970 that are still in podcasting, or I'm just gonna say, kind of low 1872 01:50:17,970 --> 01:50:21,840 rent, we're, we're missing part of that conversation with them. 1873 01:50:22,590 --> 01:50:26,220 Or with the potentials, you know, the the the marketers that 1874 01:50:26,220 --> 01:50:28,650 I don't see them showing up anywhere saying, here's what we 1875 01:50:28,650 --> 01:50:33,390 want. So I'd love to see that. And let's keep the lines of 1876 01:50:33,390 --> 01:50:36,540 communication open. Because there's somewhere between where 1877 01:50:36,540 --> 01:50:39,540 you are and where we're where I am. I think there's there's 1878 01:50:39,540 --> 01:50:42,600 middle ground. And let's see if the app developers have any 1879 01:50:42,600 --> 01:50:45,180 takeaway from this. No, I know, they listen. I 1880 01:50:45,180 --> 01:50:46,560 agree. I know that. Listen, 1881 01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:50,160 that's I'm right there with you. At a minimum, I think that we 1882 01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:53,310 agree on like 80% of it. And what we both want to do is drive 1883 01:50:53,310 --> 01:50:56,070 all three of us want to do is drive this industry forward to 1884 01:50:56,070 --> 01:51:00,420 help everybody. Right. So I I'm so excited that you guys had me 1885 01:51:00,420 --> 01:51:04,530 on here. I definitely prepared myself for a little anti 1886 01:51:04,530 --> 01:51:06,810 advertising talk. And I think we talked more about good stuff. 1887 01:51:07,530 --> 01:51:10,050 But let's collaborate as much as possible. I'm available to you 1888 01:51:10,050 --> 01:51:12,300 guys. I'm available to any of your listeners if they want to 1889 01:51:12,300 --> 01:51:16,290 talk about this stuff. And yeah, I think this is really great. 1890 01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:17,880 Do you have a podcast? Brian? 1891 01:51:18,210 --> 01:51:21,540 I do. Yeah, that sounds profitable podcasts. And so we 1892 01:51:21,540 --> 01:51:22,740 send out my articles. 1893 01:51:22,890 --> 01:51:25,920 Can you can you lightning enable that for some value for value? 1894 01:51:27,450 --> 01:51:29,670 Yeah, you know what, let's talk about that. afterwards. I use I 1895 01:51:29,670 --> 01:51:34,110 host for bushka. And they've been really excited to, to work 1896 01:51:34,110 --> 01:51:36,330 with any innovative things like that. So if it's something I can 1897 01:51:36,330 --> 01:51:38,610 do myself, then I'll ask for your help on it. And if it's 1898 01:51:38,610 --> 01:51:40,590 something they need to do, we'll see about getting it on their 1899 01:51:40,590 --> 01:51:41,730 roadmap as soon as possible. 1900 01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:45,150 For anybody who's interested. Just find your podcast on 1901 01:51:45,150 --> 01:51:48,360 podcast. index.org hit the lightning bolt and you're off to 1902 01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:50,340 the races. The process starts there. 1903 01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:57,480 Yep. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Brian. This is fun show. Friday 1904 01:51:57,480 --> 01:51:57,780 show. 1905 01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:02,700 Dave anything for you for the for the final minutes here at 1906 01:52:02,700 --> 01:52:03,180 the board. 1907 01:52:03,690 --> 01:52:06,690 No, no, man. I'm just glad to be back on the horse. 1908 01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:09,540 Yeah, well, I know you've had a real busy week at the day job. 1909 01:52:09,540 --> 01:52:12,270 So you know, all the stuff you're doing is so appreciated, 1910 01:52:12,270 --> 01:52:12,540 man. 1911 01:52:12,750 --> 01:52:13,830 Yeah, man. Yeah, no 1912 01:52:13,830 --> 01:52:17,550 problem is not like, like, you know, like lazy, lazy bums like 1913 01:52:17,550 --> 01:52:20,730 me and just cavorting around and vacationing and taking all this 1914 01:52:20,730 --> 01:52:22,860 time off. I feel guilty sitting on the beach. 1915 01:52:24,420 --> 01:52:25,140 Margarita, 1916 01:52:25,170 --> 01:52:28,350 Ryan, thank you again and of course we will return next 1917 01:52:28,350 --> 01:52:31,110 Friday with another board meeting as we take a look at 1918 01:52:31,110 --> 01:52:34,740 what's going on with podcasting 2.0 right here on podcast 1919 01:52:34,740 --> 01:52:35,490 index.org. 1920 01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,810 You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 This is 1921 01:52:54,810 --> 01:52:58,200 podcast.com for more information.