1
00:00:01,220 --> 00:00:10,546
Podcasting 2.0 for July 17th, 2026, episode 265, G-Hobbyist. We

2
00:00:10,666 --> 00:00:13,068
exist. Okay, so we took a couple weeks off. What

3
00:00:13,108 --> 00:00:16,210
can I tell you? We're human. Hello, everybody. Welcome to

4
00:00:16,270 --> 00:00:19,793
the official board meeting of Podcasting 2.0. This is where

5
00:00:19,853 --> 00:00:23,495
it all goes down. Everything is discussed, all cards on

6
00:00:23,575 --> 00:00:26,437
the table, and we are the only boardroom that doesn't

7
00:00:26,477 --> 00:00:29,939
blame China for election interference. I'm Adam Curry here in

8
00:00:29,939 --> 00:00:32,501
the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama,

9
00:00:32,881 --> 00:00:35,643
the man who wrote an online tool used by evil

10
00:00:35,783 --> 00:00:38,305
AI bots. Say hello to my friend on the other

11
00:00:38,385 --> 00:00:50,473
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dan. you Those pipes.

12
00:00:51,854 --> 00:00:54,475
You have a lot of wind in those lungs. Yes.

13
00:00:56,037 --> 00:00:59,779
Thank God. An online tool. An online tool. If you

14
00:00:59,819 --> 00:01:04,582
wrote an online tool, baby. Yes. That was borderline insulting.

15
00:01:04,982 --> 00:01:08,045
Online tool. I think the person who wrote that is

16
00:01:08,105 --> 00:01:12,548
an online tool. You know, so I think I posted

17
00:01:13,548 --> 00:01:19,412
Gell-Man. amnesia amnesia for those who don't know whenever you

18
00:01:19,532 --> 00:01:23,875
read something in a publication that you know everything about

19
00:01:23,935 --> 00:01:27,778
and is absolutely incorrect, you cannot trust anything else from

20
00:01:27,818 --> 00:01:32,221
that publication or that actual article. And there was also

21
00:01:32,361 --> 00:01:35,263
no evidence they posted about it. They didn't post any

22
00:01:35,383 --> 00:01:38,405
scripts that had podcastindex.org in it, as far as I

23
00:01:38,465 --> 00:01:42,747
could tell. No. But they did link directly to the

24
00:01:43,848 --> 00:01:47,691
public assets download page, which I'm sure probably ripped out

25
00:01:47,771 --> 00:01:51,733
about five terabytes of bandwidth from us. People are like,

26
00:01:51,853 --> 00:01:54,996
oh, this is cool. Let's get this. No, it's all

27
00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:57,697
the bots. All the bots went and downloaded all that

28
00:01:57,737 --> 00:01:59,038
crap and didn't even know what to do with it.

29
00:01:59,178 --> 00:02:00,959
Have you looked at it? Have you looked at the

30
00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:06,503
downloads? I have not. I need to. So the story

31
00:02:06,603 --> 00:02:13,248
here... was that a supposed hack... of Suno revealed that

32
00:02:13,268 --> 00:02:17,410
the AI music generator used Podcast Index, an online tool,

33
00:02:18,011 --> 00:02:23,815
to do its targeting. It identified 420,000 different podcasts that

34
00:02:23,855 --> 00:02:27,937
had had at least a five. at least five 30-minute

35
00:02:28,017 --> 00:02:31,560
episodes, and sought to download roughly one million hours of

36
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,963
podcasts. Yeah, and of which they did what with. Yeah,

37
00:02:37,023 --> 00:02:41,206
exactly. What is the point? What are you going to

38
00:02:41,286 --> 00:02:44,488
do with that? What is Suno doing with podcasts? I

39
00:02:44,608 --> 00:02:48,211
thought they were just music. Yeah, it's baffling to me.

40
00:02:49,312 --> 00:02:52,474
I mean, I found a couple of accounts in the...

41
00:02:53,674 --> 00:02:57,097
You know, in our user registration table that look like

42
00:02:57,117 --> 00:02:59,999
they might be related to those guys, but I mean,

43
00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,760
nothing. I don't know, nothing stood out really. I don't

44
00:03:03,101 --> 00:03:05,022
know what they did with it or how they got

45
00:03:05,042 --> 00:03:07,864
the data. I guess they didn't use the API. I

46
00:03:07,924 --> 00:03:10,025
guess they just used the download. Right, and then they

47
00:03:10,105 --> 00:03:12,287
had to walk the whole tree and look at every...

48
00:03:13,307 --> 00:03:14,748
No, I guess we have links in there. They could

49
00:03:14,748 --> 00:03:23,574
have looked at the... length tags, length. The size, file

50
00:03:23,634 --> 00:03:29,278
size, the bytes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Oh, well. Hey,

51
00:03:29,398 --> 00:03:31,880
so welcome back. It's good to be on the show

52
00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:33,521
again. Good to be here in the boardroom. Hello, boardroom.

53
00:03:34,241 --> 00:03:38,324
Hey, boardroom. Hello, boardroom. That was an extended absence. Sorry

54
00:03:38,404 --> 00:03:40,806
about that. No, it's all right. It was good. You

55
00:03:40,886 --> 00:03:43,687
got to go visit family and stuff, and that's important.

56
00:03:43,848 --> 00:03:46,409
Yeah, still no baby. She should have been here by

57
00:03:46,489 --> 00:03:50,532
now. Oh, uh-oh. How many days overdue are we? Yeah,

58
00:03:50,612 --> 00:03:54,294
so I have an angry daughter, basically. Yeah, she's ready

59
00:03:54,355 --> 00:03:57,537
to get that thing going. Just getting angry. Just getting

60
00:03:57,617 --> 00:04:02,180
angry. Good question. What do these guys do with that?

61
00:04:03,401 --> 00:04:05,402
I guess you could whisper it all and get the

62
00:04:05,462 --> 00:04:10,525
transcripts and do something with that. Oh, yeah. Our bandwidth

63
00:04:10,605 --> 00:04:14,328
is up. I mean, we're still safely within limits, but

64
00:04:14,468 --> 00:04:16,949
it is way more than we normally have. So I

65
00:04:17,030 --> 00:04:23,033
bet automation just killed that page. 30% monthly usage. Usually

66
00:04:23,094 --> 00:04:25,055
at this point, halfway through the month, we're only at

67
00:04:25,075 --> 00:04:29,038
like 10%. There is something to be said for, I

68
00:04:29,678 --> 00:04:32,220
mean, I think transcripts are one of the most powerful

69
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,662
things we've ever developed, and we didn't even realize how

70
00:04:35,782 --> 00:04:39,925
powerful it would be. moving forward. And I'll just give

71
00:04:39,945 --> 00:04:45,068
you a couple examples. Uh, So I have a transcript

72
00:04:45,288 --> 00:04:51,933
of 1,886 no agenda shows. I've got a transcript of

73
00:04:52,093 --> 00:04:56,015
several hundred Kareem the Keepers. I've got MoFax. I've got

74
00:04:56,356 --> 00:05:00,438
the board meeting. and um i just saw and it's

75
00:05:00,478 --> 00:05:03,620
just really interesting because i i just what do i

76
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,362
hear oh that's me i'm sorry hold on a second

77
00:05:05,362 --> 00:05:11,205
i hear something going There it is. Man, my ears

78
00:05:11,265 --> 00:05:14,327
are still with me. I heard some music playing. Okay.

79
00:05:14,708 --> 00:05:21,092
You're like a bat. I sleep hanging upside down. And

80
00:05:21,172 --> 00:05:27,296
so I fired up an agent. And I said, Agent.

81
00:05:27,656 --> 00:05:31,119
Agent. Hello, agent. I never give my agents names. Robot,

82
00:05:31,419 --> 00:05:36,182
agent, whatever. Robot is my favorite. Robot. I said, go

83
00:05:36,282 --> 00:05:39,464
write the story of my life. And I didn't look

84
00:05:39,544 --> 00:05:43,487
at it for four weeks. Based on podcast transcripts? Yes.

85
00:05:46,669 --> 00:05:52,393
It is amazingly good. Is it depressing? No, it's really,

86
00:05:52,533 --> 00:05:55,915
really interesting. I mean, I'm an interesting guy. Now, I

87
00:05:56,015 --> 00:05:59,878
did give it a few parameters. I said, if you're

88
00:05:59,898 --> 00:06:02,239
going to write this. You said, make it sound good.

89
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,982
No, no, no, not at all. I said. um i

90
00:06:06,042 --> 00:06:08,703
want i want this to be a memoir like um

91
00:06:09,304 --> 00:06:13,587
the kid stays in the picture from robert evans Have

92
00:06:13,607 --> 00:06:15,448
you ever heard that? No, I don't know what any

93
00:06:15,468 --> 00:06:18,250
of that is. Robert Evans, he was the producer of

94
00:06:18,290 --> 00:06:23,013
many movies, The Godfather. The Godfather series being the most

95
00:06:23,193 --> 00:06:26,255
famous. He was married to Ali McGraw for several years.

96
00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,158
And he wound up doing an, before he died, he

97
00:06:30,218 --> 00:06:32,819
wound up doing an audio book version of it. And

98
00:06:32,899 --> 00:06:36,422
it's just riveting. And then later, Ken Burns turned it

99
00:06:36,462 --> 00:06:43,286
into a movie. With his voice, the audio book. But

100
00:06:43,306 --> 00:06:45,828
then with the typical Ken Burns photos, you know, the

101
00:06:46,088 --> 00:06:49,350
slow zoom out and all that stuff. And I just

102
00:06:49,470 --> 00:06:51,312
always love... Did they have a guy playing the banjo

103
00:06:51,452 --> 00:06:55,935
and talking like the Civil War? No, no, no. Man,

104
00:06:56,015 --> 00:06:58,056
I wonder if I can find an example of that.

105
00:06:58,656 --> 00:07:08,323
Let me see. second I'm sure I can Evans kid

106
00:07:08,603 --> 00:07:12,586
stays in the picture. Sometimes these entire movies are on

107
00:07:12,646 --> 00:07:15,348
YouTube, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, I've seen that

108
00:07:15,368 --> 00:07:18,770
too. Oh, in fact, this is a... Mind if I

109
00:07:18,770 --> 00:07:22,112
come in a minute? Wait, that's not it. That's definitely

110
00:07:22,192 --> 00:07:25,494
not it. Where's the Robert Evans? This is a trailer.

111
00:07:26,815 --> 00:07:28,736
He has been both the toast of this town and

112
00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:30,377
he's been an outcast in Hollywood. He was in the

113
00:07:30,418 --> 00:07:33,119
golden era of the new Hollywood. And me, I was

114
00:07:33,179 --> 00:07:34,901
lucky to be part of it. My name is Robert

115
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,203
Evans. No, this is trailer. The audio book is just

116
00:07:38,243 --> 00:07:40,704
really good. Anyway, so I told it that and I

117
00:07:40,764 --> 00:07:44,767
said, I want you to write this memoir. Looking back

118
00:07:44,887 --> 00:07:48,189
on my life from the vantage point of someone who's

119
00:07:48,249 --> 00:07:50,611
found Jesus and how I look back at what God

120
00:07:50,671 --> 00:07:54,473
did in my life. And it like wrote 12 chapters.

121
00:07:56,235 --> 00:08:04,160
How many words? 24,000. Holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. And because

122
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,022
I've told all my stories. How many ways does it

123
00:08:08,042 --> 00:08:12,305
repeat itself, though? No, not at all. Have you read

124
00:08:12,305 --> 00:08:16,768
the whole thing? No, it came up like we were

125
00:08:16,788 --> 00:08:19,890
in Holland. We're in the car driving back from Christina's

126
00:08:19,910 --> 00:08:22,532
house. And I said, oh, no, I've got, I'm writing

127
00:08:22,592 --> 00:08:24,814
a book. And Tina says, what? I said, yeah, I've

128
00:08:24,853 --> 00:08:27,355
got a ghostwriter. What? You didn't tell me any of

129
00:08:27,375 --> 00:08:28,936
this. I said, no, I forgot about it because I

130
00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,778
just gave it to the agent. And I said, let

131
00:08:31,838 --> 00:08:33,679
me go get it. And so I start reading it

132
00:08:33,699 --> 00:08:36,101
in the car. And it even had, you know, her

133
00:08:36,161 --> 00:08:38,623
whole story in there because it just pulled stuff from

134
00:08:38,983 --> 00:08:43,286
Curry and the Keeper transcript. My point being that. There's

135
00:08:43,646 --> 00:08:46,908
so much power in the context of the written word.

136
00:08:46,948 --> 00:08:49,610
There's a lot of issues around it, you know, because

137
00:08:50,310 --> 00:08:52,212
when I think I read at one point that I've

138
00:08:52,232 --> 00:08:55,134
been a can inspector for the government, you know, obviously

139
00:08:55,854 --> 00:08:59,136
that's Dvorak's story that it picked up, you know, so

140
00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:04,019
there's some contextual things missing. I would call that factual

141
00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:06,481
things. But, you know, so that's just one thing I

142
00:09:06,541 --> 00:09:08,422
was able to do with the transcript. And I think

143
00:09:08,502 --> 00:09:11,564
it was Spurlock who asked me when we had him

144
00:09:11,684 --> 00:09:14,366
on a couple of board meetings, meetings ago. He said,

145
00:09:14,426 --> 00:09:17,428
but are you doing anything with AI or with agents

146
00:09:17,488 --> 00:09:23,332
or LLMs on the client side? And my whole life

147
00:09:23,392 --> 00:09:26,794
has changed for podcasting, the way I produce my show.

148
00:09:28,175 --> 00:09:33,919
It really has been life-changing. I've saved countless hours per

149
00:09:33,979 --> 00:09:39,183
week just by having the agent cut clips and put

150
00:09:39,203 --> 00:09:43,706
together rundowns and show notes and research. things, you know,

151
00:09:43,766 --> 00:09:46,888
it's like, hey, J.D. Vance was on Rogan. Go whisper

152
00:09:46,948 --> 00:09:49,750
the entire show and pull some good clips out of

153
00:09:49,810 --> 00:09:54,673
it. That's literally what I can do. um And I

154
00:09:54,733 --> 00:09:57,115
was thinking about it, you know, because we have all

155
00:09:57,175 --> 00:09:59,696
these app developers. And I have always been an app

156
00:09:59,716 --> 00:09:59,956
developer.

157
00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:05,423
advocate of doing something different. um And I've never really

158
00:10:05,463 --> 00:10:10,847
moved anybody. No one really ever moves anywhere. And so

159
00:10:10,907 --> 00:10:14,609
this came up on Pod News Weekly Review in the

160
00:10:14,669 --> 00:10:19,813
context of annotations. An annotation tag, I guess something that

161
00:10:19,973 --> 00:10:25,657
Apple is doing with, was it called timed links? Yeah,

162
00:10:25,777 --> 00:10:29,379
where they try to like... farm out or ferret out

163
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,941
what the link, what a link to a thing you're

164
00:10:31,961 --> 00:10:33,883
talking about is, and then put a link to their

165
00:10:33,983 --> 00:10:37,705
own way to get that. Yeah. Which, you know, is.

166
00:10:38,866 --> 00:10:44,910
Kind of interesting. I completely. see how that's pretty much

167
00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:49,373
chapters or what Daniel Lewis would call the super chapters.

168
00:10:50,914 --> 00:10:54,016
There's nothing really groundbreaking. And I think it's interesting that

169
00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:56,978
Apple did that. But that's a real example of Apple

170
00:10:57,098 --> 00:11:01,341
differentiating their podcast app by doing something different. Now, you

171
00:11:01,381 --> 00:11:04,043
can agree with it or not, but the conversation kind

172
00:11:04,103 --> 00:11:07,045
of went in the wrong direction. And that's what I

173
00:11:07,085 --> 00:11:09,047
want to tie into. This is a piece from Pod

174
00:11:09,107 --> 00:11:11,748
News Weekly Review because Lord knows this show is about

175
00:11:11,788 --> 00:11:15,811
reviewing their show. that. I also spoke last week to

176
00:11:15,971 --> 00:11:20,494
Ryan Williams at Car Curious about podcast annotations which I

177
00:11:20,554 --> 00:11:24,997
sort of likened to Apple's time blinks. We had some

178
00:11:25,017 --> 00:11:28,460
feedback again Nathan Gathright was saying that I love structured

179
00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:30,781
data as much as the next nerd. I wish this

180
00:11:30,801 --> 00:11:33,723
idea the best luck but I'm convinced that using LLM

181
00:11:33,923 --> 00:11:36,765
to derive data from transit will remain the purview of

182
00:11:36,846 --> 00:11:41,729
players not feeds. Weirdly Adam Curry also came in on

183
00:11:41,769 --> 00:11:43,390
the back of this. I haven't put the clip here

184
00:11:43,470 --> 00:11:46,872
James Ross, but he was also saying that he sees

185
00:11:47,072 --> 00:11:52,356
LLMs as well as being the way for on-device abstraction

186
00:11:52,616 --> 00:11:56,519
of data rather than tags. And I'm like, sorry, didn't

187
00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,222
you come up with the namespace? Okay. That's kind of

188
00:12:01,342 --> 00:12:06,326
apples and oranges. But that's the part that I really

189
00:12:06,346 --> 00:12:10,889
wanted to drill down on. Because the namespace is completely

190
00:12:10,969 --> 00:12:13,611
separate from what I think Nathan was saying and what

191
00:12:13,711 --> 00:12:19,595
I'm saying. From an app developer standpoint, there's so many

192
00:12:19,675 --> 00:12:23,978
things you can do for an individual user. So from

193
00:12:24,058 --> 00:12:26,900
a publisher standpoint, yeah, I may want to link to

194
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:30,742
something. And we've had that basic capability in chapters. There's

195
00:12:30,762 --> 00:12:34,004
nothing really new. But what can an app do for

196
00:12:34,065 --> 00:12:39,148
me? Why would I be drawn to a particular app?

197
00:12:39,588 --> 00:12:42,850
to me because it really has an understanding of what

198
00:12:42,931 --> 00:12:47,254
I like because it has all this context of things

199
00:12:47,293 --> 00:12:50,956
that I've been listening to, real context based upon transcripts.

200
00:12:52,077 --> 00:12:54,198
Now, James, and this is really the reason why I

201
00:12:54,218 --> 00:12:56,440
brought it up because James gets all huffy about this

202
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,782
stuff. I mean, he has such a hatred of AI.

203
00:13:00,122 --> 00:13:05,886
It's almost unhealthy. Well, I mean, look, I come at

204
00:13:05,906 --> 00:13:08,908
this on a very, I come at this basically saying,

205
00:13:09,328 --> 00:13:12,811
can we copy what Apple did with transcripts? They have

206
00:13:12,991 --> 00:13:15,393
LLMs that do all of the transcripts if you can't

207
00:13:15,433 --> 00:13:18,014
be bothered to do them yourself. But if you want

208
00:13:18,195 --> 00:13:21,897
to do them yourself, if you want to put additional

209
00:13:21,977 --> 00:13:27,021
data into your podcast feed, if you want to add

210
00:13:27,121 --> 00:13:29,722
all of this stuff, then please respect what the creator

211
00:13:29,802 --> 00:13:32,424
wants. And if the creator can't be bothered, then by

212
00:13:32,504 --> 00:13:37,668
all means fill it in with a fancy autocomplete system,

213
00:13:37,728 --> 00:13:40,310
which is all that an LLM is it's a fancy

214
00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:42,791
autocomplete system by all means fill it in with that

215
00:13:42,891 --> 00:13:47,855
that's fine but yeah but I would much rather that

216
00:13:47,875 --> 00:13:53,118
the creator is given the opportunity to do something good

217
00:13:53,238 --> 00:13:57,441
first so that's that's me basically yeah why are you

218
00:13:57,441 --> 00:14:01,064
so mad bro it's more than an autocomplete so I

219
00:14:01,144 --> 00:14:05,207
just I mean, full disclosure, I hate AI too. So

220
00:14:05,567 --> 00:14:08,449
I'm right there with him. And your hatred is not

221
00:14:08,529 --> 00:14:20,657
healthy either. It's not. It's... I... The hatred... comes from

222
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,122
It comes from a different, it comes from an interaction

223
00:14:28,202 --> 00:14:36,208
that. that the world. So if you do polling, This

224
00:14:36,308 --> 00:14:41,071
is... This is accurate. If you do polling, all the

225
00:14:41,111 --> 00:14:46,735
current polls. show that there's an intense dislike of AI.

226
00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:52,319
in the public, in just public sentiment. Like more so

227
00:14:52,599 --> 00:14:57,242
than historically, the latest numbers I heard was from maybe

228
00:14:57,282 --> 00:15:00,684
two or three weeks ago. The latest numbers I heard

229
00:15:00,704 --> 00:15:06,709
were that people dislike AI in surveys more than they

230
00:15:06,829 --> 00:15:13,933
disliked nuclear power after Three Mile Island. Sure. What I'm

231
00:15:13,994 --> 00:15:19,537
saying is the intensity of people who dislike... AI that

232
00:15:19,657 --> 00:15:27,543
much. It comes from... the way that it's being introduced

233
00:15:27,863 --> 00:15:30,585
and put in front of you on a daily basis.

234
00:15:31,005 --> 00:15:35,808
I completely agree. The marketing has been either. This is

235
00:15:35,908 --> 00:15:38,410
a God and it will run everything in your life?

236
00:15:39,631 --> 00:15:42,233
to this is so dangerous we can't give it to

237
00:15:42,293 --> 00:15:48,517
you. So the marketing has been completely bullshit. Marketing, yes,

238
00:15:48,577 --> 00:15:51,179
but I'm saying something a little bit different. I'm saying

239
00:15:51,239 --> 00:15:54,221
something different than the marketing aspect. What I'm saying is...

240
00:15:55,982 --> 00:16:06,910
The... You? have seen You are in control of your...

241
00:16:08,611 --> 00:16:14,975
of your production process. You are the boss. And in

242
00:16:15,115 --> 00:16:21,319
that context... When you're able to explore and see the

243
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,983
uses of a technology like this, What you see are

244
00:16:27,023 --> 00:16:30,946
the big wins. Oh, I see the losses too, brother.

245
00:16:30,966 --> 00:16:34,889
No, no, no. I have hair-pulling moments. I'm not saying

246
00:16:34,909 --> 00:16:40,312
you don't. What I'm saying is the... You're in a

247
00:16:40,693 --> 00:16:45,216
sort of like a... You're a manager of one. Yes.

248
00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:50,479
And so in that context... the wins that you get.

249
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,123
can be big and they outweigh. cause of the things

250
00:16:56,163 --> 00:16:59,285
like time savings and that kind of thing, they are

251
00:16:59,806 --> 00:17:06,310
monumental. What most people's interaction with in AI is in

252
00:17:06,370 --> 00:17:10,833
the context of a corporate job. And in the context

253
00:17:10,933 --> 00:17:14,736
of a corporate job on a day-to-day basis, you are

254
00:17:15,096 --> 00:17:19,299
inundated for – we have been inundated for months with

255
00:17:19,959 --> 00:17:22,881
AI, AI, AI. It's going to change your job. I

256
00:17:22,941 --> 00:17:25,243
understand. You've got to keep up. You're going to lose

257
00:17:25,283 --> 00:17:28,145
your job. I understand. The boss coming into your office

258
00:17:28,205 --> 00:17:30,767
and saying, hey, what have you done with AI? Have

259
00:17:30,787 --> 00:17:32,868
you used enough AI? Hey, I just heard about this

260
00:17:32,908 --> 00:17:35,010
AI tool. Can you do a demo on it? That's

261
00:17:35,090 --> 00:17:38,752
a direct result of the marketing and of the media.

262
00:17:39,633 --> 00:17:44,676
people just talking BS about it. Everybody right now in

263
00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:47,198
the corporate world is to the point where they're like,

264
00:17:47,778 --> 00:17:49,840
if my boss comes in here and mentions the word

265
00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:53,762
AI one more time, I'm going to scream and run

266
00:17:53,863 --> 00:17:58,766
out the door because you're supposed to somehow just, quote,

267
00:17:59,146 --> 00:18:07,212
adopt AI. I understand. I understand. I completely understand. But

268
00:18:07,252 --> 00:18:11,514
see, that's where, because what happens is... But James doesn't

269
00:18:11,535 --> 00:18:14,456
have a boss coming in to him saying, you've got

270
00:18:14,477 --> 00:18:19,100
to use AI. Yeah, but the podcast industry has been

271
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:26,024
pushing AI. on itself. For months and for years now.

272
00:18:26,144 --> 00:18:28,566
He's literally been the one talking about it for years.

273
00:18:29,367 --> 00:18:32,269
Yeah, about how it's a mistake. Well, and I'm going

274
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:35,391
to, okay, let me just segment out a few things.

275
00:18:37,192 --> 00:18:41,595
There's one particular piece that hurts me. And Bemrose just

276
00:18:41,635 --> 00:18:45,738
did it. Oh, a guy who can't code one line

277
00:18:45,798 --> 00:18:50,041
of Python without a trillion dollar brain. Yeah. And Paul

278
00:18:50,121 --> 00:18:53,083
does this to me too. When I say, hey, look

279
00:18:53,123 --> 00:18:56,285
what I created. And I'm not hiding. I'm not pretending

280
00:18:56,385 --> 00:18:59,867
I can code. I said, here's something I created. He's

281
00:18:59,887 --> 00:19:04,671
always very negative. I can feel it. It's like, I

282
00:19:04,711 --> 00:19:06,472
don't like this. This is not the way I would

283
00:19:06,512 --> 00:19:08,754
do it. This makes no sense. And I'm like, oh,

284
00:19:08,834 --> 00:19:10,355
well, tell me what would make sense and I'll see

285
00:19:10,375 --> 00:19:14,698
if I can fix it. People who have, in particular,

286
00:19:15,038 --> 00:19:19,161
developers who have coding skills built up over decades get

287
00:19:19,221 --> 00:19:21,402
very irked. And you even posted a meme about it.

288
00:19:21,863 --> 00:19:24,784
Get very irked when someone who can't code their way

289
00:19:24,845 --> 00:19:27,466
out of a paper bag comes up with something that

290
00:19:27,486 --> 00:19:30,849
is functional, but is built with AI. And I understand

291
00:19:30,929 --> 00:19:34,611
that. Just don't kill me every single time. Now, to

292
00:19:34,671 --> 00:19:37,933
be clear, the meme was exactly what, the meme was

293
00:19:38,014 --> 00:19:42,476
the meme. The meme was making fun of how angry

294
00:19:42,617 --> 00:19:45,479
programmers get at people who... Yes, true. Yeah, true. True.

295
00:19:46,499 --> 00:19:52,443
um But my point is... If we can move all

296
00:19:52,463 --> 00:19:55,345
of that stuff aside and just see where can we

297
00:19:55,445 --> 00:19:59,288
get some real benefit from this, some real benefit. I

298
00:19:59,448 --> 00:19:59,989
truly believe.

299
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:07,525
that what's coming with compacted, compressed models, hardware that runs

300
00:20:07,705 --> 00:20:13,068
it locally, that there are going to be experiences that

301
00:20:13,108 --> 00:20:17,291
can be built for listeners, for users of podcast apps

302
00:20:18,072 --> 00:20:22,255
that become very personal and I think people will pay

303
00:20:22,375 --> 00:20:29,039
for it. and that will almost lock them into that

304
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:36,945
podcast app because they're so invested in... in teaching it

305
00:20:37,605 --> 00:20:40,267
what they like without having to really do too much

306
00:20:40,387 --> 00:20:43,749
work. And it can be all based off of contextual

307
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:48,953
data, primarily transcripts. That's all that I'm saying. I'm not

308
00:20:49,013 --> 00:20:54,056
saying we shouldn't do tags and that creators... that podcasters

309
00:20:54,517 --> 00:20:57,639
can't add stuff that they want to. Those are all

310
00:20:57,699 --> 00:21:02,542
good signals. But what is coming, I truly believe, is

311
00:21:02,662 --> 00:21:05,804
this, because that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the personalized

312
00:21:05,844 --> 00:21:09,487
nature of AI. Everything that's corporate, that is some service,

313
00:21:09,627 --> 00:21:11,848
it all sucks. I'm not interested. It doesn't work. It

314
00:21:11,969 --> 00:21:17,452
breaks. It's fake advertising. Nothing is right. But the ability

315
00:21:17,612 --> 00:21:22,636
to... tailor my world to what I need has been

316
00:21:22,736 --> 00:21:28,620
revolutionary. It doesn't come without pain and crying and like,

317
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,921
oh, I just want to improve this 20% and it

318
00:21:30,941 --> 00:21:32,943
goes completely off the rails and I'm up until three

319
00:21:32,983 --> 00:21:35,765
in the morning trying to figure out what just happened.

320
00:21:36,705 --> 00:21:43,770
but from an experiential... of a podcast app, I think

321
00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:46,992
that there will be a lot of opportunities for app

322
00:21:47,052 --> 00:21:52,997
developers to use the context, particularly of transcripts, and create

323
00:21:53,057 --> 00:21:57,540
experiences that will really lock your listeners into your app.

324
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,282
That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying, you know, namespace

325
00:22:01,382 --> 00:22:03,784
is no good or we shouldn't have tags. I'm not

326
00:22:03,844 --> 00:22:12,049
saying any of that. That's my point. The difficulty of

327
00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:18,774
conversations like this is that I don't disagree. Like it.

328
00:22:20,635 --> 00:22:26,319
The reality of all of this stuff is subtle. There's

329
00:22:26,339 --> 00:22:29,721
differences in context that make all the difference in the

330
00:22:29,742 --> 00:22:35,686
result. N. if I were to go back in time,

331
00:22:36,446 --> 00:22:38,888
if, if we, if we can't, if we started podcasting

332
00:22:38,928 --> 00:22:45,772
today and I don't think a transcript tag would ever

333
00:22:45,873 --> 00:22:49,515
even come up as an option. Like if, if, if.

334
00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:53,238
if the whole project, if the namespace started today, nobody

335
00:22:53,278 --> 00:22:56,019
would think of doing a transcript tag because LLMs and

336
00:22:56,059 --> 00:22:58,301
stuff would have already done it. Possibly. And we just

337
00:22:58,341 --> 00:23:03,565
wouldn't think about it. Yeah, possibly. We may entertain the

338
00:23:03,645 --> 00:23:05,606
idea briefly and then say, oh, well, that's a waste

339
00:23:05,666 --> 00:23:08,468
of time. Like, why would we make somebody go do,

340
00:23:08,668 --> 00:23:13,071
like, put a transcript tag in? So, like, I feel

341
00:23:13,191 --> 00:23:20,816
like... So in that sense... The transcript tag itself. is

342
00:23:20,856 --> 00:23:27,221
already sort of an anachronism. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's

343
00:23:27,381 --> 00:23:32,024
sort of a vestigial organ on the namespace. But the

344
00:23:32,064 --> 00:23:35,166
thing about it is... Vestigial organ. Hold on a second.

345
00:23:35,326 --> 00:23:39,309
Show title. Let me just write that one down. Vestigial

346
00:23:39,569 --> 00:23:42,251
organ. A vestigial organ is sort of like an online

347
00:23:42,331 --> 00:23:47,595
tool, but you can't download anything from it. Um. But

348
00:23:47,635 --> 00:23:50,877
I mean, like, so, so like in general, I don't

349
00:23:50,937 --> 00:23:53,939
necessarily disagree with some of the, some of these things.

350
00:23:55,940 --> 00:23:59,463
And I also like I use. I use AI coding

351
00:23:59,623 --> 00:24:04,266
agents all the time. Every day, every single day, I'm

352
00:24:04,406 --> 00:24:10,070
using an LLM in some shape, form, or fashion. and

353
00:24:11,711 --> 00:24:16,414
But at the same, but that's. That's not the part

354
00:24:16,494 --> 00:24:21,017
that frustrates me. The usage of an agent is not

355
00:20:00,000 --> 00:24:24,520
– or LLMs in general is not what I hate.

356
00:24:26,341 --> 00:24:34,987
What I hate is the... is the Um... is the

357
00:24:35,027 --> 00:24:38,890
entire atmosphere that's been built around it. Oh, understandable, of

358
00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:45,934
course. For instance, for instance. Um... You know, one of

359
00:24:45,974 --> 00:24:52,359
my long-running issues has been that... Uh... Twit did not

360
00:24:52,419 --> 00:24:58,703
put chapters into there. Podcasts for subscribers. Mm-hmm. And they

361
00:24:58,763 --> 00:25:00,544
recently started doing it, I guess, I think about a

362
00:25:00,564 --> 00:25:04,367
month ago, maybe six weeks ago. They started putting chapter

363
00:25:04,427 --> 00:25:13,033
markers into the episodes for their paying subscribers. It's great,

364
00:25:13,673 --> 00:25:17,296
except that they don't work. Because they don't work. They

365
00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:21,519
don't work because it's clearly an AI that's adding these

366
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:25,802
chapters in some way. And the AI just gets the

367
00:25:25,842 --> 00:25:29,044
timing all wrong. You can go through and hit every

368
00:25:29,104 --> 00:25:31,986
chapter, and every chapter takes you to the wrong place.

369
00:25:32,106 --> 00:25:35,408
Okay, so it's not that the chapters are contextually wrong,

370
00:25:35,488 --> 00:25:42,553
but they're technically wrong. The chapters correctly summarize a thing

371
00:25:42,613 --> 00:25:46,316
that will not be talked about for another 15 minutes

372
00:25:46,376 --> 00:25:52,580
in the show. That's a QC problem. Yeah, and that

373
00:25:52,660 --> 00:25:57,563
is the story of AI. The story of AI is

374
00:25:58,504 --> 00:26:05,469
in the current era. is We have to throw AI

375
00:26:05,569 --> 00:26:08,771
at everything as fast as possible, and we sure do

376
00:26:08,851 --> 00:26:12,393
hope it works. Or actually, we're not even that concerned

377
00:26:12,453 --> 00:26:14,315
if it does work, because if we throw AI at

378
00:26:14,395 --> 00:26:17,157
it, it just solves a problem. It's like I have

379
00:26:17,177 --> 00:26:19,778
a problem where I can't put chapters into my podcast.

380
00:26:20,339 --> 00:26:23,701
AI. And you don't stop to even think, did it

381
00:26:23,721 --> 00:26:27,504
work? Did it actually do a good job? Right. Like

382
00:26:27,724 --> 00:26:30,466
what you can, what you're doing is you're creating a

383
00:26:30,526 --> 00:26:36,250
thing for, you're creating a workflow. process using these tools

384
00:26:36,830 --> 00:26:40,532
and it is really important to you that the outcome

385
00:26:40,653 --> 00:26:45,436
is correct yeah because that's your livelihood and you're you're

386
00:26:45,536 --> 00:26:48,798
banking its output you're banking your livelihood on its output

387
00:26:48,818 --> 00:26:53,141
being good And so if it's wrong, you notice immediately

388
00:26:53,241 --> 00:26:56,103
and you are constantly iterating to fix it. Yes. That

389
00:26:56,183 --> 00:26:59,566
is the way you properly interact with technology. What we're

390
00:26:59,625 --> 00:27:01,547
seeing in the broader atmosphere. Let me just pat myself

391
00:27:01,647 --> 00:27:04,409
on the back. Okay. I'm doing a good job. Good

392
00:27:04,489 --> 00:27:09,032
job. Little podcaster boy. Yeah. Yeah. Attaboy. But what we're

393
00:27:09,052 --> 00:27:13,135
seeing in the broader atmosphere. In the broader landscape of

394
00:27:13,315 --> 00:27:16,017
business, especially. Is people just say, oh, I'll just throw

395
00:27:16,057 --> 00:27:19,159
this in the chat GPT and it'll give me something.

396
00:27:19,159 --> 00:27:22,401
Yeah. And I had a conversation this morning and I

397
00:27:22,461 --> 00:27:24,543
can, I wish I could even talk about it, but

398
00:27:24,603 --> 00:27:29,606
it is the exact same issue that people. Do not

399
00:27:29,866 --> 00:27:36,371
understand. They do not understand how fragile and hallucinatory these

400
00:27:36,411 --> 00:27:42,815
tools are. They just think... I can just, it's like

401
00:27:42,875 --> 00:27:45,997
it's a magic box and they can throw a thing

402
00:27:46,077 --> 00:27:49,259
in it and out comes the right answer. And it's

403
00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:53,983
wrong like 50% of the time, but it's so confident

404
00:27:54,103 --> 00:27:57,545
in its wrongness that you think it's right. And I

405
00:27:57,625 --> 00:28:01,268
go back to this is a hijack. The whole thing

406
00:28:01,328 --> 00:28:06,771
is a hijack of our brains. Because we, we, the

407
00:28:06,831 --> 00:28:12,415
human race has never encountered. has never encountered anything that

408
00:28:12,475 --> 00:28:17,639
can talk except another human. And when humans talk to

409
00:28:17,679 --> 00:28:27,385
each other, We We are. mostly internally consistent with our

410
00:28:27,505 --> 00:28:31,208
thought processes. And what I mean is like, when I,

411
00:28:31,508 --> 00:28:34,190
when, when I tell you a thought that I'm having,

412
00:28:35,651 --> 00:28:40,594
That thought is in, is, is. is internally consistent in

413
00:28:40,674 --> 00:28:52,763
itself. Because... because humans are language processing machines. It's wired

414
00:28:52,883 --> 00:28:56,305
in. But what AI does, and you see this all

415
00:28:56,345 --> 00:29:00,848
the time, is it will contradict itself in the middle

416
00:29:00,948 --> 00:29:05,591
of a sentence that is also grammatically correct. So it

417
00:29:05,631 --> 00:29:12,516
will say things like... The dog ran as fast as

418
00:29:12,616 --> 00:29:19,661
it could across the street at a slow rate. Like,

419
00:29:20,201 --> 00:29:23,684
or something like that. And you're like, the grammar of

420
00:29:23,764 --> 00:29:27,847
the sentence is correct, but you're like, wait, what? You

421
00:29:27,927 --> 00:29:30,328
have to sit there and think about like, Hold on,

422
00:29:30,468 --> 00:29:36,252
hold on. We are not... Because we are only used

423
00:29:36,292 --> 00:29:41,436
to historically seeing that humans... are what the only things

424
00:29:41,456 --> 00:29:44,958
that can talk in language. Now there's a machine that

425
00:29:44,998 --> 00:29:48,541
can talk in language. But it doesn't know what it's

426
00:29:48,601 --> 00:29:52,764
saying. Right. It's just using the rules of grammar. Yeah,

427
00:29:52,824 --> 00:29:56,446
that's what I call the parlor trick. Yes, it's the

428
00:29:56,486 --> 00:29:59,908
parlor trick. Yeah. And so, like, this is the problem.

429
00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:03,902
The problem is... People in the business world right now,

430
00:30:04,002 --> 00:30:07,525
people are throwing like 150 page contracts into a chat

431
00:30:07,585 --> 00:30:09,426
bot. No, I get it. And they're like, it said

432
00:30:09,506 --> 00:30:11,147
that this was the case. I know. And you just

433
00:30:11,147 --> 00:30:13,889
go with it. I know. And I understand that frustration.

434
00:30:14,249 --> 00:30:16,811
I really do. And I don't have to deal with

435
00:30:16,851 --> 00:30:22,695
work slop and all of that. It makes people lose

436
00:30:22,735 --> 00:30:25,837
their minds. Yes, I know. But what has happened, what

437
00:30:25,917 --> 00:30:30,660
I see, and also college kids have been told that

438
00:30:31,441 --> 00:30:33,923
you're going to be useless. Elon Musk says no one

439
00:30:33,963 --> 00:30:36,324
will work. All of this stuff, which I think is

440
00:30:36,424 --> 00:30:40,607
total crap. And it's doom trolling is what it is.

441
00:30:41,348 --> 00:30:44,610
Yeah. But it's all comes from the basic marketing of

442
00:30:44,670 --> 00:30:46,971
these companies. And I just don't want people to be

443
00:30:47,072 --> 00:30:50,574
too afraid. I mean, so on no agenda in the

444
00:30:50,634 --> 00:30:55,157
morning. before the show starts, I play the end of

445
00:30:55,237 --> 00:30:57,959
show mixes. And the end of show mixes used to

446
00:30:57,999 --> 00:31:03,263
be people doing stuff in their home studio, multi-track, singing,

447
00:31:03,523 --> 00:31:06,845
doing takeoff songs. And they've, just like the Noah Jenna

448
00:31:06,905 --> 00:31:09,227
art, they've all gone away, they've all dried up. But

449
00:31:09,487 --> 00:31:14,170
slowly, people have emerged who are actually doing very interesting

450
00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:17,232
things. And they're paying more attention to the lyrics. I

451
00:31:17,292 --> 00:31:19,854
mean, even the fact that they'll take the newsletter and

452
00:31:19,874 --> 00:31:23,516
then turn that into a song, thing about it has

453
00:31:23,536 --> 00:31:26,799
become interesting. The voices have become better. You know, the

454
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:30,241
technology's improved a little bit, but without a doubt, the

455
00:31:30,301 --> 00:31:32,703
minute I start those three songs and I play them,

456
00:31:33,203 --> 00:31:36,785
just like in the boardroom, people go, AI minus, minus,

457
00:31:36,926 --> 00:31:40,408
AI minus, minus, AI minus, minus. There's a hatred, a

458
00:31:40,988 --> 00:31:44,551
hatred. I see it. I recognize it. I hear it's

459
00:31:44,651 --> 00:31:48,794
AI. I got you. You know, but that hatred, I

460
00:31:49,214 --> 00:31:53,337
think, is holding people back from exploring the creator, ways

461
00:31:53,437 --> 00:31:56,339
it can be used. See, I think what we are

462
00:31:56,379 --> 00:32:01,562
describing, what this conversation is a perfect description. of the

463
00:32:01,622 --> 00:32:07,867
entire problem of the current landscape of AI. Because... the

464
00:32:09,508 --> 00:32:16,412
In order to... You have... You have people who are,

465
00:32:16,593 --> 00:32:18,594
like you said, you have people who are getting doom

466
00:32:18,694 --> 00:32:23,297
trolled. and have negative reactions to it for that. You

467
00:32:23,357 --> 00:32:26,359
have people in a corporate world who are being AI

468
00:32:26,539 --> 00:32:29,561
slopped to death and they hate it. But then you

469
00:32:29,701 --> 00:32:35,646
also have people like yourself. who are having incredible success

470
00:32:35,726 --> 00:32:40,629
with it. And when you have incredible success with it.

471
00:32:41,550 --> 00:32:48,875
It makes you defensive. about negativity towards it. And then

472
00:32:49,195 --> 00:32:52,457
when you have nothing but negative experiences with it. it

473
00:32:52,517 --> 00:32:55,559
makes you defensive against the people who are having success.

474
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,421
It's like it's got to be binary. It can only

475
00:32:58,481 --> 00:33:00,743
be one or the other, either AI good or AI

476
00:33:00,843 --> 00:33:06,206
bad. And that's not... That's not a healthy thing. No.

477
00:33:07,427 --> 00:33:12,691
in general for any sort of like technology. I mean,

478
00:33:12,831 --> 00:33:15,853
in the end, 10 years from now, all this stuff

479
00:33:15,913 --> 00:33:17,834
is going to fade into just being part of the

480
00:33:17,854 --> 00:33:20,596
tools we use and it's going, and all the, all

481
00:33:20,636 --> 00:33:23,158
the stupid use cases for it that people try to

482
00:33:23,178 --> 00:33:25,940
cram into it are going to fade. And what's going

483
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,803
to be left is going to be the verified. verifiable

484
00:33:32,404 --> 00:33:39,149
Use cases like coding, like creative works. where where these

485
00:33:39,349 --> 00:33:46,414
tools really do shine. But like attestation work? and knowledge

486
00:33:46,534 --> 00:33:52,418
work. Man, that is never going to be reliable. It's

487
00:33:52,458 --> 00:33:57,441
just not. Because knowledge work assumes knowledge, and there's not

488
00:33:57,541 --> 00:34:01,904
any. And so, like, the, the, I think, I think

489
00:34:02,085 --> 00:34:04,987
you are just basically, you are like in the wheelhouse.

490
00:34:05,967 --> 00:34:13,092
of what these tools are built for, creativity and verifiable

491
00:34:13,112 --> 00:34:16,594
development work. You can code like crazy now. You can

492
00:34:17,075 --> 00:34:20,957
output tons of cool stuff. And you can have really

493
00:34:20,997 --> 00:34:24,300
reliable creative workflows. And I think those are the two

494
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:27,922
like. Basically, those are the two pinnacles of this technology

495
00:34:27,982 --> 00:34:30,764
and where it really shines. Everything else downstream from that

496
00:34:30,904 --> 00:34:34,026
falls off so fast. And that's what most of society

497
00:34:34,086 --> 00:34:36,628
is left with because there's not – most of society

498
00:34:36,708 --> 00:34:40,531
is not in the creative – you know, the creative

499
00:34:40,591 --> 00:34:45,534
business, the creative side of things. And that's just. You

500
00:34:45,574 --> 00:34:48,656
know, like, it takes... You... I think that's why people

501
00:34:48,676 --> 00:34:52,379
have different experiences with AI at coding agents. I've had

502
00:34:52,439 --> 00:34:58,523
great experiences with them in general. And it's because... If

503
00:34:58,583 --> 00:35:03,446
you already know... how to talk, or excuse me, if

504
00:35:03,486 --> 00:35:06,228
you already know how things are structured, and you do

505
00:35:06,328 --> 00:35:08,790
too, even though you weren't a coder, you understand computers,

506
00:35:08,810 --> 00:35:12,552
you understand networks, you know how these things work. Generally

507
00:35:12,613 --> 00:35:15,374
speaking, you had enough knowledge to where this was a

508
00:35:15,555 --> 00:35:19,417
natural thing for you. And, but you, there's a lot

509
00:35:19,457 --> 00:35:21,359
of people out there who are non coders who try

510
00:35:21,439 --> 00:35:24,601
to vibe code and man, it's just a complete train

511
00:35:24,641 --> 00:35:27,783
wreck. They don't know what to do. I mean, like

512
00:35:27,823 --> 00:35:30,405
they, they're having, they're just, there is just complete garbage

513
00:35:30,465 --> 00:35:33,507
that comes out or it's something that looks good to

514
00:35:33,607 --> 00:35:35,848
them. And on the, in the underside of it's just

515
00:35:35,969 --> 00:35:40,952
rot. So just bringing it back to podcasting, I completely

516
00:35:41,052 --> 00:35:46,255
believe there is a category of podcasts where a TTS

517
00:35:46,856 --> 00:35:53,681
voice is appropriate. um and i'm i'm quite confident that

518
00:35:53,761 --> 00:35:59,204
people will become very accustomed to it Now. I mean,

519
00:35:59,224 --> 00:36:04,188
I have many times I've hit a YouTube video. And

520
00:36:04,228 --> 00:36:07,410
there's a person talking. And it will only be after

521
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:10,412
five minutes that I realize, oh, wait a minute. This

522
00:36:10,692 --> 00:36:15,075
is AI. And the reason why I notice it is

523
00:36:15,095 --> 00:36:17,577
because of the sentence structure and the writing. The writing

524
00:36:17,677 --> 00:36:20,119
is just so obvious. You know, let's dive in. You

525
00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:23,221
know, this isn't your daddy's Oldsmobile. You know, like that

526
00:36:23,281 --> 00:36:29,145
kind of stuff. Uh... But it's not like it's offensive.

527
00:36:31,346 --> 00:36:34,749
And so I'm, you know. I think we're in a

528
00:36:35,009 --> 00:36:43,054
very big moment of exploration and creative. experimentation, and things

529
00:36:43,114 --> 00:36:46,236
will come out of this that will be completely LLM

530
00:36:46,336 --> 00:36:50,459
driven and will be accepted and will be used and

531
00:36:50,539 --> 00:36:55,062
enjoyed. And I'm not going to push back against it.

532
00:36:57,224 --> 00:37:00,806
As you know, I too find the talking robot to

533
00:37:00,886 --> 00:37:03,969
be a parlor trick, and it's because our brains are

534
00:37:04,009 --> 00:37:06,951
trained to think, oh, this person's talking to me, and

535
00:37:07,571 --> 00:37:10,073
I've seen movies and TV shows, and so I'm going

536
00:37:10,093 --> 00:37:12,014
to assume it's all right and real and there's a

537
00:37:12,054 --> 00:37:14,476
real person behind it, which is why I always call

538
00:37:15,116 --> 00:37:18,959
my agents robot, because I don't want to anthropomorphize it.

539
00:37:20,420 --> 00:37:23,162
But I really believe we're going to get to a

540
00:37:23,182 --> 00:37:27,264
place where there will be text-to-speech podcasts that will be

541
00:37:27,324 --> 00:37:30,667
accepted, and people will enjoy them, and they will listen

542
00:37:30,767 --> 00:37:33,869
to them. There's not going to be a no-agenda show

543
00:37:34,029 --> 00:37:38,192
or a podcasting 2.0 where Adam and Dave are interacting

544
00:37:38,272 --> 00:37:41,094
as human beings. I don't think it'll ever get there,

545
00:37:41,114 --> 00:37:45,117
certainly not the LLM route. But other things, yeah, I

546
00:37:45,177 --> 00:37:55,464
think I can see that. against it. I mean, I

547
00:37:55,504 --> 00:38:07,912
sort of do. Why? Because... And it's okay. I'm not

548
00:38:07,932 --> 00:38:09,733
trying to convince you of anything. In fact, I find

549
00:38:09,773 --> 00:38:12,375
it more enjoyable that we disagree. It makes for a

550
00:38:12,395 --> 00:38:19,620
much better podcast. I think that the thing that made

551
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:24,804
podcasting what it is. I don't think it was the

552
00:38:24,844 --> 00:38:30,047
technology. The RSS. Oh, of course not. RSS is not

553
00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:39,033
It could have been anything. The thing that makes Podcasting,

554
00:38:39,113 --> 00:38:45,097
so... drove it to the critical mass that it has

555
00:38:45,578 --> 00:38:51,282
become. was the humanity of it. was the fact that

556
00:38:51,442 --> 00:38:58,186
anybody could do it. Right. And any person could just

557
00:38:58,447 --> 00:39:02,209
fire up a microphone and start talking. Yes, I completely

558
00:39:02,269 --> 00:39:06,952
agree. And when you hear that in your headphones. We

559
00:39:07,092 --> 00:39:10,375
know it's another, we hear the humanity on the other

560
00:39:10,435 --> 00:39:16,119
side. And when the, we can tell. And when you

561
00:39:16,259 --> 00:39:20,482
hear the humanity... on the other side, it makes you

562
00:39:20,602 --> 00:39:23,744
feel like you know that person, just like it did.

563
00:39:24,544 --> 00:39:27,686
When you were... you know, listening to a DJ on

564
00:39:27,746 --> 00:39:31,929
the radio and, you know, in 1987, and you just,

565
00:39:32,210 --> 00:39:33,811
you felt like you could just see them in the

566
00:39:33,851 --> 00:39:37,413
studio and you felt like they, that you knew, you

567
00:39:37,493 --> 00:39:42,376
just knew them. Well, I've always had that opinion, which

568
00:39:42,456 --> 00:39:44,578
is why I've never done video. I thought it was

569
00:39:44,598 --> 00:39:47,280
a huge mistake when radios, in fact, I think radio

570
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,262
stations killed themselves by putting cameras in the studio. Look

571
00:39:51,303 --> 00:39:52,984
at me with my headphones on. Look at me. I'm

572
00:39:53,184 --> 00:39:54,765
pushing all the buttons. Look at me. Look at I'm

573
00:39:54,845 --> 00:39:57,267
so cool. Look at this. I thought that was a

574
00:39:57,307 --> 00:39:59,608
big mistake because you lost the theater of the mind.

575
00:40:00,340 --> 00:40:05,803
And podcasting, I've enjoyed podcasting for interviews. I've enjoyed them

576
00:40:05,903 --> 00:40:11,107
for hearing the humanity of someone, of hearing different ideas

577
00:40:11,267 --> 00:40:15,270
and debates. I've done things like sound seeing tours, we

578
00:40:15,350 --> 00:40:18,552
used to call them, just walking around the street. So

579
00:40:19,132 --> 00:40:21,294
that is very much a theater of the mind. But

580
00:40:21,314 --> 00:40:26,938
it is also an information delivery system where people listen

581
00:40:27,018 --> 00:40:31,981
to podcasts instead of reading. Audiobooks the same conversation we

582
00:40:32,041 --> 00:40:36,464
had by the way with audiobooks the same conversation. Oh

583
00:40:36,564 --> 00:40:39,086
No, you can't have all you kids audiobooks is cheating.

584
00:40:39,146 --> 00:40:44,390
That's not real reading So podcasting is a lot of

585
00:40:44,410 --> 00:40:48,813
things. And it is also an information delivery system. And,

586
00:40:48,853 --> 00:40:52,555
you know, which is good and bad. I've always said

587
00:40:52,575 --> 00:40:54,717
to people, don't speed it up because you're going to

588
00:40:54,777 --> 00:40:57,699
become very frustrated with the human beings in your life

589
00:40:57,799 --> 00:41:00,601
around you because they're not talking fast enough. But people

590
00:41:00,661 --> 00:41:02,382
do that because they want more information, feed more into

591
00:41:02,422 --> 00:41:06,945
my head. But just as a, I listen to. Spurlock

592
00:41:07,045 --> 00:41:11,488
posted in an Atlantic article this morning. I read part

593
00:41:11,568 --> 00:41:16,291
of it. What was it about? I didn't get very

594
00:41:16,351 --> 00:41:19,734
far, but I started reading. Oh, it was about AGI

595
00:41:19,854 --> 00:41:22,436
and LLMs. It's never going to be the right way.

596
00:41:22,456 --> 00:41:25,178
It's never going to work. And I was cleaning out

597
00:41:25,198 --> 00:41:28,360
the dishwasher, which is typically my podcast listening time. And

598
00:41:28,420 --> 00:41:33,463
I saw, oh, there's a 10-minute text-to-speech version of it

599
00:41:33,603 --> 00:41:35,665
in the player. And I hit the player. And I

600
00:41:35,745 --> 00:41:39,567
immediately could tell it was actually a bit. surprisingly, is

601
00:41:39,607 --> 00:41:43,250
something, some service called the News Voice Service or whatever.

602
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:45,752
I'm like, wow, you guys really suck if anyone's paying

603
00:41:45,812 --> 00:41:48,994
for that because I got better TTS voices than this.

604
00:41:49,714 --> 00:41:51,856
But it gave me the information while I was cleaning

605
00:41:51,896 --> 00:41:53,897
out the dishwasher in 10 minutes and I was okay

606
00:41:53,977 --> 00:41:55,518
with it. And I had to sit down and say,

607
00:41:56,039 --> 00:41:58,040
why was I okay with it? Well, I just wanted

608
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,662
to get the information. I wanted to multitask and it

609
00:42:00,722 --> 00:42:02,703
worked okay for me and I wasn't mad about it.

610
00:42:03,764 --> 00:42:08,407
So, I'm just saying that... I want to force myself

611
00:42:08,487 --> 00:42:11,889
to be more open and podcasting is not just for

612
00:42:11,969 --> 00:42:15,972
humans. It's not just for this type of show. And

613
00:42:16,032 --> 00:42:21,016
it's certainly not just for advertising, which is pretty much

614
00:42:21,036 --> 00:42:25,318
all news about podcasting is only about how long is

615
00:42:25,419 --> 00:42:30,002
a play and value for value, streaming sats is dead

616
00:42:30,102 --> 00:42:33,884
and all these different things. The money is the least

617
00:42:34,024 --> 00:42:38,848
interesting part of it to me. Agree. I mean, it's

618
00:42:38,848 --> 00:42:43,151
the least interesting part to me as well. And... I

619
00:42:43,231 --> 00:42:50,456
mean, the... podcasting. If we're talking about podcasting as a

620
00:42:50,516 --> 00:42:57,521
whole, then... I think that podcast... I also have no

621
00:42:57,621 --> 00:43:00,402
problem just like using the screen reader thing built into

622
00:43:00,463 --> 00:43:03,965
Mobile Safari to just read the article. I have no

623
00:43:04,045 --> 00:43:09,909
problem with that because I know what I'm doing. I've

624
00:43:09,969 --> 00:43:13,551
taken the- I've made the choice to go into... A

625
00:43:13,611 --> 00:43:20,616
mode. where I have set the context for the experience

626
00:43:20,696 --> 00:43:32,244
I'm having. If podcasting in general, overall... comes dominated. Bye.

627
00:43:33,545 --> 00:43:42,511
generated content. It is going to cheapen... and turn sentiment

628
00:43:42,631 --> 00:43:49,096
against podcasting negative on the whole. I completely disagree. Podcasting

629
00:43:49,176 --> 00:43:55,480
is not like one thing. I mean... There's no recommendation

630
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,163
engine. You hear about a podcast from someone. This is

631
00:43:59,182 --> 00:44:01,484
what I've always said. You hear about a podcast from

632
00:44:01,564 --> 00:44:04,686
someone. Oh, okay, I'll go listen to that podcast. Now,

633
00:44:04,746 --> 00:44:07,388
if you're just toodling around and searching for stuff and

634
00:44:07,408 --> 00:44:10,470
you pop up against something, oh, it's an AI voice.

635
00:44:10,490 --> 00:44:12,011
You may like it or you may not like it.

636
00:44:12,271 --> 00:44:16,414
But it's not overshadowing anything. This is the part I

637
00:44:16,474 --> 00:44:19,536
disagree with. But this is the problem. But like, think

638
00:44:19,616 --> 00:44:27,522
about... What was that company? The big slop company that...

639
00:44:28,583 --> 00:44:34,226
Inception Point AI. Inception Point. They were shooting shows to

640
00:44:34,286 --> 00:44:38,289
the top of the charts in Spotify's podcast app. And

641
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:42,572
as people see things, they go into podcasts. They go

642
00:44:42,732 --> 00:44:45,554
into the podcast section on Spotify or whatever or Apple

643
00:44:45,594 --> 00:44:48,316
Podcasts. And these things are trending at the top of

644
00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:50,598
the list. And they hit it. And it's just like

645
00:44:50,658 --> 00:44:54,780
some half-assed slop. Okay, but right there. Already, I don't

646
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,202
believe, and I've said this, I don't believe in charts

647
00:44:57,302 --> 00:45:01,645
for podcasting. I don't believe in awards for podcasting. It's

648
00:45:01,725 --> 00:45:04,707
dumb. But because you don't believe in it doesn't mean

649
00:45:04,767 --> 00:45:07,129
that it's not having an effect. And because most people's

650
00:45:07,129 --> 00:45:10,711
interaction with podcasts, is with something like Apple Podcasts. Oh,

651
00:45:10,711 --> 00:45:13,994
I completely disagree that that's how people find their podcasts.

652
00:45:14,474 --> 00:45:16,815
I'm not saying that's how they find them. I'm saying

653
00:45:17,616 --> 00:45:21,699
that is their vision of what podcasting is. Right. Okay.

654
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,501
But then that's why other podcast apps can do a

655
00:45:25,561 --> 00:45:29,984
better job. We're not beholden to Apple. This is the

656
00:45:30,024 --> 00:45:32,066
loop that I want us to get out of. You

657
00:45:32,066 --> 00:45:34,447
know, Apple's doing this, so we've got to do this.

658
00:45:34,808 --> 00:45:37,970
Who gives a shit? I don't care. I tell my

659
00:45:38,070 --> 00:45:41,532
listeners to use a modern podcast app. Turns out a

660
00:45:41,592 --> 00:45:44,875
lot of them have been drawn to Podverse and Podcast

661
00:45:44,935 --> 00:45:51,439
Guru. And they get a different experience. We're not slaves

662
00:45:51,499 --> 00:45:55,482
to Apple because they want to surface all of the

663
00:45:55,562 --> 00:45:58,564
Charlie Kirk murder mysteries that are all from Inception Point

664
00:45:58,664 --> 00:46:02,987
AI. That's not going to kill podcasting. That'll kill Apple

665
00:46:03,027 --> 00:46:09,091
podcasting. Okay, let me throw this at you. Jim Daly

666
00:46:09,692 --> 00:46:13,134
announced his retirement, right? From Focus on the Family. Huge

667
00:46:13,234 --> 00:46:17,717
podcast. Lots of downloads. They're a big player in the

668
00:46:17,777 --> 00:46:22,440
industry. They announced that they're starting a transition for the

669
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,562
next person who's going to replace him. Mm-hmm. What if

670
00:46:25,602 --> 00:46:29,185
they decided to just do AI? Just do AI voices.

671
00:46:31,386 --> 00:46:37,390
Well, what if they did? They would lose two-thirds of

672
00:46:37,390 --> 00:46:40,593
their listenership. Of course they would. And I'm saying, and

673
00:46:40,693 --> 00:46:45,076
that's my point. My point is that knowing that something

674
00:46:45,096 --> 00:46:50,719
is AI. that you're not expecting it to be or

675
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,642
that you did not choose When AI is given to

676
00:46:54,742 --> 00:46:58,565
you rather than you setting it up and choosing it

677
00:46:58,605 --> 00:47:03,148
yourself. Okay, but this... You feel at its mercy rather

678
00:47:03,208 --> 00:47:05,449
than being in control of it. Okay, but that's... Then

679
00:47:05,570 --> 00:47:09,592
I would go look for a different podcast about... family

680
00:47:09,833 --> 00:47:15,196
issues and to to serve an existing audience with a

681
00:47:15,316 --> 00:47:19,339
different type of uh of voice that's just a dumb

682
00:47:19,459 --> 00:47:22,041
idea i mean that's that's the same as saying well

683
00:47:22,041 --> 00:47:24,362
what if i just replaced john and adam on no

684
00:47:24,462 --> 00:47:26,564
agenda with ai voice of course people would run away

685
00:47:26,644 --> 00:47:29,866
it's not going to be the same thing No, what

686
00:47:30,046 --> 00:47:33,048
I'm saying is... I think I want to say is

687
00:47:33,389 --> 00:47:39,673
subtly different. What I'm talking about is... that a show

688
00:47:41,474 --> 00:47:45,637
If you had an equivalent show of AI voices. and

689
00:47:45,977 --> 00:47:47,998
on one side, and a Jim Daley focus on the

690
00:47:48,019 --> 00:47:52,001
family, human show on the other side, the AI show

691
00:47:52,061 --> 00:47:57,245
would just never, it would just never. match up exactly

692
00:47:57,265 --> 00:47:59,386
it would never make it well exactly but that but

693
00:47:59,406 --> 00:48:01,928
that's not the that's not what i'm talking about of

694
00:48:02,008 --> 00:48:05,350
course it'll never make it it doesn't mean that there's

695
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:09,453
not place okay so i created a new service for

696
00:48:09,773 --> 00:48:13,616
for focus for focus live and it's three different voices

697
00:48:13,676 --> 00:48:17,118
they're ai uh there's a there's a format that i

698
00:48:17,218 --> 00:48:20,581
put in place for it and it's i don't have

699
00:48:20,601 --> 00:48:24,563
them saying hey i'm i'm bob uh bob thingamadig here's

700
00:48:24,623 --> 00:48:28,326
the news i just say Meow. Actually, as a joke,

701
00:48:28,406 --> 00:48:30,047
I say, here's the news at this hour, because I

702
00:48:30,067 --> 00:48:33,730
know that that's an urgency thing that news uses. And

703
00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:35,811
you've heard it. You've listened to it. You realize it's

704
00:48:35,891 --> 00:48:38,153
AI. Are you turned off by it? Do you go,

705
00:48:38,173 --> 00:48:41,735
oh, that's AI. I can't listen to this? No, because

706
00:48:41,835 --> 00:48:43,837
it's appropriate. No, but that was never my point. No,

707
00:48:43,897 --> 00:48:47,279
but it's appropriate for the format and for the information

708
00:48:47,299 --> 00:48:50,821
that's being delivered. It's not appropriate for a focus on

709
00:48:50,881 --> 00:48:53,183
the family with Jim Daly. It's just not appropriate. It's

710
00:48:53,183 --> 00:48:59,447
two different things. one over the other because one is

711
00:48:59,507 --> 00:49:04,351
human and one isn't. I'm not saying that either. You

712
00:49:04,431 --> 00:49:07,193
said something that I agree with. It's appropriate for the

713
00:49:07,293 --> 00:49:10,375
information as it's being delivered. And I'm saying that podcasting...

714
00:49:11,615 --> 00:49:19,141
podcasting, just as a general idea. is not appropriate. 4.

715
00:49:20,021 --> 00:49:25,465
synthetic. machine generated content. That's what I'm saying. I'm just

716
00:49:25,505 --> 00:49:30,969
going to disagree. As an information delivery system, it can

717
00:49:31,109 --> 00:49:36,613
be highly appropriate. But you're making podcasting into something that

718
00:49:36,653 --> 00:49:39,154
it started out as when you had the Rock and

719
00:49:39,174 --> 00:49:41,736
Roll Geek Show and Don and Drew and the Daily

720
00:49:41,836 --> 00:49:46,179
Source Code and weird people talking about weird stuff and

721
00:49:46,579 --> 00:49:51,803
long soliloquies. Sure. And that won't go away, but it

722
00:49:51,883 --> 00:49:57,006
also won't get killed by a different type of show.

723
00:49:57,927 --> 00:49:59,989
that delivers information.

724
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:05,583
that may be completely appropriate to be computer generated. I

725
00:50:05,723 --> 00:50:07,765
just feel you. I want to be open to it.

726
00:50:08,305 --> 00:50:11,367
It's the same as I can listen to an audio

727
00:50:11,487 --> 00:50:15,990
book that's generated by an LLM. I can listen to

728
00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:20,834
it. It doesn't kill me that much. You know. It's

729
00:50:20,874 --> 00:50:24,256
just... I don't want to be against it just because

730
00:50:24,456 --> 00:50:32,282
it's there. Well... I see. You've had such success with

731
00:50:32,382 --> 00:50:36,905
it. And what I'm saying is... That success can just

732
00:50:36,985 --> 00:50:42,088
stand on its own. The success that you've had, which

733
00:50:42,128 --> 00:50:46,071
has been incredible. does not have to extend into the

734
00:50:46,231 --> 00:50:51,795
other uses of it. Like people can, just because you've

735
00:50:51,835 --> 00:50:56,278
had success in your workflow and in your product. Building.

736
00:50:57,659 --> 00:51:01,081
with it doesn't mean that it also has to be

737
00:51:01,281 --> 00:51:06,945
okay. for content. to be generated by it in places

738
00:51:06,985 --> 00:51:13,049
where it's not appropriate. But what's appropriate? This is my

739
00:51:13,149 --> 00:51:16,892
entire point. What is appropriate is not up to me.

740
00:51:18,013 --> 00:51:21,735
No, it's completely subjective. And I'm saying that it's completely

741
00:51:21,795 --> 00:51:28,580
subjective, but I'm saying even when dealing with subjectiveness. There

742
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:34,004
are... You can average the subjectiveness across a large body

743
00:51:34,084 --> 00:51:37,506
of people and come to some conclusions. And what I'm

744
00:51:37,566 --> 00:51:40,988
saying, like, yes, it is subjective. One person may not

745
00:51:41,048 --> 00:51:44,130
like this type of content. Another person might. But if

746
00:51:44,190 --> 00:51:46,292
you step back and look at things as a whole.

747
00:51:47,012 --> 00:51:50,395
You'll see that there are patterns and there are things

748
00:51:50,955 --> 00:51:55,518
that generally most people are turned off by. And if...

749
00:51:56,939 --> 00:52:01,702
synthetic voices pretending to be real or synthetic voices talking

750
00:52:01,782 --> 00:52:05,485
about matters, and this is why I brought up Focus

751
00:52:05,505 --> 00:52:10,388
on the Family. I want, if I'm talking about... about.

752
00:52:11,129 --> 00:52:18,114
space. and ethics and family and politics. I want a

753
00:52:18,194 --> 00:52:20,936
human talking to me about this. I know you. I'm

754
00:52:21,016 --> 00:52:24,778
not disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm saying that I

755
00:52:24,838 --> 00:52:26,699
don't want to be in a place where I'm trying

756
00:52:26,739 --> 00:52:29,922
to stop something that may be unstoppable. Let's take faith

757
00:52:30,042 --> 00:52:35,345
specifically as an example. And I hate this example, but

758
00:52:35,706 --> 00:52:39,929
I cannot deny that it's happening. People are... pouring their

759
00:52:39,989 --> 00:52:45,472
hearts out into glue.com AI chatbots on church websites because

760
00:52:45,512 --> 00:52:48,694
they feel more comfortable talking to that than to their

761
00:52:48,735 --> 00:52:53,438
pastor. I think it's bad, and I think that... These

762
00:52:53,518 --> 00:52:58,361
people need to be exposed to humans. And I certainly

763
00:52:58,381 --> 00:53:01,383
don't think that a church should be promoting this. But

764
00:53:01,403 --> 00:53:05,966
that doesn't mean that it's not happening. And it doesn't

765
00:53:05,986 --> 00:53:10,209
mean that someone may not find benefit from it. I

766
00:53:10,369 --> 00:53:13,331
personally don't want it. I personally don't like it. But

767
00:53:13,531 --> 00:53:20,156
when we're making decisions and building, funny enough, AI models

768
00:53:20,416 --> 00:53:25,059
and putting weights into them to remove all AI voices.

769
00:53:25,740 --> 00:53:30,103
I just want to question The validity and who gets

770
00:53:30,163 --> 00:53:33,725
to make decisions based upon that and for what reasons.

771
00:53:34,786 --> 00:53:38,208
because there can be very appropriate reasons. And even if

772
00:53:38,308 --> 00:53:42,051
it's 1% of people who want to hear 1% of

773
00:53:42,651 --> 00:53:47,655
synthetic voices for 1% of the type of content, I

774
00:53:47,815 --> 00:53:58,262
don't necessarily want to give them a no. That's... I

775
00:53:58,362 --> 00:54:01,444
understand where you're coming from. And we cannot ignore that

776
00:54:01,524 --> 00:54:04,826
the hatred you have to the work slop and corporate

777
00:54:04,966 --> 00:54:09,690
AI incessant, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, that

778
00:54:09,730 --> 00:54:15,554
that doesn't play into it. It absolutely does. It absolutely

779
00:54:15,614 --> 00:54:19,837
does. And we're like fighting the machine. Because we are.

780
00:54:19,857 --> 00:54:21,518
We're kind of like, oh, we're fighting the machine. We're

781
00:54:21,558 --> 00:54:24,480
fighting this, and this is horrible. And, you know, I've

782
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,962
listened to Inception Point AI shows. I'm like, meh, it's

783
00:54:28,002 --> 00:54:32,005
not for me. But that's more because the writing is

784
00:54:32,065 --> 00:54:34,106
just so crap. You know, the voice, it's not the

785
00:54:34,186 --> 00:54:37,929
voice that bothers me. It's that there's no humanity in

786
00:54:37,969 --> 00:54:40,971
the writing. And that's always the giveaway, and I don't

787
00:54:41,031 --> 00:54:45,694
see that LLMs will, ever really they just haven't proven

788
00:54:45,754 --> 00:54:48,076
it yet that they can get to a place where

789
00:54:48,116 --> 00:54:51,038
the writing is appropriate and it doesn't bug me me

790
00:54:51,258 --> 00:54:54,580
personally but the voice is the least is the least

791
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:58,803
offensive thing If it's just about information I want to

792
00:54:58,843 --> 00:55:01,265
get. I'm not looking for a personality. I'm not looking

793
00:55:01,305 --> 00:55:04,827
for community. I'm just looking for some information about one

794
00:55:05,168 --> 00:55:13,113
particular thing, and this audio has it. boardroom. Is Gripen

795
00:55:13,173 --> 00:55:14,754
at us talking about AI? But I can tell you

796
00:55:14,814 --> 00:55:17,816
this. We're talking about podcasting. We're not talking about AI.

797
00:55:18,056 --> 00:55:21,198
This is about the future of podcasting, literally what we're

798
00:55:21,258 --> 00:55:27,283
supposed to be doing. And you will not hear a

799
00:55:27,323 --> 00:55:32,706
discussion like this. Anywhere else that I'm aware of where

800
00:55:32,766 --> 00:55:38,891
people are. In in transparent disagreement about AI. It's usually,

801
00:55:38,931 --> 00:55:42,653
it's either AI is awesome and I love it and

802
00:55:42,753 --> 00:55:44,554
it's going to be the best thing ever or it's

803
00:55:44,895 --> 00:55:46,576
AI is the worst thing and it's going to kill

804
00:55:46,596 --> 00:55:49,558
everybody and destroy the world. You only get two sides.

805
00:55:50,098 --> 00:55:55,382
You won't hear disagreements. Exactly. You won't hear honest disagreements.

806
00:55:55,582 --> 00:56:01,066
Exactly. Let's talk about something else because I think we've...

807
00:56:01,946 --> 00:56:04,588
We've done this. Can we talk about lightning for a

808
00:56:04,628 --> 00:56:08,411
second? Yes, absolutely. That's a good idea because I have

809
00:56:08,451 --> 00:56:12,754
some thoughts about that. Because voltage is... bailing out on

810
00:56:12,774 --> 00:56:26,283
individual. Yeah. Um... nodes and they're going enterprise only. I

811
00:56:26,363 --> 00:56:29,805
mean... We have to talk about this in a couple

812
00:56:29,845 --> 00:56:37,350
of ways. Our income... from lightning has dwindled down to

813
00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:41,193
very little. And we're not the only ones. Yeah, from

814
00:56:41,273 --> 00:56:47,477
Podcast Index. We went from about... $50 a week down

815
00:56:47,597 --> 00:56:54,802
to... seven If that. Let me actually go look. And

816
00:56:55,022 --> 00:56:59,746
there's a couple of reasons for that. The obvious one.

817
00:57:00,806 --> 00:57:06,250
is the change in, uh, in protocols. The one that

818
00:57:06,290 --> 00:57:10,833
cannot be ignored is the price of Bitcoin. people tend

819
00:57:10,913 --> 00:57:13,895
to hang on to their sats if they've spent more

820
00:57:13,935 --> 00:57:16,697
than they're worth right now or if they're buying because

821
00:57:16,717 --> 00:57:18,819
they think it'll go up in value. I mean, that

822
00:57:18,899 --> 00:57:25,083
cannot be ignored. um but I think where you're going

823
00:57:25,123 --> 00:57:29,646
with this is that this centralizes lightning, which. you know,

824
00:57:29,786 --> 00:57:34,329
podcasting 2.0 and value for value, boosts and streaming payments.

825
00:57:35,310 --> 00:57:39,773
was always centralized. It was centralized from day one. And

826
00:57:39,853 --> 00:57:46,898
when we decentralize is when it fell apart. Uh, the...

827
00:57:47,918 --> 00:57:52,001
The most current for last week. Our total income on

828
00:57:52,041 --> 00:57:59,446
the index was $11.56. Mm-hmm. So that's- We're up! We're

829
00:57:59,486 --> 00:58:09,373
trending. Hockey stick. Hockey stick. So the monthly income. to

830
00:58:09,453 --> 00:58:27,485
the podcast index node in... June See? you $559. Not

831
00:58:27,525 --> 00:58:36,091
from lightning. way. No. That's way too much. No way.

832
00:58:37,873 --> 00:58:48,119
$50 maybe. Oh, that's from last year. We're down 10x.

833
00:58:50,101 --> 00:58:53,903
Okay, yeah, because based on the weekly... You're looking at

834
00:58:53,963 --> 00:58:57,046
what? 50 bucks? Yeah. For the month? Yeah, 50 bucks.

835
00:58:57,066 --> 00:58:59,727
So it's like 50 bucks for the month. Yeah, that

836
00:58:59,807 --> 00:59:02,329
monthly of last year was probably just single boost donors.

837
00:59:02,910 --> 00:59:08,473
But the weekly is, yeah, it's about 50 bucks a

838
00:59:08,553 --> 00:59:12,016
month. Yeah. Well, we're paying $240 a month for our

839
00:59:12,056 --> 00:59:16,939
lightning node at Voltage. Yes. That's not, that's not, we

840
00:59:16,979 --> 00:59:19,161
can't justify it. Is that on my credit card? I

841
00:59:19,261 --> 00:59:22,303
think I'm paying for that. You're paying, yes, yes, you're

842
00:59:22,343 --> 00:59:28,587
paying for that. 240 a month. Holy crap. That's a

843
00:59:28,647 --> 00:59:32,590
lot. We have to have a real discussion about whether

844
00:59:32,650 --> 00:59:35,912
we continue with this note or not because that's not

845
00:59:36,052 --> 00:59:40,936
sustainable. And we're about to have to upgrade the main

846
00:59:41,016 --> 00:59:47,640
podcast index database to the next higher size up. Wait,

847
00:59:47,860 --> 00:59:51,543
we... Well, let's look at the Genesis for a second.

848
00:59:52,443 --> 00:59:54,225
I'm going to go back to the genesis of this,

849
00:59:54,905 --> 00:59:59,448
because I've been thinking about this a lot. the um

850
01:00:00,420 --> 01:00:04,162
The genesis of value for value streaming payments goes back

851
01:00:04,282 --> 01:00:09,586
to the genesis of Podcast Index. Podcastindex.org was created when

852
01:00:09,726 --> 01:00:14,289
Apple decided to de-platform, remove from its database several podcasts,

853
01:00:14,810 --> 01:00:18,592
particularly during COVID. And it's irrelevant who they were. It

854
01:00:18,852 --> 01:00:23,496
doesn't matter. Apple was making decisions, which we're doing now

855
01:00:23,556 --> 01:00:26,538
too in an interesting way. But Apple was making decisions.

856
01:00:27,398 --> 01:00:30,420
And I called you and said, hey, since when are

857
01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:33,722
these guys the boss of podcasting? Because everybody was talking

858
01:00:33,762 --> 01:00:39,206
to their database, for lack of a better word, for

859
01:00:39,306 --> 01:00:41,808
all of the independent apps. And they were kind of

860
01:00:41,808 --> 01:00:43,829
the on-ramp to podcasting. I said, well, why don't we

861
01:00:43,829 --> 01:00:46,431
just build an alternative and we'll run it value for

862
01:00:46,491 --> 01:00:49,873
value. i.e. people who want to use this, they'll either

863
01:00:49,873 --> 01:00:51,855
support it or they won't, and it lives or dies

864
01:00:51,955 --> 01:00:57,379
by the support. And we have, quite honestly, 70% of

865
01:00:57,639 --> 01:01:03,583
our survival rate is based on hosting companies who send

866
01:01:03,663 --> 01:01:09,067
us PayPal very graciously every single month. And the 30%

867
01:01:09,847 --> 01:01:13,049
is very important to me, is the sustaining people who

868
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:18,053
send us $5 or $10 or $7.50. You know, that's

869
01:01:18,093 --> 01:01:20,935
how value for value works. As a part of that...

870
01:01:21,955 --> 01:01:24,877
I suggested to you that we come, and I think,

871
01:01:24,917 --> 01:01:27,079
what was it? What was the name of the company?

872
01:01:27,299 --> 01:01:31,622
Cat something. What was it? The guy out in California.

873
01:01:31,802 --> 01:01:33,803
What was the initial nodes we were using when we

874
01:01:33,803 --> 01:01:37,706
were first testing it out? Sphinx. Cat. Sphinx. Cat. You

875
01:01:37,726 --> 01:01:40,368
were close. You were in the ballpark. That's how my

876
01:01:40,448 --> 01:01:46,352
brain works. Cat. Category error. Sphinx. Exactly. I said, look

877
01:01:46,412 --> 01:01:51,055
at this, because the idea was you're getting MP3 and

878
01:01:51,135 --> 01:01:54,297
bits and bytes in, and you're sending money out with

879
01:01:54,337 --> 01:01:57,500
this program. Well, money was very exciting, and it was

880
01:01:57,740 --> 01:02:01,802
partially, because PayPal was also, de-platforming people. I was like,

881
01:02:01,842 --> 01:02:08,207
what a great way to have independent value flow and

882
01:02:08,247 --> 01:02:12,930
have it automatic. And it caught some steam and we

883
01:02:13,010 --> 01:02:16,432
started to build on it. And then we had LNPAY,

884
01:02:16,633 --> 01:02:21,956
I think it was. Yes, LN Pay. LN Pay. And

885
01:02:21,976 --> 01:02:26,780
that centralized it, and everybody had something to work on.

886
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,581
And then, you know, what's the guy's name at LN

887
01:02:29,641 --> 01:02:36,086
Pay? Good guy. Charlie? Doug? Tim? Tim. Tim. Yeah, Tim

888
01:02:36,226 --> 01:02:38,768
said, hey, man, you know, and we wound up paying

889
01:02:38,828 --> 01:02:42,350
for his infrastructure every single month to keep it alive.

890
01:02:42,430 --> 01:02:44,351
And then he said, I really can't do this anymore.

891
01:02:44,892 --> 01:02:46,773
And then Albie came along, and so we went from

892
01:02:46,913 --> 01:02:51,436
centralized on Sphinx, centralized on on LMPay, centralized on Albi.

893
01:02:51,496 --> 01:02:53,558
Then Albi said, well, we can't do this anymore for

894
01:02:53,638 --> 01:02:58,161
legal reasons. And then we went, okay, we'll decentralize. And

895
01:02:58,321 --> 01:03:01,303
it became very complicated because people need nodes that are

896
01:03:01,483 --> 01:03:05,326
up all the time. And we all tried Uncle Jim

897
01:03:05,466 --> 01:03:08,248
nodes and all kinds of different things. And that didn't

898
01:03:08,288 --> 01:03:10,689
really work. And then we said, okay, well, maybe the

899
01:03:10,730 --> 01:03:13,531
way is to switch to this other protocol that is

900
01:03:13,591 --> 01:03:16,894
not KeySend. And we had a very clear split in

901
01:03:16,954 --> 01:03:20,736
the community, very clear. At this point, it became a

902
01:03:22,377 --> 01:03:28,261
philosophical Bitcoin versus value for value, what it was really

903
01:03:28,362 --> 01:03:31,464
about, and it became Bitcoiners who said, well, we don't

904
01:03:31,504 --> 01:03:34,566
want this, and we want this, and that's centralized. But

905
01:03:34,586 --> 01:03:40,029
the whole thing had always been centralized. And that, and

906
01:03:40,090 --> 01:03:45,833
it fell apart. Honestly, going back to the genesis of

907
01:03:45,934 --> 01:03:51,818
Value for Value, the new international lifestyle. That system still

908
01:03:52,018 --> 01:03:57,842
exists today. It may just not work for Lightning and

909
01:03:57,902 --> 01:04:05,527
payments over Lightning because of the challenges. of wallets and

910
01:04:05,607 --> 01:04:09,349
connecting wallets and the challenges of people not wanting to

911
01:04:09,449 --> 01:04:13,612
have centralized systems and the challenges of people not understanding

912
01:04:13,652 --> 01:04:16,354
what Bitcoin is and not want to transfer money into

913
01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:21,858
a wallet. There's so many hurdles to this. I think

914
01:04:21,858 --> 01:04:24,280
there was another split that came along, which is when

915
01:04:24,420 --> 01:04:27,382
Noster was jumping in and like, hey, we should be

916
01:04:27,462 --> 01:04:31,364
doing podcasting and all this stuff. And then Fountain made

917
01:04:31,445 --> 01:04:35,347
decisions to, you know, add zaps. And so it became

918
01:04:35,427 --> 01:04:38,289
convoluted. And I personally think it's fallen apart. And I

919
01:04:38,449 --> 01:04:41,672
don't know if it can be resurrected. I don't know

920
01:04:41,711 --> 01:04:49,056
if it can either. I don't, I mean. I'm starting

921
01:04:49,097 --> 01:04:56,802
to see all of lightning as... as... failing to live

922
01:04:56,902 --> 01:05:01,165
up to its promise. I mean, Fountain is the best

923
01:05:01,265 --> 01:05:05,528
example of this. Look at the hoops that Oscar had

924
01:05:05,588 --> 01:05:08,550
to jump through to make that thing work. Yeah. I

925
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:14,454
mean, with all the KYC and AML and Zebedee having

926
01:05:14,494 --> 01:05:19,077
to run, you know, all this, you know, KYC AML

927
01:05:19,137 --> 01:05:24,381
stuff and... I'm sure it's costing him a fortune. And

928
01:05:25,061 --> 01:05:29,784
technically is a challenge. Like, it is, that is not

929
01:05:29,824 --> 01:05:33,367
the promise that Lightning said it was. Lightning said it

930
01:05:33,427 --> 01:05:38,750
was going to be... the decentralized. low or you know

931
01:05:38,850 --> 01:05:46,856
zero or low fee Bitcoin Mechanism Right. That anybody could

932
01:05:46,896 --> 01:05:52,300
risk self-sovereignty. Bull crap is what I'm saying because that

933
01:05:52,380 --> 01:05:59,264
is not the case. Bull crap. Bull crap. It is.

934
01:05:59,344 --> 01:06:02,046
We're like Tourette's on this show today. Bull crap. Bull

935
01:06:02,066 --> 01:06:08,971
crap. I mean abroad. A broad embrace of KeySend could

936
01:06:09,031 --> 01:06:14,435
have changed the course of all that. Maybe. KeySend. Well,

937
01:06:15,015 --> 01:06:19,558
we talked to the kid over there at Strike. What's

938
01:06:19,598 --> 01:06:24,802
his name? strike yeah the mall mallers yeah we talked

939
01:06:24,822 --> 01:06:28,504
to him early on this arrogant piece of crap He

940
01:06:28,544 --> 01:06:32,607
really is. Arrogant, arrogant mofo. Look at me sitting in

941
01:06:32,687 --> 01:06:39,512
my closet with no clothes in my closet. And we

942
01:06:39,592 --> 01:06:41,974
said, hey, man, you could really change the game if

943
01:06:42,014 --> 01:06:44,655
you supported KeySend. Well, he had no intention of doing

944
01:06:44,695 --> 01:06:49,018
that. He did not care. That was the moment I

945
01:06:49,098 --> 01:06:52,941
think when... You know, that would have, you know, because

946
01:06:52,981 --> 01:06:56,443
he's got, look, I use Strike. He's got momentum with

947
01:06:56,503 --> 01:07:00,206
that thing. And people are using it. and, you know,

948
01:07:00,226 --> 01:07:02,287
it's the direct connection to the bank accounts and all

949
01:07:02,347 --> 01:07:04,349
that stuff. It's still centralized. It has nothing to do

950
01:07:04,389 --> 01:07:08,171
with Sovereign. But we also weren't necessarily... We didn't set

951
01:07:08,251 --> 01:07:10,473
out for, oh, it's got to be sovereign. That's when

952
01:07:10,513 --> 01:07:13,195
all the Bitcoin stuff, we were just like, we were

953
01:07:13,255 --> 01:07:16,057
looking at the functionality of it and religion came in.

954
01:07:17,157 --> 01:07:21,080
Well, so podcasting – and James says this all the

955
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:25,323
time. Well, you can send bank-to-bank transfers in Australia with

956
01:07:25,883 --> 01:07:28,525
zero fee through an API. That's fine, but that's not

957
01:07:28,545 --> 01:07:31,968
the way podcasting works. Podcasting works across borders. And so

958
01:07:32,248 --> 01:07:35,850
anything that doesn't work, low fee or zero fee with

959
01:07:35,950 --> 01:07:39,193
instantaneous transfer, anything that doesn't work that way across international

960
01:07:39,253 --> 01:07:43,355
borders will not function properly for podcasting. Well, hold on.

961
01:07:43,676 --> 01:07:46,177
And so that's what lightning was supposed to be. Yes,

962
01:07:46,277 --> 01:07:52,862
for streaming. payments. Absolutely true. For streaming payments, It doesn't

963
01:07:52,862 --> 01:07:56,444
work for boosts either because international payments are super expensive.

964
01:07:58,826 --> 01:08:03,629
What do you mean? What doesn't work for boosts? internet

965
01:08:03,689 --> 01:08:07,992
like uh you know, like go. Having something that's got

966
01:08:08,052 --> 01:08:10,654
a bunch of fees on it. Well, that's not true.

967
01:08:11,675 --> 01:08:15,037
You mean for streaming sites or for boosts? For boosts.

968
01:08:15,137 --> 01:08:19,100
No, that's not true. I mean, I live from PayPal

969
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:22,442
and Stripe boosts, for lack of a better term. And

970
01:08:22,522 --> 01:08:28,326
people even send me money with the fees. All I

971
01:08:28,386 --> 01:08:34,150
know is I tried to send, uh... um Kyron, some

972
01:08:34,190 --> 01:08:38,533
money through PayPal. to an Australian bank and the fees

973
01:08:38,573 --> 01:08:43,756
were like 20%. Well, to an Australian bank, not to

974
01:08:44,697 --> 01:08:48,820
an Australian PayPal. Well, no, it was to his PayPal,

975
01:08:48,900 --> 01:08:50,641
but it was connected to his bank on the back

976
01:08:50,761 --> 01:08:56,945
end. Well, that doesn't sound right because I get PayPals

977
01:08:57,046 --> 01:09:01,949
from Australia, New Zealand, Japan. We get Stripe from Argentina,

978
01:09:02,129 --> 01:09:05,852
from France. We get payments from all over the world,

979
01:09:06,372 --> 01:09:12,336
and the fees are about 3%. So I don't know

980
01:09:12,356 --> 01:09:17,119
what happened there. Well, see, what my research turned up

981
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:21,722
one time was that like Australia, they use international transfer

982
01:09:21,842 --> 01:09:27,686
fees to fund. free internal transfers. They make it up

983
01:09:27,806 --> 01:09:30,989
on the other side. So they have really high, they

984
01:09:31,029 --> 01:09:36,933
have expensive international fees. But I mean, I think the

985
01:09:37,033 --> 01:09:41,036
offline, like... If Lightning had had Keith Send as a

986
01:09:41,096 --> 01:09:46,679
first-class citizen... enabled by default and some facility for offline

987
01:09:46,739 --> 01:09:50,862
payments and open invoices, it could have worked. It could

988
01:09:50,922 --> 01:09:54,004
have worked. It could have worked. But you're still dealing

989
01:09:54,044 --> 01:09:57,447
with a lot of the hurdles have become astronomical because

990
01:09:57,487 --> 01:09:59,988
you can't just have a Bitcoin wallet in every country.

991
01:10:00,260 --> 01:10:03,302
anymore. You know, there's all kinds of hoops that you

992
01:10:03,322 --> 01:10:05,703
have to jump through. And if you send more than

993
01:10:05,763 --> 01:10:08,705
8,000 sats, you know, the bank says, oh, what's this?

994
01:10:08,845 --> 01:10:13,068
Or even, even a strike in the UK has to

995
01:10:13,148 --> 01:10:16,291
block certain payments because you need a KYC for the

996
01:10:16,311 --> 01:10:20,193
person receiving it. So that that's, you know, unless we're

997
01:10:20,193 --> 01:10:23,496
living in a, in a Bitcoin standard world where everybody's

998
01:10:23,555 --> 01:10:26,538
paying each other with Bitcoin, it's, it's just going to

999
01:10:26,558 --> 01:10:28,919
be, I mean, I used to, I was, I would

1000
01:10:28,919 --> 01:10:33,462
send my daughter, on-chain Bitcoin to her bit my money

1001
01:10:33,562 --> 01:10:36,424
account whatever and she connected it to her bank and

1002
01:10:36,464 --> 01:10:38,346
You know at a certain point they're like well you

1003
01:10:38,386 --> 01:10:40,767
can't do that anymore You have to prove to my

1004
01:10:40,807 --> 01:10:43,369
daughter you have to prove that this is your wallet

1005
01:10:43,869 --> 01:10:46,531
And you can only send into our system from a

1006
01:10:46,571 --> 01:10:50,114
wallet that you have proved proven is your wallet So

1007
01:10:50,234 --> 01:10:53,616
I had to create a wallet for her And then

1008
01:10:53,716 --> 01:10:55,557
she had to show a picture of her phone that

1009
01:10:55,597 --> 01:10:58,039
she was alive. And then we had to sign the

1010
01:10:58,079 --> 01:11:02,462
wallet. So then I send money from my Bitcoin wallet

1011
01:11:02,842 --> 01:11:05,144
to her Bitcoin wallet. And then she sends that into

1012
01:11:05,584 --> 01:11:07,345
my money wallet so she can put it into her

1013
01:11:07,365 --> 01:11:11,168
bank account. It's become... What a joke. Now, it's still

1014
01:11:11,308 --> 01:11:14,911
cheaper than international money transfer. But I would like to

1015
01:11:14,951 --> 01:11:18,913
go back to the beginning of value for value. Because

1016
01:11:18,933 --> 01:11:21,275
the streaming payments, it was a dream. It was a

1017
01:11:21,355 --> 01:11:23,917
great dream. And I think you're right. got sold a

1018
01:11:23,957 --> 01:11:25,938
bill of goods. It didn't really turn out that way

1019
01:11:25,998 --> 01:11:29,380
with Lightning. It just didn't. Well, Lightning Labs from the

1020
01:11:29,501 --> 01:11:34,064
very beginning basically told us to F off because we

1021
01:11:34,724 --> 01:11:38,627
got on their Lightning roundtable discussions and all these kinds

1022
01:11:38,667 --> 01:11:45,371
of things and brought up the fact that small payments,

1023
01:11:45,832 --> 01:11:49,934
just a few sats of streaming payments, that small payments

1024
01:11:51,395 --> 01:11:56,139
were inefficient using bolt 11 and that we really need

1025
01:11:56,199 --> 01:12:01,122
a cake key send to be a universal default. And

1026
01:12:01,282 --> 01:12:03,724
their response was, you just need to send bigger payments.

1027
01:12:04,524 --> 01:12:07,727
I remember that. I forgot about that. You got to

1028
01:12:07,747 --> 01:12:11,189
send bigger payments. Okay. Well, I guess that means you

1029
01:12:11,249 --> 01:12:15,772
don't care. We should have walked away then. Yeah, honestly,

1030
01:12:15,792 --> 01:12:22,877
I mean, it's just... So what are you left with

1031
01:12:22,957 --> 01:12:27,740
for international pay? Stablecoins? No, no, no, no. I mean,

1032
01:12:27,940 --> 01:12:31,383
like every issuance of a stablecoin has a smart contract

1033
01:12:31,423 --> 01:12:33,744
with it where they can take your money away? Well,

1034
01:12:34,505 --> 01:12:38,528
okay. Let's forget stablecoin because stablecoin is a whole different

1035
01:12:38,548 --> 01:12:40,829
thing. I don't think anyone sees exactly where that's going

1036
01:12:40,889 --> 01:12:44,772
yet. It's not about the smart contract. It's about, you

1037
01:12:45,212 --> 01:12:49,095
know, it's a representation of a backing of the stablecoin.

1038
01:12:49,795 --> 01:12:53,158
which will be US Treasuries in most cases. It's irrelevant.

1039
01:12:53,918 --> 01:12:56,180
Because now you're back to the sovereignty. They can take

1040
01:12:56,220 --> 01:12:59,082
your money away. Look, the government can go to your

1041
01:12:59,122 --> 01:13:02,564
bank account right now and take your money away. You're

1042
01:13:02,564 --> 01:13:06,647
not safe anywhere. So the only thing you have maybe

1043
01:13:06,707 --> 01:13:09,669
is your Bitcoin keys and that's it. There's nothing else

1044
01:13:09,729 --> 01:13:13,471
in the universe that the government can't touch. But let's

1045
01:13:13,491 --> 01:13:18,655
just talk about podcasting. And I think that for me,

1046
01:13:19,475 --> 01:13:22,277
I would rather see energy and focus put into the

1047
01:13:22,337 --> 01:13:26,680
funding tag right now, which can be connected to Apple

1048
01:13:26,740 --> 01:13:30,663
Pay and Google Pay. And we know that the Apple

1049
01:13:30,783 --> 01:13:34,265
App Store now will not delete your app if you

1050
01:13:34,366 --> 01:13:38,929
have a button on your app for a donation. We

1051
01:13:39,029 --> 01:13:45,753
proved that through lawsuits, basically, with the gaming company. So.

1052
01:13:46,714 --> 01:13:52,098
that's a real possibility to implement to help people get

1053
01:13:52,158 --> 01:13:53,919
value for value. But I just want to talk about

1054
01:13:53,939 --> 01:13:57,181
value for value for a second. Because I have lived

1055
01:13:57,261 --> 01:14:01,844
on this for almost, in October, 19 years. And it's,

1056
01:14:02,024 --> 01:14:05,587
it. It has mainly been PayPal, but we later added

1057
01:14:05,727 --> 01:14:09,530
Stripe for international payments, you know, so for credit cards.

1058
01:14:10,110 --> 01:14:14,833
And it has worked incredibly well. incredibly well. And it

1059
01:14:14,873 --> 01:14:20,097
continues to work from all over the world. The only

1060
01:14:20,237 --> 01:14:22,899
problem we had, that's why we added Stripe, is because

1061
01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:28,462
some people just couldn't use PayPal, notably from India. but

1062
01:14:28,523 --> 01:14:30,864
some other countries as well. And so we added Stripe

1063
01:14:31,044 --> 01:14:32,825
and they can, you know, there's a whole bunch of

1064
01:14:32,926 --> 01:14:36,068
options that you can use Stripe for. And it works

1065
01:14:36,148 --> 01:14:38,990
well. It really works. I would love for it to

1066
01:14:39,050 --> 01:14:45,034
be easier. The same problem that we have with Lightning

1067
01:14:45,574 --> 01:14:49,377
exists in that world where we have people sending a

1068
01:14:49,437 --> 01:14:53,479
payment through PayPal. And then they have to, because PayPal

1069
01:14:53,580 --> 01:14:57,582
is so lame. with the note that you can attach

1070
01:14:57,682 --> 01:15:00,604
to it, which some people don't even see, it doesn't

1071
01:15:00,624 --> 01:15:04,267
even surface sometimes, the field you can put a note

1072
01:15:04,387 --> 01:15:09,430
in, then they're separately sending an email to noagendedonations.com, and

1073
01:15:09,470 --> 01:15:12,512
then those have to be reconciled. It's a horrible, horrible

1074
01:15:12,593 --> 01:15:18,056
system. So if we could put our energy. into connecting

1075
01:15:18,136 --> 01:15:21,579
those two, I call it the boost and the boost-o-gram

1076
01:15:21,659 --> 01:15:24,361
through the funding tag, I think we would have something.

1077
01:15:24,801 --> 01:15:27,022
Just forget the streaming payments. Streaming payments is just not

1078
01:15:27,062 --> 01:15:30,625
going to work. It's over. I think you're right. I

1079
01:15:30,685 --> 01:15:35,348
think it's done. And connecting those two. You know, something

1080
01:15:35,408 --> 01:15:38,310
really interesting has happened in the past two years on

1081
01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:41,412
No Agenda with Value for Value, which I want people

1082
01:15:41,492 --> 01:15:44,755
who are chasing advertising dollars, I want you to think

1083
01:15:44,855 --> 01:15:51,099
about this. So 60% of our income is people who

1084
01:15:51,159 --> 01:15:55,061
send us under $50 per show or per month or

1085
01:15:55,142 --> 01:15:59,685
whatever. Um, and you know, it's like. People set it

1086
01:15:59,745 --> 01:16:03,187
and forget it and it's $3 or it's $5, 11,

1087
01:16:03,267 --> 01:16:07,370
11, 12, 12, 33, 33. You know, numerology has always

1088
01:16:07,390 --> 01:16:12,013
been important. And then above the line, we have, you

1089
01:16:12,013 --> 01:16:15,055
know, $200 or more and $300 or more. Those are

1090
01:16:15,075 --> 01:16:16,916
kind of two levels that we have. And we give

1091
01:16:16,956 --> 01:16:20,359
you like a associate executive producer credit, which is real.

1092
01:16:21,540 --> 01:16:25,482
You can go to IMDB, you'll see. And $300 or

1093
01:16:25,662 --> 01:16:28,144
more. And what has happened over the past year and

1094
01:16:28,144 --> 01:16:30,065
a half, and it really started with a lady named

1095
01:16:30,145 --> 01:16:32,907
Linda Lou Patkin. Have you ever heard of her? I've

1096
01:16:32,927 --> 01:16:37,350
heard you mention her. Yes. And Linda Lou Patkin. And

1097
01:16:37,410 --> 01:16:42,354
these are all individual, small, small people. She has a

1098
01:16:42,414 --> 01:16:46,036
service called Image Makers Inc. Image Makers Inc. with a

1099
01:16:46,076 --> 01:16:50,840
K. And she started sending $200 every single show. So

1100
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:55,783
that's $1,600 a month. And it's always the same message.

1101
01:16:55,823 --> 01:16:58,145
Your resume has about 10 seconds to make an impression

1102
01:16:58,245 --> 01:17:00,426
and most don't. For a resume that gets results, go

1103
01:17:00,506 --> 01:17:04,689
to ImageMakersInc.com. Linda helps professionals and executives position their experience

1104
01:17:04,729 --> 01:17:07,651
so employers see their value. That's ImageMakersInc with a K.

1105
01:17:07,851 --> 01:17:10,073
And Linda Liu, Duchess of Jobs and writer of winning

1106
01:17:10,113 --> 01:17:13,875
resumes. And it must be working for her, for her

1107
01:17:13,915 --> 01:17:17,678
to spend $1,600 a month on a podcast. And then

1108
01:17:17,858 --> 01:17:19,959
more people started doing this. And these are all small

1109
01:17:20,019 --> 01:17:24,843
businesses. Gigawattcoffeeroasters.com, Eli the coffee guy. And then we have

1110
01:17:24,903 --> 01:17:31,427
ManukaGold.com who have honey and they send $333.33. Something must

1111
01:17:31,507 --> 01:17:35,550
be working for them. But what I find interesting... is

1112
01:17:35,630 --> 01:17:37,812
that I don't have to have a meeting with them.

1113
01:17:38,592 --> 01:17:43,576
I don't have to... approved ad copy. I can laugh

1114
01:17:43,676 --> 01:17:46,377
at them, but I can say, oh, this is a

1115
01:17:46,397 --> 01:17:48,699
great product, or I've never tried this. I don't trust

1116
01:17:48,819 --> 01:17:58,045
it. Like the guy from... UnblockMeVPN.com? I have no, and

1117
01:17:58,105 --> 01:17:59,887
if they don't like it, they don't have to support

1118
01:17:59,907 --> 01:18:03,089
the show. They can go away. I don't care. But

1119
01:18:03,109 --> 01:18:06,831
more and more have come in. And when you look

1120
01:18:06,991 --> 01:18:10,814
at it, it starts to become really attractive in a

1121
01:18:10,914 --> 01:18:16,258
way that... is not advertising. Because we also have people

1122
01:18:16,278 --> 01:18:17,999
who say, hey, could you put a link to my

1123
01:18:18,079 --> 01:18:23,543
GoFundMe? My wife needs a kidney. You know, that literally

1124
01:18:23,603 --> 01:18:27,265
happened yesterday. That's a podcast ad right there. Literally happened.

1125
01:18:27,525 --> 01:18:31,948
Yes. Sir Dan the man. And, you know, and there's

1126
01:18:32,009 --> 01:18:37,872
something about this model that is really attractive. And no

1127
01:18:37,993 --> 01:18:43,496
one complains about it because we even have... cross-promotion. So

1128
01:18:43,596 --> 01:18:47,239
Manuka Gold said... Keep fighting the good fight from Manuka

1129
01:18:47,299 --> 01:18:49,420
Gold, and thank you for the nice feedback on Sunday.

1130
01:18:49,460 --> 01:18:51,902
We just placed an order with gigawatt coffee roasters. I

1131
01:18:51,982 --> 01:18:55,565
mean, there's like this whole thing going on. And what

1132
01:18:55,585 --> 01:18:58,987
this comes down to for me with podcasting, for people

1133
01:18:59,127 --> 01:19:03,410
who want to make a living in podcasting. The whole

1134
01:19:03,510 --> 01:19:08,433
idea of grow your show, get more downloads. No. Build

1135
01:19:08,493 --> 01:19:13,077
a community. Build a community and you will be supported

1136
01:19:13,157 --> 01:19:17,840
forever. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. Build a community.

1137
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:23,023
That is the trick. That is the absolute key to

1138
01:19:23,083 --> 01:19:26,686
a successful podcast. No matter what you're doing, no matter

1139
01:19:26,726 --> 01:19:30,849
what you want, build a community and you will have

1140
01:19:30,889 --> 01:19:33,570
success in your venture. And you can pretty much determine

1141
01:19:33,610 --> 01:19:37,753
that success for yourself. And all the big, even the

1142
01:19:37,773 --> 01:19:41,456
big YouTubers and people like that, they have a community.

1143
01:19:41,556 --> 01:19:46,840
They really do. Their problem is they're very vulnerable because

1144
01:19:46,859 --> 01:19:49,822
they're on someone else's platform. Well, I think that's what

1145
01:19:49,902 --> 01:19:51,943
True Fans is trying to do, is trying to build

1146
01:19:52,043 --> 01:19:55,185
community. Yes. I mean, that's the whole point. And I

1147
01:19:55,285 --> 01:19:59,828
would say. Why not focus on the funding tag?

1148
01:20:00,060 --> 01:20:03,502
and put a big donate button or give or whatever,

1149
01:20:03,602 --> 01:20:06,264
or the funding tag actually has an option for you

1150
01:20:06,324 --> 01:20:09,346
to put the words in there that you want. and

1151
01:20:09,406 --> 01:20:12,488
have that surface in the app. And if we can

1152
01:20:12,588 --> 01:20:15,130
tie together a message with a payment, and I have

1153
01:20:15,230 --> 01:20:17,671
no idea how to do that, you know, but I

1154
01:20:17,772 --> 01:20:20,914
know that you can have a button that fires up

1155
01:20:21,014 --> 01:20:24,276
Apple Pay if you're on Apple or files up Google

1156
01:20:24,316 --> 01:20:28,779
Pay. I know that exists. I was just... No, you're

1157
01:20:28,779 --> 01:20:33,783
right, Eric. Platforms don't build communities, but content does. I

1158
01:20:33,843 --> 01:20:38,166
mean, like, it's humans build communities. And that, just to

1159
01:20:38,426 --> 01:20:40,887
close the loop... But platforms can facilitate it. They can

1160
01:20:40,967 --> 01:20:44,110
help. Yes. Just to close the loop, there's where I'm

1161
01:20:44,170 --> 01:20:49,813
in agreement with you. A robot with text-to-speech cannot build

1162
01:20:49,913 --> 01:21:00,981
a community. I just don't know what... I'm just not

1163
01:21:01,101 --> 01:21:07,565
sure what... Did you hear that? What was that? Was

1164
01:21:07,606 --> 01:21:11,208
that a lightning? A thunder? Yes. That outside your house?

1165
01:21:11,348 --> 01:21:15,451
Wow. Yeah, wow. That must have been very close. Holy

1166
01:21:15,491 --> 01:21:20,734
cow. That was kind of scary. I'm just not sure

1167
01:21:20,795 --> 01:21:25,738
that there is a way forward. With lightning. No. I

1168
01:21:25,778 --> 01:21:28,160
just need your response to Bemrose for a second. He

1169
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,282
says, build your community and occasionally jettison parts of it

1170
01:21:31,342 --> 01:21:34,424
like no authority. Yeah, I don't like Jew haters, okay?

1171
01:21:34,864 --> 01:21:38,887
I don't like memes about Jews with big noses and

1172
01:21:38,927 --> 01:21:42,429
little tiny Jew hats and Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew. Yeah,

1173
01:21:42,649 --> 01:21:44,010
I don't like that. I don't have to be a

1174
01:21:44,050 --> 01:21:46,732
part of that. And I didn't jettison them. They left.

1175
01:21:49,854 --> 01:21:53,557
I just... I just don't see a way forward. And

1176
01:21:53,597 --> 01:21:57,900
especially like, so we, we had some, we had a,

1177
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:02,083
a supporter cancel, cancel a $200 a month PayPal recently.

1178
01:22:02,803 --> 01:22:05,965
And so. Essentially, I'm looking at, and there goes the

1179
01:22:06,025 --> 01:22:09,648
node. I mean, like, I just don't, I don't, so

1180
01:22:09,948 --> 01:22:11,549
if you do the math on that, I mean, that's...

1181
01:22:12,550 --> 01:22:17,433
That's like... I mean, that's like. It's nearly three grand

1182
01:22:17,473 --> 01:22:20,855
a year for a node. That we don't make that

1183
01:22:20,936 --> 01:22:23,757
we that doesn't cover it doesn't even come close to

1184
01:22:23,837 --> 01:22:26,159
covering its cost and I and I'm paying for it

1185
01:22:26,179 --> 01:22:29,541
I didn't even realize it And so I'm just saying

1186
01:22:29,641 --> 01:22:32,604
we have to figure out what to do. I don't

1187
01:22:32,623 --> 01:22:34,545
see how do we keep it online. I don't see

1188
01:22:34,565 --> 01:22:38,688
how it works. I don't see it either. And honestly,

1189
01:22:38,908 --> 01:22:43,691
and this node is virtually unusable anyway. Yeah, you can't

1190
01:22:43,711 --> 01:22:46,853
tie anything into it. It's so big, everything breaks and

1191
01:22:46,933 --> 01:22:50,916
falls apart. It breaks constantly. Like, you can't even, it

1192
01:22:50,976 --> 01:22:54,959
takes 10 hours just to reboot it. And this is

1193
01:22:54,999 --> 01:22:57,721
another way in which this thing is... I just don't...

1194
01:22:58,341 --> 01:23:01,143
It just feels like a failure. Well, it is. And,

1195
01:23:01,303 --> 01:23:06,086
you know, we, as a part of... noagendadonations.com we have

1196
01:23:06,166 --> 01:23:08,688
two big qr codes send your money through lightning or

1197
01:23:08,728 --> 01:23:11,510
through bitcoin And we get about one or two a

1198
01:23:11,550 --> 01:23:19,095
month. Yeah. That's it. So it's as, as, as it's

1199
01:23:19,135 --> 01:23:23,078
just not for podcasting. It just hasn't, it hasn't panned

1200
01:23:23,158 --> 01:23:27,301
out and I don't mind shutting it down. I mean,

1201
01:23:27,361 --> 01:23:32,424
it doesn't mean everybody has to follow suit. But it's

1202
01:23:32,484 --> 01:23:38,228
not making business sense for us. No. It doesn't because

1203
01:23:39,989 --> 01:23:43,932
if what – I've been seeing the numbers. in the

1204
01:23:43,952 --> 01:23:47,454
back of my head. Like, as I've seen emails come

1205
01:23:47,515 --> 01:23:49,256
through and all these kinds of things, but I've just

1206
01:23:49,296 --> 01:23:53,959
sort of, like, been putting off and ignoring. it and

1207
01:23:54,119 --> 01:23:58,242
thinking we'll have to deal with this someday. And I

1208
01:23:58,302 --> 01:24:01,984
think that day came. That day is now. That day

1209
01:24:02,044 --> 01:24:09,309
is now because. like It's no longer, this is not

1210
01:24:09,409 --> 01:24:11,711
an issue where this is going to come back. No.

1211
01:24:13,552 --> 01:24:16,294
I mean, what we're seeing now, this is the reality

1212
01:24:16,434 --> 01:24:22,779
of it. And this is not. Like... I think some...

1213
01:24:26,081 --> 01:24:30,204
Albie's doing their thing. you know i i don't know

1214
01:24:30,324 --> 01:24:33,426
what their market looks like i'm not sure what they

1215
01:24:33,506 --> 01:24:43,233
do Fountain. is is an ecosystem that makes since and

1216
01:24:43,273 --> 01:24:48,776
seems to be doing pretty well. But our dream of

1217
01:24:48,856 --> 01:24:53,540
making lightning be sort of the currency of podcasting. No,

1218
01:24:54,260 --> 01:24:59,003
I think that's failed. I agree. And for me, the

1219
01:24:59,083 --> 01:25:02,926
writing was on the wall. with who was a little

1220
01:25:02,966 --> 01:25:09,931
hit girl, Ashley. Ainsley. Ainsley. Mm-hmm. And her parents, they

1221
01:25:09,991 --> 01:25:13,533
were so, they tried so hard to make it work.

1222
01:25:13,613 --> 01:25:19,517
They really, really tried so hard. And Julie and Ben.

1223
01:25:19,998 --> 01:25:23,260
No, not you. No, no, no, no. They really tried

1224
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:25,762
so hard to do it. And I, and I was

1225
01:25:25,802 --> 01:25:28,604
there with them. You know, I did the concert. Yes.

1226
01:25:28,824 --> 01:25:33,447
Did, did what I could. But even there, the whole

1227
01:25:33,647 --> 01:25:38,630
sovereign Bitcoin thing, this ripped everything apart. I'm not saying

1228
01:25:38,670 --> 01:25:40,952
anyone was right or anyone was wrong, but it was

1229
01:25:41,032 --> 01:25:46,055
too complicated. One of the funnest experiences of my... of

1230
01:25:46,175 --> 01:25:51,039
my adult life was going to Nashville. And being a

1231
01:25:51,079 --> 01:25:57,323
part of that Bitcoin conference concert where... you know, where

1232
01:25:57,883 --> 01:26:03,147
me and Dovidas and Eric PP were like... try setting

1233
01:26:03,187 --> 01:26:08,391
up NGINX reverse proxies to get Boostergram Ball to work

1234
01:26:08,691 --> 01:26:12,914
at the last second. It was great. That was so

1235
01:26:13,074 --> 01:26:19,658
much fun. It just sucks, man. Yeah. It just sucks.

1236
01:26:22,140 --> 01:26:24,962
And I see, and I see the. Some of this

1237
01:26:25,002 --> 01:26:29,265
is sour grapes because I see that also the Bitcoin

1238
01:26:29,705 --> 01:26:35,789
maxi world went all in with people like Jack Dorsey.

1239
01:26:36,710 --> 01:26:40,552
Yeah. And they had some hero worship going on with

1240
01:26:40,573 --> 01:26:43,615
Jack Dorsey and Jack Maulers. And these guys are phony.

1241
01:26:44,555 --> 01:26:49,539
you I mean, Jack Dorsey fired half his company because

1242
01:26:49,619 --> 01:26:53,561
AI or whatever. Yeah, right. Bull crap. Bull crap. I

1243
01:26:53,621 --> 01:26:56,403
mean, this is the guy that you look up to?

1244
01:26:56,463 --> 01:27:01,627
I mean, come on. I just think that, like, I

1245
01:27:01,707 --> 01:27:04,429
think you're right. I think that the people, I think

1246
01:27:04,509 --> 01:27:08,512
that lightning went through, it started off as a great

1247
01:27:08,612 --> 01:27:13,775
idea and immediately got captured. Mm-hmm. Very quickly, yeah. By

1248
01:27:13,895 --> 01:27:17,217
investment money and venture capital and these kinds of things,

1249
01:27:17,478 --> 01:27:23,362
and they killed it. Yeah. I killed it. So. Can

1250
01:27:23,442 --> 01:27:26,824
we focus our energy on the funding tag? I would

1251
01:27:26,844 --> 01:27:30,867
love to. Me too. Me too. And I don't know

1252
01:27:30,907 --> 01:27:32,568
how to shut our node down. I don't know what

1253
01:27:32,588 --> 01:27:36,891
to do. I have no clue. I'll have to look

1254
01:27:37,011 --> 01:27:40,353
into it. I have no clue. It seems like you've

1255
01:27:40,433 --> 01:27:44,496
got to close channels and that'll be an interesting exercise.

1256
01:27:45,237 --> 01:27:47,038
Yeah, I mean, how many weeks is that going to

1257
01:27:47,078 --> 01:27:51,501
take to close channels down? I don't know. I don't

1258
01:27:51,641 --> 01:27:56,104
know. But no, I think funding tag is... You know,

1259
01:27:56,544 --> 01:28:03,309
what a great experience in built-in support. Because what our

1260
01:28:03,369 --> 01:28:06,591
dream was with Lightning was to make it where you

1261
01:28:06,631 --> 01:28:09,093
could hit a button in the app and send money.

1262
01:28:09,273 --> 01:28:15,537
Right away, yeah. right away. And Funding Tag can do

1263
01:28:15,637 --> 01:28:20,120
that, just not streaming payments. And not sovereign. The perfect

1264
01:28:20,261 --> 01:28:24,684
use case, to me, one of the most beautiful build-outs

1265
01:28:24,744 --> 01:28:29,487
of this. is what Buzzsprout does. I don't know if

1266
01:28:29,507 --> 01:28:33,049
you've used Buzzsprout's thing. So if you host on Buzzsprout,

1267
01:28:33,870 --> 01:28:38,493
You get access to, I think it's like Buzzsprout payments.

1268
01:28:38,713 --> 01:28:41,895
I forgot what they call it. But they build a

1269
01:28:41,955 --> 01:28:44,677
payment portal for you and they stick it in the

1270
01:28:44,737 --> 01:28:47,619
funding tag. And so when you tap on the funding

1271
01:28:47,679 --> 01:28:51,142
tag inside your podcast app that supports it, it opens

1272
01:28:51,222 --> 01:28:54,484
up a web view sheet of their payment portal page.

1273
01:28:54,544 --> 01:28:58,487
And you've got Apple Pay, credit card. You can just

1274
01:28:58,907 --> 01:29:01,389
PayPal. All your stuff is right there and they can

1275
01:29:01,429 --> 01:29:03,550
just send it to you and it goes. and it

1276
01:29:03,570 --> 01:29:09,034
goes into your Buzzsprout account. Like it's, it's like a

1277
01:29:09,214 --> 01:29:12,716
fully baked in payment portal with all these options right

1278
01:29:12,776 --> 01:29:15,238
in the, and it shows up right in the app.

1279
01:29:16,279 --> 01:29:19,721
It's a great experience. And if, if somebody, if other

1280
01:29:20,061 --> 01:29:23,404
hosting companies would do that sort of thing, or if

1281
01:29:23,464 --> 01:29:26,826
there was a third party, even something like pod page.

1282
01:29:28,247 --> 01:29:32,190
that would do that sort of thing. That would be

1283
01:29:32,210 --> 01:29:37,113
a cool solution. Just give all the little payment buttons

1284
01:29:37,173 --> 01:29:39,635
right there and people can just tap it and shoot

1285
01:29:39,695 --> 01:29:43,637
you some money. Yeah. Speaking of that. We could use

1286
01:29:43,697 --> 01:29:48,200
some. Yeah, for real. Do we have, I'm sure we

1287
01:29:48,261 --> 01:29:52,023
have PayPal people to thank. We do. Lots of them,

1288
01:29:52,063 --> 01:29:56,006
yeah. Because we have two weeks of them. Let me

1289
01:29:56,086 --> 01:29:58,127
see if we got- I did hear a couple of

1290
01:29:58,187 --> 01:29:59,908
Boostergrams come in while we were talking.

1291
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:05,723
Uh, 555 from Salty Crayon. He says, if y'all ever

1292
01:30:05,803 --> 01:30:07,665
shut down the index node, can we get a heads

1293
01:30:07,765 --> 01:30:11,227
up? Mutual close? We would never just yank it. We're

1294
01:30:11,247 --> 01:30:15,710
not rug pullers. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We don't

1295
01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:18,612
even know how to do it. No. We have no

1296
01:30:18,772 --> 01:30:23,355
idea. We've got 2222 from Salty Crayon. Welcome back. And

1297
01:30:23,415 --> 01:30:27,618
EricPP2222. That's exactly what we got for this episode while

1298
01:30:27,638 --> 01:30:32,442
we were live. Uh, we got a bunch of PayPal's.

1299
01:30:32,962 --> 01:30:37,245
We got three weeks of them. Jorge Hernandez, five, $5.

1300
01:30:37,665 --> 01:30:39,146
Bear with me. It's going to be a long list.

1301
01:30:39,206 --> 01:30:46,831
Uh, Michael Goggin, $5. Cone Glossbach. $5. Christopher Reamer, $10.

1302
01:30:47,052 --> 01:30:50,654
Let's see. I need to scrunch this down a little

1303
01:30:50,714 --> 01:30:54,397
bit. Hey, okay, I scrunched. You scrunched. Are you a

1304
01:30:54,497 --> 01:31:02,562
folder or a scruncher? I'm a squeezer. you Randall Black.

1305
01:31:03,663 --> 01:31:07,946
Five dollars. What I do is I put... keep the

1306
01:31:08,006 --> 01:31:11,508
tube perfectly intact as it came out of the box

1307
01:31:12,269 --> 01:31:15,211
but then you you put your you hold the very

1308
01:31:15,331 --> 01:31:16,972
tip of the bottom of the tube and then you

1309
01:31:17,112 --> 01:31:20,234
take your your other hand and run your fingers up

1310
01:31:20,334 --> 01:31:24,237
the side of the tube bottom to top you kind

1311
01:31:24,277 --> 01:31:27,999
of stroke up the side towards the towards the outlet

1312
01:31:28,180 --> 01:31:31,042
okay okay you do that on the right side then

1313
01:31:31,102 --> 01:31:32,843
you go back and you and you do that you

1314
01:31:32,983 --> 01:31:34,984
cover up the left side and you you start at

1315
01:31:35,004 --> 01:31:37,566
the bottom again and you stroke up the left side

1316
01:31:38,266 --> 01:31:41,589
towards the out towards the outlet And then you keep,

1317
01:31:41,689 --> 01:31:43,610
and then you work your way towards the middle. I

1318
01:31:43,650 --> 01:31:45,652
don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

1319
01:31:47,753 --> 01:31:52,256
Because as the toothpaste gets low, you end up with

1320
01:31:52,316 --> 01:31:54,938
some down at the bottom. This kind of in the

1321
01:31:54,998 --> 01:31:57,860
little, you know, this trapped in the bottom where the

1322
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,002
tube has already been squeezed. So you have to... you

1323
01:32:01,042 --> 01:32:03,484
have to kind of like work your way up from

1324
01:32:03,564 --> 01:32:07,707
the bottom of the tube to the top in order

1325
01:32:07,747 --> 01:32:14,631
to get the toothpaste to squirt out the top. Randall

1326
01:32:14,671 --> 01:32:21,336
Black, $5. Yeah, thank you, Randall. Drebscott, $15. Chris Bernard

1327
01:32:21,376 --> 01:32:29,521
at $5. Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. Nice. Charles Hicks, $5.00. Cameron

1328
01:32:29,581 --> 01:32:35,626
Rose, $25.00. Thank you, Cameron. Appreciate that, Ralph Estep. uh

1329
01:32:36,386 --> 01:32:44,432
50 bucks. Wow. Thank you. Martin Lindeskoog. One dollar. Martin.

1330
01:32:45,012 --> 01:32:48,795
Brendan Mulligan. That's the pod page. $25. Thank you, Brendan.

1331
01:32:49,675 --> 01:32:57,200
Uh... We could not process your recurring payment. I'll skip

1332
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:03,565
that one. Okay. Joseph Morocco, $5. Thank you, Joseph. And

1333
01:33:03,645 --> 01:33:10,169
then we have the cancellation. Bronze. Let's see. Bronze Oxen

1334
01:33:10,269 --> 01:33:13,531
Films LLC, $20. And I got a note on this

1335
01:33:13,611 --> 01:33:16,093
one. Thank you for all you do. God bless, Sir

1336
01:33:16,233 --> 01:33:21,197
Thinking Dad. Oh, thank you. Oh, yes, I got your

1337
01:33:21,277 --> 01:33:27,481
note. And I will take care of that. Yes. Lauren

1338
01:33:27,541 --> 01:33:32,865
Ball, $24.20. Mitchell Downey, that's Sir Mitch from Podverse, that's

1339
01:33:32,965 --> 01:33:38,609
$50. Thank you. Christopher Harbaric, $10. Mitch on the personal

1340
01:33:38,668 --> 01:33:41,671
side of things, $10. Thank you, Mitch. Damon Kassajak, $15.

1341
01:33:43,011 --> 01:33:48,295
Terry Keller, $5. Christopher Cowan, $5. Richard Turoksi, $10. This

1342
01:33:48,395 --> 01:33:51,157
is so wonderful. I love this. This is value for

1343
01:33:51,217 --> 01:33:54,019
value right here. This is beautiful. Yeah, it is. Paul

1344
01:33:54,079 --> 01:33:59,703
Saltzman, $22. And... 22 cents. Derek J. Visker, the best

1345
01:33:59,743 --> 01:34:05,307
name in podcasting, $21. Oh, who is this? No note.

1346
01:34:06,127 --> 01:34:08,869
but it's a one-off $10 from Jesse Hunter. Thank you,

1347
01:34:08,909 --> 01:34:13,612
Jesse. Appreciate you. Jeremy Gertz, five bucks. Now we're wrapping

1348
01:34:13,672 --> 01:34:17,615
back around here. Gene Liverman, $5. Thank you, Gene. And

1349
01:34:17,955 --> 01:34:20,757
Gene, thank you for running your uptime monitor. I appreciate

1350
01:34:20,777 --> 01:34:27,021
that. Michael Hall, $5.50. Todd Cochran, rest in peace, $30.

1351
01:34:28,402 --> 01:34:30,884
Thank you, Todd. I love that he's boosting from the

1352
01:34:30,924 --> 01:34:37,849
grave. Boosting from heaven. Timothy Voice, 10 bucks. And that's

1353
01:34:37,949 --> 01:34:43,733
it. And we got a solitary singular. Comic strip blogger,

1354
01:34:43,973 --> 01:34:49,056
25,000 sats. Ooh, nice. He said he sent two, but

1355
01:34:49,117 --> 01:34:52,699
I only found one. So... Send me the other one.

1356
01:34:52,699 --> 01:34:54,780
I'm pretty sure he sent two. I think so. He

1357
01:34:54,780 --> 01:34:57,262
sent two while we were gone. I thought he did

1358
01:34:57,302 --> 01:34:59,604
too, but I could only pull one for some reason.

1359
01:35:00,684 --> 01:35:02,986
Go send me the resend me the note from the

1360
01:35:03,066 --> 01:35:06,949
other one and I'll read it next week. Uh... Howdy,

1361
01:35:07,009 --> 01:35:10,251
Dave and Adam. Today, no promos. I just want to

1362
01:35:10,331 --> 01:35:13,333
say thank you, Dave, for giving me interview about your

1363
01:35:13,433 --> 01:35:17,236
AI tools over Zoom that I published as 56-minute long

1364
01:35:17,336 --> 01:35:23,860
video. Yo, CSBPS, Adam, you're next. Adam, listen to Yoda.

1365
01:35:24,100 --> 01:35:26,722
There is no try. Just do it. This Bitcoin gram

1366
01:35:26,822 --> 01:35:34,047
was $15.49 when sent. So back to community. I know

1367
01:35:34,167 --> 01:35:37,870
that I've built a successful community when Comics for Blogger

1368
01:35:37,950 --> 01:35:43,013
is a part of it. True. Every community needs a

1369
01:35:43,113 --> 01:35:46,796
comic strip blogger. In fact, the comic strip blogger. If

1370
01:35:46,856 --> 01:35:50,298
you don't have CSB in your community, it's not complete.

1371
01:35:50,939 --> 01:35:53,941
And I have known him longer than. Two of my

1372
01:35:54,021 --> 01:36:04,248
wives. put together. That's... That's interesting. I'm just saying. I'm

1373
01:36:04,328 --> 01:36:09,091
just saying. That means a lot. It does. In a

1374
01:36:09,151 --> 01:36:12,093
weird way, it does mean a lot. You need a

1375
01:36:12,153 --> 01:36:14,835
guy like that. You need a guy like that in

1376
01:36:14,895 --> 01:36:18,838
there. Let me throw something else out, though. I'm seeing

1377
01:36:18,858 --> 01:36:25,042
some people in the boardroom saying, Um... Talking about... You

1378
01:36:25,102 --> 01:36:36,610
know, like Cotton Gin said, RIP boosts. Think. I think

1379
01:36:36,710 --> 01:36:47,217
there is a way. Let's try to express this. There

1380
01:36:47,277 --> 01:36:56,924
are things that we have learned from this. from lightning.

1381
01:36:59,185 --> 01:37:04,709
It is not financially sustainable for the index. I mean,

1382
01:37:04,769 --> 01:37:06,890
the numbers are what they are, and I can't make

1383
01:37:06,951 --> 01:37:08,171
that stop. I can't make that change. Well, not to

1384
01:37:08,231 --> 01:37:10,073
maintain the node. It doesn't mean that we don't have

1385
01:37:10,133 --> 01:37:12,334
a node, that we won't receive it, but, you know.

1386
01:37:13,095 --> 01:37:16,557
Sure, right, right. But keeping all the. The channel's open

1387
01:37:16,637 --> 01:37:20,740
and everything. It's a heavy lift. Yeah, we'll still have

1388
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:27,965
the Albie hub thing. Here's what I think I've learned

1389
01:37:28,325 --> 01:37:32,708
from Lightning. In general. And I don't think this means

1390
01:37:32,848 --> 01:37:35,450
boosts are dead or lightning over podcasting is dead. I

1391
01:37:35,490 --> 01:37:38,612
mean, that stuff isn't. That's not dead. There's plenty of

1392
01:37:38,672 --> 01:37:40,954
podcasts that will still do it. All of Fountain still

1393
01:37:41,014 --> 01:37:46,538
works on this technology. But... It's like you said, it's

1394
01:37:46,598 --> 01:37:50,000
just our node that is unsustainable financially. But the thing

1395
01:37:50,060 --> 01:37:57,185
that I'm. trying to You can pay us with the

1396
01:37:57,225 --> 01:38:00,347
Albie Hub. That's who's Eric PP. We still got an

1397
01:38:00,447 --> 01:38:07,051
address. All that works. so Yeah, no, nothing's being deprecated.

1398
01:38:07,072 --> 01:38:11,074
This is just, this is a one, the node, we

1399
01:38:11,174 --> 01:38:13,476
cannot afford to run the node is the problem because

1400
01:38:13,516 --> 01:38:18,519
there's not enough. stuff flowing through it because switching to

1401
01:38:18,599 --> 01:38:22,142
bolt 11 killed it yeah that's just the honest truth

1402
01:38:22,162 --> 01:38:29,587
yeah and so What I'm trying to say... is What

1403
01:38:29,667 --> 01:38:34,090
I think I've learned from Lightning... over these years is

1404
01:38:34,210 --> 01:38:40,034
that primarily Alex was right at the very beginning. It's

1405
01:38:40,054 --> 01:38:41,735
not that I ever thought he was wrong. It's just

1406
01:38:41,775 --> 01:38:46,498
that... He was more right than I think anybody realized.

1407
01:38:48,780 --> 01:38:56,545
that Separating the metadata from the payment is critical. Yeah.

1408
01:38:58,867 --> 01:39:03,830
Because what's really needed is a way to send the

1409
01:39:03,910 --> 01:39:06,592
metadata, the boost message, the sender, all those kinds of

1410
01:39:06,612 --> 01:39:11,235
things in a verifiable way that is independently verifiable apart

1411
01:39:11,375 --> 01:39:16,579
from whatever the payment process is. Because even with PayPal

1412
01:39:16,719 --> 01:39:18,860
and things like that, you have a problem where you

1413
01:39:18,940 --> 01:39:22,243
can't always fit the message. No, no. This is the

1414
01:39:22,303 --> 01:39:25,085
biggest problem. This is the biggest problem. That's a problem

1415
01:39:25,105 --> 01:39:28,347
that I would love to see solved. Yeah. It would

1416
01:39:28,387 --> 01:39:32,089
be fantastic to solve that with really with any payment

1417
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:38,734
method. Because we have a part-time person working on consolidating

1418
01:39:38,974 --> 01:39:44,498
that data every single show. Yeah, reconciling that is a

1419
01:39:44,518 --> 01:39:48,881
huge deal. It's a nightmare. People use one email address

1420
01:39:48,921 --> 01:39:52,463
for their PayPal, a different email address for their message.

1421
01:39:52,724 --> 01:39:58,307
It's a nightmare. And, you know, like, I don't think

1422
01:39:58,427 --> 01:39:59,908
everything's going to break when...

1423
01:40:00,340 --> 01:40:02,241
we end up having to take the node offline. I

1424
01:40:02,361 --> 01:40:05,143
don't think that, I mean, if, if we take the

1425
01:40:05,203 --> 01:40:08,005
lightning node offline and everything breaks, now that is, that

1426
01:40:08,045 --> 01:40:11,226
tells you something right there. That's a condemnation of lightning.

1427
01:40:11,287 --> 01:40:14,348
If there ever was one. Yeah, exactly. If it can't

1428
01:40:14,389 --> 01:40:18,431
survive one node going offline, and then, I mean, Holy

1429
01:40:18,471 --> 01:40:24,795
cow. So And if that's the case, you can't have,

1430
01:40:25,415 --> 01:40:28,397
we're going to base all of our payment platform infrastructure,

1431
01:40:28,397 --> 01:40:32,039
decentralized payment platform infrastructure on one person losing money every

1432
01:40:32,100 --> 01:40:37,183
month. Yeah, that's not good. No. So I think. I

1433
01:40:37,283 --> 01:40:38,524
think this is just going to, we're going to have

1434
01:40:38,564 --> 01:40:40,265
to talk about this for a few weeks and just

1435
01:40:40,305 --> 01:40:42,326
figure out how to do this and all that kind

1436
01:40:42,366 --> 01:40:46,148
of stuff. But the meta, the metadata. part of it.

1437
01:40:51,352 --> 01:40:57,595
You know, that's... That's a thing. Let's pull it, Dave.

1438
01:40:57,736 --> 01:41:00,417
Let's go. We got to end this show. We got

1439
01:41:00,437 --> 01:41:02,879
to end this show. Boardroom, thank you very much. I

1440
01:41:02,959 --> 01:41:06,421
mean, I feel bittersweet today about the board meeting, but

1441
01:41:07,101 --> 01:41:10,143
we've had some real honest conversation. And no AI could

1442
01:41:10,243 --> 01:41:15,167
ever do that. Amen. Amen. And we'll be back next

1443
01:41:15,187 --> 01:41:18,629
week, I think. I'll be here. Dave, you'll be here.

1444
01:41:20,130 --> 01:41:44,165
Join us for Podcasting 2.0. to podcasting 2.0 visit podcastindex.org

1445
01:41:44,225 --> 01:41:50,669
for more information go podcasting all of that. Yes, 100%.