0 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:04,650 Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for October 23 2020, episode eight 1 00:00:04,710 --> 00:00:07,020 or should I say chapter eight? 2 00:00:11,490 --> 00:00:14,310 Unknown: That's how I feel on a Friday. 3 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:18,960 Ladies, Gentlemen, welcome to podcasting 2.0 where we are 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,470 retooling podcasting as a platform of value, after we 5 00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:25,710 preserve it as a platform of free speech, and now the man who 6 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:29,700 parses XML faster than JSON the debt from the deep south. Ladies 7 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:32,070 and gentlemen, Dave Jones. 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:34,890 Dave Jones: What's up? What's up this week? 9 00:00:34,950 --> 00:00:36,990 Adam Curry: What's up now you got to have a better better line 10 00:00:36,990 --> 00:00:37,620 when you start. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,950 Dave Jones: I mean, like, I just mean I'm just down in a 12 00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:41,430 keyboard. 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,370 Unknown: pounding the keyboard. I gotta remember that one. 14 00:00:44,370 --> 00:00:49,470 That's a great one for an opening. keyboard. Ah, I'm Adam 15 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:51,810 Curry's Dave Jones, you're hearing for those who have never 16 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:53,430 heard the show before. There's nothing 17 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:55,140 going on this week. Slow a slow 18 00:00:55,140 --> 00:00:55,740 week. 19 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:03,630 Nothing to see here at all. This is where podcasting 2.0 is, is 20 00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:09,150 germinating, as we try to make something out of something, I 21 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:09,600 guess. 22 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:11,910 On The Bus cast show. 23 00:01:12,510 --> 00:01:16,260 You know, I did the buzz cast show. Yeah, great. Oh, you heard 24 00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:18,480 Oh, it's already out. I didn't know it was out already. Oh, 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,920 okay. Cool. I 26 00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:21,480 get it dropped last night. 27 00:01:21,570 --> 00:01:25,140 Oh, yeah, baby. I felt some time. You know, my problem is, 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,340 I'll be looking at because it did. What is the name of that 29 00:01:29,340 --> 00:01:35,490 program? I think it's it's some kind of thing that's made for 30 00:01:35,490 --> 00:01:38,220 podcasting. It's kind of like, what we use clean feet only they 31 00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:43,890 have a video element. And so I'm seeing four guys. And, you know, 32 00:01:43,890 --> 00:01:46,680 they're just looking at me, so I'm just talking, sometimes, 33 00:01:47,010 --> 00:01:49,740 feelings, like someone's gonna jump in and shut me up. Because 34 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:51,570 I don't even know what I'm talking about. Now. 35 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:55,560 you've, you've diverted three steps away, you're like, you 36 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,290 know, you're six levels away from where you started from? 37 00:01:58,290 --> 00:01:58,650 Yeah, 38 00:01:58,650 --> 00:02:02,010 I can. I hope I answered all the questions, but I did learn a lot 39 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:05,460 about them. I like these guys a lot. You know, they started 40 00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:07,500 they just seem like cool, guys. I mean, I guess you'd want to 41 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:08,160 have a beer with 42 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:12,270 exactly. And they started buzzsprout as a hosting service. 43 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:16,650 I have not I haven't looked at their, at their pricing plans. 44 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:20,250 But I think they mentioned 12 up to $24 a month. But what they 45 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:26,250 really do is a lot of the education to really help people 46 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,390 podcast and make it simple and make it understandable. And I've 47 00:02:30,390 --> 00:02:35,130 actually I've gotten quite an insight to the hosting Guys, if 48 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:37,740 I can just put it that way. I've never liked another one of those 49 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:41,220 things I've never really had to worry about. Because bandwidth, 50 00:02:41,430 --> 00:02:44,220 while the initial test for ever tell you that story about the 51 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:49,020 initial test for for for podcast for podcasting, you know, 1516 52 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:49,650 years ago, 53 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:51,900 like where the bandwidth was coming? Yeah, 54 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:55,590 yeah. And you said that he said that Apple It was like on Apple 55 00:02:55,590 --> 00:02:56,280 drive. 56 00:02:56,310 --> 00:02:59,430 Exactly. It was Yeah, I think they call it the Mac drive at 57 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:02,100 the time. And it was a little bit it was the early early cloud 58 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:06,600 storage service from Apple. And so we're talking 2004, something 59 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,990 like that. 2005 2004? Probably, I don't remember, I'm bad at 60 00:03:09,990 --> 00:03:14,220 dates. Yeah. And, you know, I was putting all this stuff up 61 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:17,460 there. And, you know, on this drive, I don't know, maybe there 62 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,540 was back in the day, maybe 100 megabytes was the was the limit. 63 00:03:21,540 --> 00:03:24,600 But there was really no, nobody was using this to serve files 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,290 from per se the way we were doing it. And I heard later when 65 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:31,740 I had my, my meeting with Steve or maybe after that with some of 66 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:35,010 the team that they'd noticed this, they'd noticed all this 67 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:38,850 bandwidth. And apparently was the that said, just let them go. 68 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,650 Just give them whatever they need. Let's see what they do. 69 00:03:41,580 --> 00:03:45,090 That that's like, if you listen to those initial daily source 70 00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:47,640 code episodes, there's they're real short. And 71 00:03:47,850 --> 00:03:50,520 what how long are they? 1010 minutes? 15 minutes? 72 00:03:50,580 --> 00:03:56,370 Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How big of a file was that? Maybe 10 meg, 73 00:03:56,610 --> 00:04:01,290 and it would take an hour to upload. At least Yeah, 74 00:04:01,379 --> 00:04:04,589 it's crazy when we when we first started. So I don't think I 75 00:04:04,589 --> 00:04:07,739 think people who have come into the, to just the computer 76 00:04:07,739 --> 00:04:11,879 technology industry, in general, in the last, if you've come in 77 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:18,119 within the last really 10 years, you have no concept of how bad 78 00:04:18,179 --> 00:04:24,359 and how of how hard it was to get decent bandwidth A long time 79 00:04:24,359 --> 00:04:29,999 ago. Like if you go one of my first jobs, and it was a 80 00:04:29,999 --> 00:04:35,429 sysadmin at a Insurance Brokerage. And we have big, big 81 00:04:35,429 --> 00:04:40,709 multi state brokerage with lots of branch offices and that kind 82 00:04:40,709 --> 00:04:43,649 of thing. So we had leased lines between every office and these 83 00:04:43,649 --> 00:04:50,219 were these were like, you know, 50 letters email like 64 k ISDN. 84 00:04:50,219 --> 00:04:50,879 Whoo. 85 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:52,500 Yeah, big bandwidth. 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,710 Yeah, I mean, it's back just enough to care is basically just 87 00:04:55,710 --> 00:04:59,820 enough to carry like a terminal session for for an IBM mainframe 88 00:04:59,820 --> 00:05:03,750 bro. Hence, you couldn't, there was no there was none of this 89 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:07,320 like, Oh, just go out and download the latest copy of such 90 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,350 and such. I mean, that just you had you got shipped. If you 91 00:05:10,350 --> 00:05:14,100 needed anything more than, you know, like 50 megabytes? 92 00:05:14,130 --> 00:05:15,750 Oh, yeah, you got it on a drive baby. 93 00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:17,850 Yes, cry. 94 00:05:18,719 --> 00:05:22,019 CDs. Yeah. in the mail. But I mean, like, and it made 95 00:05:22,019 --> 00:05:24,989 everything complicated. I mean, I remember when we. So here's 96 00:05:24,989 --> 00:05:28,979 one, failed technology, the list of failed internet technologies 97 00:05:28,979 --> 00:05:34,169 is also a great topic. And another failed technology that 98 00:05:34,529 --> 00:05:38,609 that I've seen in my career is a point to point wireless 99 00:05:38,729 --> 00:05:39,329 internet. 100 00:05:39,359 --> 00:05:40,709 Oh, yeah, 101 00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:46,170 sure. Yeah. We had an office here in downtown Birmingham. And 102 00:05:46,290 --> 00:05:51,600 then we had our bandwidth was so bad through our ISP. And all we 103 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,310 had we had a dual ISDN lines 128 K. And then this gas came in so 104 00:05:56,310 --> 00:06:00,150 we can like double that. And, yeah, so there's just there's a 105 00:06:00,150 --> 00:06:03,720 skyscraper here in town. And they're like, we have a 106 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,590 microwave dish on the top of this gas scraper. And we just 107 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:12,420 aim it at your building work. Yeah. And so it was like, it was 108 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:15,300 just no more expensive than what we were paying. So like, Yeah, 109 00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:20,850 let's do that. And did it work? No, no, it was horrible. They 110 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,030 like it would every time, you know, it'd be rain or, you know, 111 00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:25,740 lightning or something like that. All right. Well, 112 00:06:25,950 --> 00:06:27,960 this connects right. Oh, my goodness. 113 00:06:28,139 --> 00:06:30,329 Yeah. Today, man, they were selling that hard here for a 114 00:06:30,329 --> 00:06:35,159 while in that name. I this just if you if you haven't been in 115 00:06:35,159 --> 00:06:39,299 the it or technology world for more than 10 years. I mean, you 116 00:06:39,299 --> 00:06:41,549 really just have no understanding of what it was 117 00:06:41,549 --> 00:06:42,059 like, 118 00:06:42,089 --> 00:06:46,679 right? Well, we're in we have a really interesting age group. We 119 00:06:46,679 --> 00:06:49,979 grew up with telephones connected to the wall and 120 00:06:49,979 --> 00:06:54,059 televisions with an over the air reception antenna. And that's 121 00:06:54,059 --> 00:06:54,749 flip flopped. 122 00:06:57,269 --> 00:06:59,639 Become exactly the opposite. So go figure. 123 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,730 Yeah, and, you know, I was thinking about this the other 124 00:07:02,730 --> 00:07:10,140 day, too, is how, how much computer stuff has changed. It's 125 00:07:10,140 --> 00:07:15,000 in general, like, up my first computer ever was a Commodore 126 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,790 64. Mm hmm. And I remember when you boot it up, it goes on is 127 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:24,780 almost instantaneous boot. But when you boot it up, it was what 128 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:31,770 you landed in. was a BASIC interpreter. Right. And so you 129 00:07:31,770 --> 00:07:35,790 just you're programming. That's that was that was 130 00:07:35,789 --> 00:07:38,099 your Yeah, that was your command line was basically you were in 131 00:07:38,099 --> 00:07:39,389 basic. Yeah, 132 00:07:39,450 --> 00:07:41,370 yes, exactly. Right. And you could just start typing basic 133 00:07:41,370 --> 00:07:44,190 commands. I mean, you flip the switch. It comes on within 134 00:07:44,220 --> 00:07:46,980 within a second and a half. Yeah. And you're typing basic 135 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:47,340 command. Wait, 136 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:49,800 your television has to flicker first three times. 137 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:52,560 Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I had the 138 00:07:52,590 --> 00:07:55,860 Sinclair ZX 80 was my first computer before the Vic 20, 139 00:07:55,890 --> 00:08:00,450 which was the precursor to the Commodore 64 and a Sinclair ZX 140 00:08:00,450 --> 00:08:04,500 80 got to look it up. It basically was a piece of plastic 141 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:09,690 and had a plastic overlay keyboard built into this thing's 142 00:08:09,690 --> 00:08:13,260 just a small unit with a TV modulator in the back and you 143 00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:15,930 could hook up a cassette recorder. But what was funny 144 00:08:15,930 --> 00:08:18,660 about it, because you know, didn't have real keys, just 145 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:20,460 those plastic things. You press down 146 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,260 looking at it, it's like there's like a little thin, very thin. 147 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:26,220 Yeah, very thin. 148 00:08:27,930 --> 00:08:31,110 With Clive Sinclair made it actually went on to do make many 149 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:35,490 famous inventions. But the problem was every single time 150 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:39,210 you press the key, the screen would flicker. So if you were 151 00:08:39,210 --> 00:08:41,370 typing, we flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker 152 00:08:41,370 --> 00:08:45,420 flicker flicker flicker. But back in the day, when when BBC 153 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:48,150 came out with their computer, which is around the same time 154 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:52,710 this is I think this was still pre Commodore 64. I forget the 155 00:08:52,710 --> 00:08:57,900 name of the BBC computer. They would broadcast programs. So 156 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:00,120 they'd be like, Okay, get your cassette decks ready, and you 157 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,650 press play and record. And then they would go and it's in this 158 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:07,890 minute or two minutes. It would be an entire program. And you'd 159 00:09:07,890 --> 00:09:10,410 have it, which was a great distribution method. If you 160 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:10,920 think about 161 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:11,910 it. That is weird. 162 00:09:12,389 --> 00:09:16,919 Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was very, it was actually cool. Because we 163 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:22,079 could get BBC on over the air where I live in the Netherlands. 164 00:09:22,499 --> 00:09:25,499 And yeah, that's how they distributed their programs. They 165 00:09:25,499 --> 00:09:29,669 have an hour long program, was it the spectrum was it was BBC 166 00:09:29,669 --> 00:09:35,519 spectrum. I think, BBC. I just see home computer. I want to get 167 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:37,109 it right because people are probably yelling at their 168 00:09:37,109 --> 00:09:44,189 podcast. Yeah. acorn, acorn, the BBC Micro think it was based on 169 00:09:44,189 --> 00:09:44,759 acorn. 170 00:09:45,390 --> 00:09:49,080 acorn. Now acorn is nice to be the parent company or maybe 171 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,060 still are an arm chip right. 172 00:09:51,690 --> 00:09:55,890 Now, I'd note I don't know. Do I have that wrong? I don't know. 173 00:09:55,950 --> 00:10:01,560 I really don't know. Okay. acorn, acorn. I mean, I haven't 174 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:05,610 been completely wrong. Yeah, I don't I don't know. That like 175 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,380 the the BBC, like the British broadcasts are a really the 176 00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:15,000 European broadcast stuff in general, has always seemed to be 177 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,050 ahead of the game for the US stuff 178 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:22,590 with technology always ahead of the game with content decades 179 00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:23,190 behind. 180 00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:24,419 Yeah, yeah. 181 00:10:25,470 --> 00:10:29,730 Because it was all government money. So that a lot of a lot. I 182 00:10:29,730 --> 00:10:32,250 mean, I worked in when I first started in radio and television, 183 00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:37,350 illegal radio and television in the Netherlands. And this is 84. 184 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,550 We were already doing satellite broadcast on Europa television 185 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:45,120 all over Europe. These facilities they had, I mean, I 186 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,480 did television, when you had eight cameras for people in the 187 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,880 makeup room. You'd rehearse for a full day, a day before the 188 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,530 actual recording. You know, it's there was money and money back 189 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:01,560 in the day, but also that I remember the first, the first 190 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:05,340 digital effects coming in Quantel, it that Starburst 191 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:07,470 effect which everybody was doing for a year. 192 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,490 How did how did they do this stuff like that was a third and 193 00:11:11,490 --> 00:11:11,760 all that 194 00:11:11,850 --> 00:11:15,960 before that, before that, literally, you had a caption 195 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,620 camera. So in the edit suite, or if it was live, it would be a 196 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:23,520 separate little table. And there's a camera focused on the 197 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,880 table and the art department would make these black cards 198 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,400 with the art on it. And you'd align it right underneath the 199 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,130 camera, and then they just wipe it in Lower Third, they 200 00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:35,490 literally wipe in a lower third. And it would be it would be a 201 00:11:35,490 --> 00:11:37,830 live camera. If you put your hand under it, you'd see the 202 00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:39,930 hand on the on the screen over the title. 203 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:42,870 Like the weather report. 204 00:11:42,930 --> 00:11:46,530 Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And these are the days when we had 205 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:51,030 this we just had blue screen is green green screen now but I'm 206 00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:54,060 so old, we use blue screen. For chroma key 207 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:56,940 why the switch? I've always wondered what well, was there a 208 00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:59,040 switch from blue to green? There's just better. 209 00:11:59,070 --> 00:12:02,760 Yeah, there's so much. You know, I don't I don't have a technical 210 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,570 answer for it. But for sure, blue was too close to black. 211 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,830 There's a lot of blue in blacks. That, you know, that just makes 212 00:12:10,830 --> 00:12:14,220 keying a lot easier is a choice, I guess. But there may be a 213 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:16,260 technical reason I'm sure someone out there knows 214 00:12:17,009 --> 00:12:20,309 what you need. If you need help staying on topic in podcasts. 215 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:21,179 I'm not your guy. 216 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:25,800 Now. I have a feeling people don't mind hearing a little bit 217 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,000 of our, our history and our banter. Yeah, so I've been 218 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,610 listening to a lot of different podcasts, because podcast 219 00:12:32,610 --> 00:12:36,720 movement is, is still underway. So lots of people are 220 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,950 congregating virtually this year. And it's been very 221 00:12:40,950 --> 00:12:44,070 interesting to learn a lot more about the hosting side of the 222 00:12:44,070 --> 00:12:46,770 business. So it's just your learn to switch your learning. 223 00:12:46,830 --> 00:12:52,140 Here's what I'm learning both. Well, I didn't realize how much. 224 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:55,410 Uh, not all but many of the hosting companies are involved 225 00:12:55,410 --> 00:13:00,000 in advertising or want to be involved in advertising, or have 226 00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:05,160 some degree some level of advertising. Then it kind of 227 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,140 explains to me everything I hear, and maybe it's just me, 228 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:13,680 but everything I hear no matter what it is, to me all comes back 229 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:18,240 to making money. Yeah, and it's the same for tags really. For 230 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,580 the tags that we're discussing in the namespace A lot of it 231 00:13:20,580 --> 00:13:23,730 seems to be well, if I could No, this was an interesting, 232 00:13:23,940 --> 00:13:27,990 interesting discussion that was with things as James Cridland on 233 00:13:28,110 --> 00:13:33,030 podcast index dot social, James runs pod news. And it's about 234 00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:37,410 the referring URLs, which is current because you just, I 235 00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:41,670 think, posted some kind of fix. And what he wanted to know, or 236 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:45,000 what he was saying was, you know, the referring URLs that 237 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,010 we're getting from, just from, in general, it's a problem, 238 00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:53,430 because you really don't know if it's coming from from which app 239 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:57,960 it's coming. If it's a no if it's pod friend, there seems to 240 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,510 be some extra issues because that'll show up as a Mozilla 241 00:14:00,510 --> 00:14:04,740 browser, which of course it really is. And I'm sitting there 242 00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:11,490 thinking, does anyone really care? And does I mean I I've 243 00:14:11,490 --> 00:14:14,100 never thought about it that way that again, that comes from my 244 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:16,200 background in radio where you never have to think about the 245 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,500 radio I'm thinking about the person connected to it, which is 246 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:23,070 old fashioned thinking I realized but as I was probing a 247 00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:25,920 little furthers, you know when someone says well, you want to 248 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,260 know where to spend your marketing dollars as someone 249 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:32,190 who's spent no dollars ever on marketing any of my podcasts 250 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:37,890 ever. I you know, got into the conversation with James and I 251 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:42,000 didn't know that that there are podcast apps that have already 252 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,720 have existing relationship with podcasts may be featuring that 253 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,300 may be highlighting them this is a lot of stuff I just didn't 254 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:54,150 know so I'm there's there seems to be more ecosystem or more out 255 00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:59,250 there than I realized, but it seems really inefficient and I'm 256 00:14:59,250 --> 00:15:01,830 not against adverts. I don't want it I don't need it for me 257 00:15:01,830 --> 00:15:05,790 advertising is censorship. But I do want to make sure we we 258 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:09,210 deliver what what will help people, no matter how they, how 259 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:12,360 they want to run their show their podcasts, their hosts 260 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,350 their the app whatsoever. It's just, if we can get it all out 261 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:18,900 on the table is about making money, because then maybe 262 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,560 there's more things we can do without feels like it's dirty or 263 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,230 something. It's like one of these, like, no one wants to 264 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:28,770 touch it, maybe because of the nature of podcast index. But I 265 00:15:28,770 --> 00:15:31,500 just want to make sure that that we're fulfilling the need that 266 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:32,970 people have. 267 00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:38,429 Yeah, the there's an interesting stat that I saw on Twitter the 268 00:15:38,429 --> 00:15:42,449 other day, and I don't wish I remembered where it came from, 269 00:15:42,449 --> 00:15:47,789 because I think it was just a poll that was done by a hosting 270 00:15:47,789 --> 00:15:51,149 company. But I don't remember if somebody knows that y'all can 271 00:15:51,149 --> 00:15:56,279 tell me that. They it basically broke down. It was just a simple 272 00:15:56,309 --> 00:15:59,639 question. Why do you podcast Mm hmm. And it had a few different 273 00:15:59,639 --> 00:16:05,549 answers. And the by far, the biggest one, it was like, almost 274 00:16:05,549 --> 00:16:12,449 50% of the responses said, just because it's fun. Or just 275 00:16:12,449 --> 00:16:17,999 because I want to, like there, I think that's that there is 276 00:16:17,999 --> 00:16:24,899 obviously a big, you know, funding ad monetization issue 277 00:16:24,929 --> 00:16:29,039 within the space because it is an it's a meat, it's it is a 278 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:34,319 meat media at this point. But there's also a large percentage 279 00:16:34,319 --> 00:16:38,489 of people who really don't care. And there's going to be, 280 00:16:39,419 --> 00:16:42,389 there's, there's going to, they're going to always be and I 281 00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:46,859 think that's what makes this medium unique, is like if you go 282 00:16:46,859 --> 00:16:50,249 out and try to set up your own radio transmitter in your 283 00:16:50,249 --> 00:16:52,919 neighborhood, you're going to get a knock on the door, you 284 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:55,949 know, from the FCC, it's not something you can do. And 285 00:16:55,979 --> 00:17:00,539 whereas a lot of people probably would want to, and would want to 286 00:17:00,539 --> 00:17:04,469 do that, because there's something powerful and fun about 287 00:17:04,469 --> 00:17:10,349 getting to broadcast yourself to the world. Mm hmm. And, but, and 288 00:17:10,379 --> 00:17:16,529 I think all that sort of, I wouldn't say pent up desire to 289 00:17:16,529 --> 00:17:21,599 do that. But there's evidently has always been this desire 290 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,769 amongst people to put themselves out there in the medium of 291 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:31,199 audio. And podcasting allowed, allowed that to happen in a way 292 00:17:31,199 --> 00:17:34,349 that was cheap enough to be accessible to people. And so 293 00:17:34,349 --> 00:17:38,399 even though there's no monetization, excuse me, even 294 00:17:38,399 --> 00:17:42,029 though there is monetization, that is a big concern. There's 295 00:17:42,029 --> 00:17:48,989 also like, I mean, 50%, that's a lot of people. They really don't 296 00:17:48,989 --> 00:17:52,019 care if they ever make a dime off their podcast, I see people 297 00:17:52,019 --> 00:17:55,739 like on the Reddit podcasting thread, or subreddit, whatever 298 00:17:55,739 --> 00:17:59,219 you call it, I see people on there. Somehow I got on the 299 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:02,609 freakin Reddit mailing list for this thing. But so I get these 300 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:06,149 things all the time. And there's people on there dropping 301 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:11,189 hundreds or thousands of dollars on setups for their podcast 302 00:18:11,189 --> 00:18:14,729 studio in their basement. Yeah, and they have like 10 listeners. 303 00:18:15,749 --> 00:18:19,919 And that tells me that it's about his hobby. That's almost 304 00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:20,159 like 305 00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:24,180 a ham radio. I was about to say this is a amateur radio, amateur 306 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:27,900 radio. Exactly. I know guys who spend $100,000 on their antenna 307 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:31,110 alone. Yeah, not even the gear. Well, and this is really 308 00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:31,590 important. 309 00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:35,490 So thank you to 310 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:42,030 blueberry, who now are not only auto submitting, I think they've 311 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:45,540 been auto submitting to us for a while. So if you're a blueberry 312 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:49,440 customer, and you create a new podcast, they take care of most 313 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,630 the way I understand it, they take care of most of all the 314 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,040 feed submissions for you. 315 00:18:53,849 --> 00:18:56,129 They give you they give you a dashboard where you can pick and 316 00:18:56,129 --> 00:18:58,919 choose where you want to submit. And I'm thinking that most 317 00:18:58,919 --> 00:19:00,629 people just go and go boop, boop, boop, boop, and just do 318 00:19:00,959 --> 00:19:01,769 them all. Sure. 319 00:19:02,819 --> 00:19:08,339 It would be great for exactly that kind of person who is going 320 00:19:08,339 --> 00:19:12,269 through that process of just, hey, I want to do a podcast. And 321 00:19:12,299 --> 00:19:15,599 I use the example of a professor with his lectures because I like 322 00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:20,549 it because I think it's valid, but also, it's time sensitive. 323 00:19:20,969 --> 00:19:24,509 And the end, what we're solving is the idea that you have to 324 00:19:24,509 --> 00:19:28,259 wait for Apple to approve your podcast before it starts to 325 00:19:28,379 --> 00:19:32,099 trickle down into everything else. It would be nice if there 326 00:19:32,099 --> 00:19:36,329 could be a list of podcasts that support the index, a podcast 327 00:19:36,329 --> 00:19:40,109 apps that support the index, or at least say hey, if you know if 328 00:19:40,109 --> 00:19:42,689 you want your friends to be able to get it right away. Here's a 329 00:19:42,689 --> 00:19:45,239 number of apps that you know that will be carrying your 330 00:19:45,239 --> 00:19:48,659 podcast The minute you hit submit, or within 15 minutes or 331 00:19:48,659 --> 00:19:52,529 whatever, whatever it is for us to pick it up. And you know, 332 00:19:52,529 --> 00:19:56,969 then in three days or four days, you'll be available on on on the 333 00:19:56,969 --> 00:20:00,509 other apps and other platforms because that immediate You know, 334 00:20:00,539 --> 00:20:02,969 the idea that you can get everything up and running just 335 00:20:02,969 --> 00:20:06,899 like amateur radio key up the mic, and you got to signal. It's 336 00:20:06,899 --> 00:20:09,989 so disappointing. And I think I think it's a barrier to entry 337 00:20:09,989 --> 00:20:11,729 when people say, I got to wait. 338 00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:15,720 I got admitted a bunch of podcasts to Apple. What? What's 339 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,010 the typical turnaround on that? 340 00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:22,740 It's not fair to say for me, because I've had stuff that even 341 00:20:22,740 --> 00:20:25,260 got rejected. And I sent an email and said, What? And they 342 00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:28,260 said that we'll figure it out done. That's it. That's just you 343 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,230 know, that's the that's because of people I know. I think thing 344 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,080 is, at minimum two days, I really don't know I haven't 345 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,550 submitted that many recently. 346 00:20:36,089 --> 00:20:39,359 is, that is a disheartening thing kind of sucks. And 347 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,919 it makes you feel like you're just like, one of the devs on 348 00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:49,289 podcast index. dot social was saying he said, Oh, it's the 349 00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:56,069 pod. podcast, podcast guru. Yeah. Says he submitted his app 350 00:20:56,069 --> 00:20:59,489 to the Google Play Store. And it's taking a long time longer 351 00:20:59,489 --> 00:21:03,899 than usual. That's horrible. But what it should experience? Yeah. 352 00:21:04,169 --> 00:21:05,399 So frustrating. 353 00:21:05,730 --> 00:21:08,730 Apple has gotten a lot better from, from my understanding, 354 00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:11,130 they're usually pretty quick. And now Google's gotten worse. 355 00:21:11,310 --> 00:21:13,920 You don't you don't even know. Like, you're like, what's the 356 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,150 hold up? Like, you don't feel have any guidance is still, it's 357 00:21:18,150 --> 00:21:20,190 just really, you're just kind of throwing it out there into the 358 00:21:20,190 --> 00:21:23,010 void. And you just wait Enos like a, 359 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:26,490 although, although I disagree with it, I have a feeling 360 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,710 they're going to have to break that up. I think the 361 00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:31,530 government's going to step in. I personally, I personally don't 362 00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:37,740 agree with it. I don't like how it's turned out. But I think 363 00:21:37,770 --> 00:21:42,450 they have every right to do whatever the hell they want. But 364 00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:45,930 as with lots of things in America, when you get to 365 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:49,260 successful, you know, we have a an oligarchy. Now we have 366 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:55,440 basically two, two players in the in the App Store, arena. And 367 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,040 it's just not enough. So anti trust laws do come into play 368 00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:01,410 when you get this big. So that kind of a victim of their own 369 00:22:01,410 --> 00:22:02,190 success. 370 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,010 And it's one of those things where if you break up, if you 371 00:22:05,010 --> 00:22:07,890 break up one, you have to break up the other? Of course, of 372 00:22:07,890 --> 00:22:10,650 course, because you could tell you the one that's more 373 00:22:10,650 --> 00:22:13,830 concerning to me even like not from a podcasting perspective, 374 00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:16,650 necessarily, but the one that Google is clearly the one that 375 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:22,020 that is the most difficult, the biggest target, like logically 376 00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:25,140 speaking, really, because they Well, they have a heat, I mean, 377 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:30,120 they just have a track record of, of actual anti competitive 378 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,360 harm. Right, you know, they, they share, they, they share a 379 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,780 lot of other things all the time and bake it into search. Right, 380 00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:41,070 right. Right, like they did they essentially kneecap Yelp and all 381 00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:44,970 these other review sites and yeah, they they put you know, 382 00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:48,780 they put smothers, I think there was a, there's been some some 383 00:22:48,780 --> 00:22:52,590 very good articles that come out about the actual stuff, you 384 00:22:52,590 --> 00:22:56,430 never hear about little mom and pop shops that got destroyed by 385 00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:59,430 by Googlebot, you know, change, and they were clearly targeted 386 00:22:59,430 --> 00:23:02,520 for that, you know, for that to happen. Right? Right. But, but 387 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,120 you know, if you can't, from just a behemoth standpoint, if 388 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,870 you're going to look at antitrust, II and you're gonna 389 00:23:09,870 --> 00:23:13,170 start breaking those up you I think Apple even though they're 390 00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:16,320 not really as much of a target, they're gonna get brought in 391 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,850 anyway, just by association. And meeting bring this around to 392 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:21,780 where we started. 393 00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:27,210 We really need to have technology history being taught 394 00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:31,950 in schools. We are in this place because there's an entire 395 00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:36,510 generation that's grown up that only knows what they've seen. So 396 00:23:36,510 --> 00:23:40,080 Facebook and Twitter and Instagram is the internet Yeah, 397 00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:43,110 and have no idea that oh, you know, you can do all kinds of 398 00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:47,130 other things. The mastodon server that we are using is is a 399 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:52,140 godsend it I cannot say it enough how great this has been 400 00:23:52,140 --> 00:23:55,560 for our little development community of 100 hundred and 50 401 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,030 people and it was we were running out nine nine euros a 402 00:24:00,030 --> 00:24:05,760 month it's a guy in Denmark Hugo who runs Massa dot host. And in 403 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,260 and I know, you know, running no agenda, social comm it takes it 404 00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:12,720 takes quite a bit of resources to run one of these particularly 405 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,650 if you're federated and search is a big deal. So yeah, we 406 00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:19,800 didn't have search enabled, of course, we needed that. And I 407 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,460 went over 39 bucks, boom. Okay, so it's definitely it's more 408 00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:28,170 expensive. But man, now we can search everything and it 409 00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:31,620 functions so well. It's so much better than a message board. It 410 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:36,630 kicks up a mailing list asked by 1000 oh god yes. Oh developer 411 00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:40,050 mailing list that's that's like back to the days of use net just 412 00:24:40,050 --> 00:24:43,260 want to go shoot yourself. One on a Leonard Cohen record, baby. 413 00:24:43,260 --> 00:24:46,530 I'm hopping in the bathtub with a toaster. It's another another 414 00:24:46,530 --> 00:24:47,280 email list. 415 00:24:47,849 --> 00:24:51,239 Yeah, I agree. I mean, the search is huge. 416 00:24:51,329 --> 00:24:55,109 So to do that, to kind of get us into the into some of the tags I 417 00:24:55,109 --> 00:24:58,589 want to talk about chapters, because that's been the chapters 418 00:24:58,589 --> 00:25:02,399 is something that's been discussed. Quite a bit, which 419 00:25:02,399 --> 00:25:06,209 has been, I would say, Jerry rigged in different ways, just 420 00:25:06,209 --> 00:25:11,969 from my perspective. I don't like chapters, okay. And the 421 00:25:11,969 --> 00:25:15,209 reason why I don't like chapters is because the product that I 422 00:25:15,209 --> 00:25:18,509 make, I want people to hear the whole thing in context. I don't 423 00:25:18,509 --> 00:25:22,319 want them jumping around. I understand in hindsight, it's 424 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:25,529 really great if you want to go find something, which is why I'm 425 00:25:25,949 --> 00:25:30,029 tickled pink about transcripts. I love transcripts. But we've 426 00:25:30,029 --> 00:25:32,609 been using transcripts and no agenda player, but also no 427 00:25:32,609 --> 00:25:37,979 agenda show calm now. Although they stopped temporarily, but 428 00:25:38,009 --> 00:25:41,039 you could go and you could say, Oh, I'm looking for something, 429 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:43,439 we're talking about you typing a few keywords that goes to the 430 00:25:43,439 --> 00:25:46,619 transcript, and right there as a play button. And you can play 431 00:25:46,619 --> 00:25:49,199 and share and tweet and do all that stuff, right from there, 432 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:57,149 love that I was really lacking, for me is tools to create this. 433 00:25:57,539 --> 00:26:02,699 I have no idea where to go. And I like the idea of putting 434 00:26:02,939 --> 00:26:08,459 markers in after the fact or even as I think CSB mentioned 435 00:26:08,489 --> 00:26:13,199 having that crowdsource, which has its own issues with spam and 436 00:26:13,199 --> 00:26:17,309 crap but in general it works out pretty well. Unless you ask 437 00:26:17,309 --> 00:26:22,139 people to register to do it then no one does it. And I'd really 438 00:26:22,139 --> 00:26:25,199 like to be able to use the no agenda show podcast for all of 439 00:26:25,199 --> 00:26:27,659 these new tags and you know, because we have a pretty wide 440 00:26:27,659 --> 00:26:32,039 reach across a whole bunch of different apps and players so 441 00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,859 adding all these features in is a really good place for me to 442 00:26:34,859 --> 00:26:38,069 try it and to be able to talk about it here on on on this 443 00:26:38,099 --> 00:26:43,559 podcast. So just from my purse get perspective, I'm not all 444 00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:47,699 jacked about chapters where people can just jump around and 445 00:26:47,699 --> 00:26:53,759 I do it myself I go to a good example is a teepee Marcos 446 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:57,569 podcast, and I'll just look at the chapters don't like nap not 447 00:26:57,569 --> 00:26:58,079 interested. 448 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,910 Because it depends on how its worded or whatever sound 449 00:27:02,909 --> 00:27:04,859 like and it doesn't seem like an interesting show and I 450 00:27:04,859 --> 00:27:06,299 know I'm selling myself short. 451 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:10,860 I wonder if because because chapters sound exactly the 452 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:15,570 opposite chapters. Chapters excite excite me a lot. And 453 00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:18,180 there's and it's really not what they get 454 00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:23,460 out of the house more is what they 455 00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:26,370 let me tell you about chapters. Baby. 456 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:28,380 Tonight, Donna, 457 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:31,710 I'm gonna tell you all about the JSON spec for chapter 458 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:40,020 is nothing gets started like that. But I mean like, it is not 459 00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:44,670 the ability to jump and skip it because I rarely ever do that. 460 00:27:44,970 --> 00:27:51,630 I've there's two podcasts, I listen to ATP and Dr. Peter 461 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:56,850 Atiyah has a podcast called the drive. So I listened to that not 462 00:27:56,850 --> 00:27:58,680 very often, but I do listen to sometimes they both have 463 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,330 chapters, which is rare and podcasts because it's the tools 464 00:28:03,330 --> 00:28:08,970 required to bake that into an mp3 or not, like accessible to 465 00:28:08,970 --> 00:28:12,960 the average people. So they're rare. So when you see one, you 466 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,530 you notice it and but I never used to skip, like I listened to 467 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,690 all the mid sort of ad reads and that kind of thing in ATP, I 468 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:23,700 listen to all those I just just listened to so what do 469 00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:25,890 you what do you use the chapter markers for them. 470 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:31,110 So my the idea of that gets me jazzed about the chapter markers 471 00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:36,750 is not the skipping, but the the ability to add rich content into 472 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:41,100 those specific points. So like ATP is a good example. Sometimes 473 00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:45,300 they will bake in a different piece of show art at a certain 474 00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:48,840 chapter marker. I don't know if you've ever noticed that? No. 475 00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:51,720 Okay. So if you're if you're looking, if you're looking, you 476 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,820 know, if you're sometimes they'll be talking about 477 00:28:53,820 --> 00:28:56,460 something like this something that's visually difficult to 478 00:28:56,460 --> 00:28:59,460 describe. And they'll actually put a screenshot that will take 479 00:28:59,460 --> 00:29:02,970 the place of the temporarily of the cover art of the album art. 480 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:06,900 And then once that chapter goes away, the album Mark comes back. 481 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,810 And you can visually see it's a, it's just a cool it turned is 482 00:29:12,810 --> 00:29:18,150 essentially turns if, if you had this, okay, and this is what I 483 00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:21,690 would like for chapter spec to be. And that's why I've been 484 00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:25,530 kind of pushing hard for it to be an external JSON format is 485 00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:31,860 that if you have an external file where you can pull where 486 00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:38,670 you can define rich content within chapters, you can have 487 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,110 the podcast apps, give them the ability to pull in that data at 488 00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:47,310 the right moment. And you can essentially turn a podcast into 489 00:29:47,340 --> 00:29:52,620 like a PowerPoint presentation almost. It's you can say you 490 00:29:52,620 --> 00:29:55,260 know at a certain point, and I see that you can see this 491 00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:58,350 already in hyper catches. And I've been using hyper capture 492 00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:03,390 more the last week on my iPhone, you can see what happens like in 493 00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:11,190 in the bus cast podcast. It has, it has transcripts. And they're 494 00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:14,460 popping up in the way David Norman chooses in within hyper 495 00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:18,090 capture to display that case, he displays them as like, almost 496 00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:20,280 like cards, right? I saw 497 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:20,580 that 498 00:30:20,819 --> 00:30:25,949 shift from from chapter to chapter at the at the key time. 499 00:30:26,129 --> 00:30:31,559 So you could really have, like one of those cards could be an 500 00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:37,199 iframe with HTML content in it. Or it could be for another. And 501 00:30:37,199 --> 00:30:40,199 this kind of alludes to something that I want to talk 502 00:30:40,199 --> 00:30:43,619 about later, we do some clips, but one of them could be like a 503 00:30:43,619 --> 00:30:48,779 poll, you take a bubble, interactive content, and it 504 00:30:48,779 --> 00:30:53,369 comes up at the moment that it is appropriate for within the 505 00:30:53,369 --> 00:31:00,719 audio. And, like, if you if you define a decent, you know, file 506 00:31:00,719 --> 00:31:03,929 format in that way, there's really no limit as to what you 507 00:31:03,929 --> 00:31:07,589 can put in there. And it's just up to the podcast app to support 508 00:31:07,619 --> 00:31:09,689 that type of media. So 509 00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:13,350 I like I like what you're saying. And again, it all comes 510 00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:17,070 down to tools. I am not a post processing guy, I don't believe 511 00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:21,780 in it. I don't like it. That's just me. Having the having the 512 00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:25,170 tools. I do three, three and a half hours I'm done. I know I 513 00:31:25,170 --> 00:31:29,280 want to I have another 20 to 30 minutes of post production to 514 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,380 get you know, to bake the mp3 to put all the information into the 515 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:38,220 mp3 to get the show notes up and running. I'm just focusing on 516 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:42,990 not screwing it up. Which still happens way too often. What I 517 00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:45,450 like about what you're saying is