1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,500 Hey, Adam curry, John C. Devorah. Sunday May 19 2019. 2 00:00:04,530 --> 00:00:07,380 This is your award winning game nation media assassination 3 00:00:07,380 --> 00:00:09,660 episode 1139. This 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,550 is no agenda, getting hits and broadcasting 5 00:00:14,550 --> 00:00:17,550 live from the frontier of Austin, Texas and the capital of 6 00:00:17,550 --> 00:00:20,730 the drone Star State. Almost like in the morning, everybody. 7 00:00:20,910 --> 00:00:21,810 I'm Adam curry, 8 00:00:21,990 --> 00:00:24,660 and not from silica. Well, actually, I'm great. Now 9 00:00:24,690 --> 00:00:27,210 northern Silicon Valley. I don't know I'm on the move. I'm John 10 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:27,720 C. Dvorak. 11 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:37,380 He's on the move everybody. Yes. Yes. Welcome to episode number 12 00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:41,700 1139. Of the best podcast in the universe a special day. 13 00:00:41,910 --> 00:00:45,960 Actually, you know, I've seen a lot of shows that are starting 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,590 to do different new numbering differently. 15 00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:52,080 And you've been talking about this for a while you talk about 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:53,520 season, seasons 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,670 and series, and no, 18 00:00:57,599 --> 00:01:01,469 no, no, you know, it's like, I know what I know what you're 19 00:01:01,469 --> 00:01:01,979 thinking. 20 00:01:02,250 --> 00:01:06,240 I think in season I'm thinking season 11. Ladies and gentlemen. 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,900 Wow, these guys are great. I need to be interesting. The way 22 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:11,460 to do it. I need to binge listen 23 00:01:11,460 --> 00:01:15,240 to season 11. Show number 39. Or whatever 24 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,680 it is. We'll think about Yeah, yeah, kind of it makes 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,660 it sound more broadcast D. 26 00:01:23,250 --> 00:01:26,340 Maybe that's exactly the problem with it. We shouldn't try to 27 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:28,650 sound more broadcasting or podcast these. 28 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,360 Yeah, this is true. 29 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:33,150 So well, today is a big day. 30 00:01:33,750 --> 00:01:38,370 Yeah, you're getting married? Yes. And so we this is actually 31 00:01:38,370 --> 00:01:41,640 I had to. I know. It'd be tough for anyone to imagine how we can 32 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:47,730 do this. But we're doing a show just before the wedding. So like 33 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:50,910 a few minutes before the wedding. We're doing this. And 34 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:53,940 then you're gonna run right to the wedding right after we close 35 00:01:53,940 --> 00:01:55,800 this and ship it. Yeah, right. 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,220 And once I say I do, then I go back to upload and do the RSS 37 00:01:59,220 --> 00:02:00,540 feed. Yeah. 38 00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:07,860 workaholic. Exactly. So what we have today for the dedicated 39 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:12,660 listeners is a couple of interviews that I did. Right one 40 00:02:12,690 --> 00:02:14,910 with Anthony Scaramucci. 41 00:02:14,970 --> 00:02:19,500 Now wait, hold on a second. This is months ago. You did this, 42 00:02:19,530 --> 00:02:19,980 isn't it? 43 00:02:20,820 --> 00:02:23,940 Yeah, but it was I knew it wasn't gonna be used to the 44 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:26,100 wedding. So I make it very evergreen. 45 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:30,660 So okay, so wherever greeny as in ho hum. Or just Qatar. 46 00:02:30,959 --> 00:02:34,139 Very interesting stuff. A lot of personal stuff. We go into an 47 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:37,559 actual discussion. And for example of Donald Trump's 48 00:02:37,559 --> 00:02:38,189 weight. 49 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,930 Now, but do you talk about that Scaramucci? Does he have a hot 50 00:02:42,930 --> 00:02:43,440 wife? 51 00:02:44,730 --> 00:02:47,040 Yeah, he's got a hot wife in New York. We also talked about his 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,470 restaurant. He has a restaurant. Did you know that? 53 00:02:50,369 --> 00:02:53,879 No, but somehow it does not surprise me. And even better. 54 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:56,669 I'd like to know if I can go there when visiting Manhattan 55 00:02:56,669 --> 00:03:00,389 and say, Tell mooch? It's curry from no agenda. 56 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,320 I can give you the answer that yeah, get the fuck out. Not 57 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,520 happening. Right. Is so even with the interview. I couldn't 58 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,890 get that leeway now. Then, then we're gonna have a little just a 59 00:03:16,890 --> 00:03:20,670 little over an hour discussion with the crystal cliff. 60 00:03:20,850 --> 00:03:24,270 I said Chris. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes, please. So writer, 61 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:29,580 very fast astronomer. You can go look at his TED talks, if you 62 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:34,410 want to see what he's like. He's very excitable. And he's got a 63 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:37,170 lot of thoughts. And I worked with him for years back in the 64 00:03:37,170 --> 00:03:42,600 days of tech TV before actually MSNBC. I believe he was on that. 65 00:03:43,110 --> 00:03:48,210 He was on that operation for a while. Like, anyway, I've known 66 00:03:48,210 --> 00:03:51,030 him for he lives nearby. And so I figured, and I have nobody's 67 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,760 heard from him for a while. So I thought an interview with him 68 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,430 because he has a lot of interesting thoughts. So what 69 00:03:56,430 --> 00:03:59,760 did you talk about with them? More techy than than Skerrit? 70 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:00,540 mooch? Yeah, 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,040 we're kind of talking about 72 00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:09,180 the plight we talked about what your pal? PROFESSOR TED talks 73 00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:15,600 about usually. The plague of the internet, the nice of social 74 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,690 media, the negative aspects of computers in schools, the 75 00:04:18,690 --> 00:04:19,530 negative this 76 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,519 the unintended consequences of technology. Yes. 77 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:25,980 And so that's a fascinating interview. So I think people 78 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:29,670 enjoy it. Well, as we'll get started, let's just go right to 79 00:04:30,750 --> 00:04:36,420 Anthony Scaramucci. We have here Anthony Scaramucci, who just 80 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:40,470 finished a book called Trump to blue collar president. And I 81 00:04:40,470 --> 00:04:43,830 will say at the beginning, I've read this book, and I think it's 82 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:47,730 I can highly recommend it. It is very entertaining. It's kind of 83 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:53,940 a interesting romp between the Anthony's background and Donald 84 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:57,420 Trump's background. And it was very, very well structured. I 85 00:04:57,420 --> 00:05:02,940 liked it. So what drove Huge Anyway, welcome to the no agenda 86 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:03,210 show. 87 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:06,990 Well, John, thanks for inviting me on and I'm you joined my 88 00:05:06,990 --> 00:05:10,020 mother as the only two people I know that have read the books. 89 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:13,920 I'm very delighted to have met you over this pocket. But in all 90 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,260 seriousness, thank you for the comments because I really tried 91 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:19,590 to structure it in a way where I thought it would provide some 92 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:23,730 entertainment, but also some sociological background of why 93 00:05:23,730 --> 00:05:26,550 the President was able to gravitate so many blue collar 94 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:29,310 people to his base and to his agenda. 95 00:05:29,910 --> 00:05:32,460 A couple of things about the book I want to ask right away, 96 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:37,050 which is, I've read a lot of these types of books written by 97 00:05:37,050 --> 00:05:42,030 Italians. And yours is probably the only one that doesn't have a 98 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:44,940 more of an emphasis on the cooking of the grandma. 99 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:50,100 You didn't read my first book, okay, I mean, I got all I got it 100 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:52,530 all i got it all out of my system. And goodbye, Gordon 101 00:05:52,530 --> 00:05:55,950 Gekko talked about my, my Nana, and they are how she used to hit 102 00:05:55,950 --> 00:05:59,340 us with a wooden spoon if we weren't paying attention. And if 103 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:02,310 you if you if you read a lot of books about Italians that are my 104 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:07,560 age, they are all reminiscent of the plastic covering on the 105 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,310 furniture in those people's homes. Okay, my, my grandmother 106 00:06:11,310 --> 00:06:15,660 and grandfather had rugs that were plastic runners over them, 107 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:19,290 and they I think my grandmother waited until she was about 65 to 108 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:22,710 take the plastic off the couch. That was an uncomfortable 40 109 00:06:22,710 --> 00:06:23,820 years of that couch, man. 110 00:06:24,450 --> 00:06:29,190 Yes. In fact, I recall that to era personally, I remember 111 00:06:29,190 --> 00:06:30,990 seeing people that had everything covered with plastic. 112 00:06:30,990 --> 00:06:33,120 So what are you saving it for somebody else? 113 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:37,020 Right, exactly. Sound like me, as I said, My nana, what is it? 114 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:39,600 What it's all? I mean, it's gonna be in the next generation 115 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:39,930 or what? 116 00:06:40,530 --> 00:06:42,780 So, so are you the cook? 117 00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:48,360 No, I'm actually a an Italian mama's boy, which makes me the 118 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,810 eater and not to cook. You know, I'm the guy that dropped his 119 00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:54,990 underwear, right where I took it off and my mother swooped in 120 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:57,600 behind me. And the next thing you know, it was ironed and 121 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,390 pressed. Okay. And so fortunately, that ended for me 122 00:07:00,690 --> 00:07:05,730 in 1982 When I went to college, and so now I'm basically I'm 123 00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:09,750 very clean. I probably shower twice a day, but I'm the most 124 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:14,370 disorganized train wreck, because I had an Italian mom and 125 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,690 I'm an Italian mama's boy. 126 00:07:17,430 --> 00:07:23,370 You are a hedge fund guy. Correct. And I want to just ask 127 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:27,000 for the just the general listener. Can you describe what 128 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,240 that means? What is what is running a hedge fund entail? 129 00:07:30,570 --> 00:07:33,210 What we what I think the public generally thinks is just you 130 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:36,810 just, you just rake in lots of money doing pretty much nothing? 131 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:39,810 Yeah, I mean, obviously, that's, you know, there's a lot of 132 00:07:39,810 --> 00:07:42,600 jealousy in the media. So the media wants to characterize it 133 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,260 that way. But there's $3 trillion in our industry in 134 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:48,780 terms of assets under management for a reason, we actually do a 135 00:07:48,780 --> 00:07:52,710 pretty good job for people. So you would come to a hedge fund 136 00:07:52,710 --> 00:07:57,360 manager, if you were looking for like a high single digit rate of 137 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:03,300 return a 789 percent return with very low volatility and relative 138 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:06,540 consistency. And so a lot of people have money in the stock 139 00:08:06,540 --> 00:08:08,850 market. But there's a lot of volatility there, which saw a 140 00:08:08,850 --> 00:08:15,090 10% correction in the month of October 2018, as an example, but 141 00:08:15,090 --> 00:08:17,610 what a hedge fund manager if they're doing their jobs, right, 142 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:22,380 they generate a high absolute return with low volatility. And 143 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:24,900 so it takes a lot of work. There's 60 people in my 144 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:29,430 organization. I started this company, with three people in 145 00:08:29,430 --> 00:08:33,240 2005. We're about to celebrate our 14th year in business, this 146 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,170 coming March. And we've got about $10 billion under 147 00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:40,170 management. And one of the things that we tried to do is we 148 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:43,710 tried to democratize the industry. And so I set up a 149 00:08:43,710 --> 00:08:46,680 structure. Having gone to Harvard Law School and 150 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:50,370 understanding the security regs, I set up a new structure, which 151 00:08:50,370 --> 00:08:55,020 has been replicated now, where we're able to have investors 152 00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:59,910 with minimums of about $25,000. So I've sort of opened up the 153 00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:03,480 hedge fund investing to the mass affluent. I wrote a book about 154 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,790 this, in 2012, called The Little Book of hedge funds, which was 155 00:09:08,790 --> 00:09:13,620 basically a primer or an explanatory book on what people 156 00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:15,900 should know about hedge funds, the pluses and the minuses for 157 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:19,230 that matter. So and that was well received, and we have about 158 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:25,050 41,000 clients, over $10 billion under management. And you know, 159 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:27,930 one thing about the president, he made me as famous as Melania. 160 00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:30,660 And Ivanka, I didn't have to, I didn't have to sleep with him or 161 00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:32,880 be his daughter, but he may be pretty famous. And so it's 162 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,250 raised the profile of my business, which has been 163 00:09:35,250 --> 00:09:39,180 helpful. Publicity is good. Yeah. Yeah. No question in my 164 00:09:39,180 --> 00:09:41,310 business, certainly, because we've got good performance that 165 00:09:41,310 --> 00:09:42,390 backup the publicity. 166 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:45,870 Well, you've been on a lot of shows. I mean, you've been on a 167 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:51,090 Dr. Phil. Yep. You did a thing for Facebook. Yeah. You went on 168 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:55,710 Stephen Colbert. Right after you were released from the White 169 00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:58,980 House. Yep. What did you think of that experience? Because I 170 00:09:58,980 --> 00:10:01,980 watched that episode. And I thought it was, I thought they 171 00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:03,960 were rude to be honest about it. 172 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:06,240 Well, I mean, look, they're angry about the president. They 173 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,540 don't like the president. They're there. They're building 174 00:10:09,540 --> 00:10:14,190 a fan base of anti Trump stirs. So when I expressed the 175 00:10:14,190 --> 00:10:17,490 willingness to go on the show after Stephen was excoriating 176 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:20,190 me, during my time inside the White House, I think they were 177 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:23,370 all taken aback. But I had to take incoming, I was happy to go 178 00:10:23,370 --> 00:10:28,230 on and give my point of view. I was on Bill Maher show this past 179 00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:31,320 week, and I've done his show a few times. Again, it's like 180 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,550 being a Yankee in Fenway Park, or a Dodger in Fenway Park, you 181 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:40,020 know, it's a rough place. But I feel that we've got to get back 182 00:10:40,020 --> 00:10:43,920 to talking to each other. You know, we may not agree 183 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:47,640 ideologically, we may see the country going in different 184 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,190 directions for different reasons. But if we don't talk to 185 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:52,710 each other, I think it's a very big mistake. I like to tell 186 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:56,610 people, I'm a patriot first, and a partisan last, I have a 187 00:10:56,610 --> 00:11:00,720 certain philosophical view, based on my years of experience 188 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,340 in business and my observation about what works from a point of 189 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:08,970 view of policy. But what I don't want to do is ever close myself 190 00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:12,060 off to the other person's point of view, John, John Kennedy had 191 00:11:12,060 --> 00:11:15,180 a great line which I share with everybody. He said, I spent a 192 00:11:15,180 --> 00:11:18,240 lot of time understanding the other side, because there's 193 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,170 obviously very smart people on the other side, and I may learn 194 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,680 something from them, or conversely, they may sharpen, 195 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,520 and provide me with more ammunition for my own argument. 196 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,500 And so we have to do that in our society. 197 00:11:31,950 --> 00:11:35,490 You get a perverse thrill when you try to just describe a 198 00:11:35,490 --> 00:11:39,810 situation and Bill Maher, and part of that description and 199 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,630 tail, somebody's getting all worked up. And Bill Maher 200 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:45,240 actually goes, kind of ballistic right in front of you. 201 00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:48,540 Well, I mean, I can't tell you I'm getting a thrill because I'm 202 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,600 trying to explain something and you know, but they, sometimes 203 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,180 they have a hard time they you know, it's very emotionally 204 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:58,470 charged, you know. So what I think what I'm able to do 205 00:11:58,470 --> 00:12:03,090 though, is I'm able to detach myself a little bit from the 206 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:08,610 heat of the argument and try to relate to people, where I think 207 00:12:08,610 --> 00:12:12,450 they really live is when all the emotions die down. Where they 208 00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:16,530 really live is in that common sense altimeter where they can 209 00:12:16,530 --> 00:12:21,900 sense when someone's speaking, common sense as opposed to spin 210 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:25,710 or ideological pablum. And I like going on these shows, 211 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:29,880 because, you know, I experienced Washington, I felt everybody in 212 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,330 Washington was on spin cycle. But most New Yorkers are on a 213 00:12:33,330 --> 00:12:37,290 rinse cycle. And so for me, I can sit there. And you know, I 214 00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:42,390 don't have any prepared notes, I don't have any sound bites, that 215 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:46,650 I'm ready to spill out of my mouth at a moment's notice. And 216 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:49,350 I'm just trying to respond and interact with somebody on an 217 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:53,550 intellectual basis. And, and hopefully, you know, if I'm not 218 00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:56,760 winning them over, at least I can explain directionally why 219 00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:58,650 half the country feels the way I do. 220 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:03,360 What do you think Trump's top skills are? 221 00:13:05,460 --> 00:13:11,850 He's got an unnatural, unnatural level of charisma unnatural. It 222 00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:16,110 has to do with the fact that he has decided that he is going to 223 00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:21,600 be completely uninhibited. In a media environment. That's 45 224 00:13:21,630 --> 00:13:25,950 years of doing radio, television, public speaking, 225 00:13:26,130 --> 00:13:33,090 signing books, writing books, promoting his brands, he has a 226 00:13:33,090 --> 00:13:37,080 completely uninhibited approach. And, again, I'm not picking on 227 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,680 these people. But let's go over the 17 other candidates that 228 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,810 were in that race that we're running against them for the 229 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:47,160 Republican nomination, you know, they are, you know, they've got 230 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,640 the millstone on their necks of consultants speak the millstone 231 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,690 on their necks of practice, can't say certain things that 232 00:13:54,690 --> 00:14:01,200 could be offensive. And so he has that capability. He's got 233 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,370 unbelievable political instincts, unbelievable. And I 234 00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:07,650 write about that in my book, at the end of the day, he could 235 00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:11,430 have had 10 political consultants telling them to pick 236 00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:15,120 choice A but he felt choice B was the right choice, he would 237 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,390 go with choice B. He had people telling him Listen, you're not 238 00:14:18,390 --> 00:14:22,200 going to win in Wisconsin or or Michigan don't spend any time 239 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,960 there. And don't spending time in Pennsylvania that that states 240 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,290 really not purple. It's been blue for 32 years. Don't spend 241 00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:31,350 any time there. And he looked at that and said no, there's an 242 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:35,250 opportunity there. There's a vacuum of advocacy for these 243 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:38,310 blue collar people, you know, the the left spent their time 244 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:42,630 focused on Listen, a couple of dolphins got killed from eating 245 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:45,660 plastic straws, absolute tragedy. I'm not trying to make 246 00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:48,930 light of it. But they spent their time focused on that or 247 00:14:48,930 --> 00:14:53,430 the polar ice caps melting. Again, a disturbing fact and I'm 248 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:56,220 not trying to make light of it, but they left out of the 249 00:14:56,220 --> 00:14:59,520 equation for at least a generation what was going on in 250 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,940 the middle class. And the lower middle class. And whether you 251 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:06,300 like the President or not, he saw that opening. And he did 252 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:09,330 something that has to be marveled at. If you're a 253 00:15:09,330 --> 00:15:12,810 political scientist, he, he hijacked the Republican Party, 254 00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:16,200 from the establishment Republicans who hate his guts. 255 00:15:16,530 --> 00:15:19,680 And then he reached into the Democratic Party, and he stole 256 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,440 their base and moved it over to the Republican. So again, you 257 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,190 can hate him. But this guy's got incredible political instincts. 258 00:15:26,190 --> 00:15:30,060 And he's a showman. And by the way, he's an entertainer. Don't 259 00:15:30,090 --> 00:15:33,420 lose sight of that. He's the entertainer and chief, he knows 260 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,200 how to get a crowd route riled up he once said, or somebody 261 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,620 wrote about him, that he's the only guy that can fill an arena 262 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:43,860 without a musical instrument, right? He just shows up. He's 263 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:48,030 gonna say some crazy stuff. Yeah, at any moment. It looks 264 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:51,060 like there's going to be a car crash. And he's out there, 265 00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:55,560 mallet propping and talking and as usual zaniness and there's a 266 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,910 10,000 people waiting online, to get into the overfilled capacity 267 00:15:59,910 --> 00:16:03,420 of that arena. Those Those are skills. He's also a gregarious 268 00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:06,570 guy, you know, the media will paint him as not being the case. 269 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,260 But when you're in his presence, he's a lot of fun to be with. 270 00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:12,900 Does he get a lot of sleep? 271 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:17,370 I actually cannot figure that out. I mean, somebody should 272 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:23,100 examine this guy because he has a supernatural capacity to not 273 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,430 get sleep. And I'll just quote one of his doctors. He's the 274 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:29,730 only human being that we've met, where his eating habits are not 275 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:33,000 affecting his health. So I can't figure that out either. Okay, I 276 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,060 I've had more than one meal with him. One interesting one in the 277 00:16:36,060 --> 00:16:38,610 White House, where he was pounding down the beef 278 00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:41,790 wellington, which is like a filet mignon wrapped in this 279 00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:45,420 bakery crust. And he was like It passed the sauce over your 280 00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:48,780 Pasmore that gravy. Like mince gravy is probably like 5 million 281 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:53,190 calories. You know, I mean, he pounds it down. No problem has 282 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:57,120 unlimited amounts of energy. This is a guy that can do 11 283 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,870 campaign stops in four days prior to election. This is a guy 284 00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:05,430 that was speaking in Altoona, Pa at 1030. At night. We were all 285 00:17:05,430 --> 00:17:08,280 exhausted. He gets back on the plane wants to fly to Michigan 286 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,330 do one more campaign stop at 1230 in the morning. That's him. 287 00:17:13,050 --> 00:17:15,630 I don't know how he does it. But that's him. And he's 72, buddy. 288 00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:18,510 But here's a lesson for your listeners as pockets. Don't 289 00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:22,920 smoke, and don't drink, which neither thing the President 290 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,900 does. And you too can fly around on Air Force One like a maniac. 291 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:30,660 What do you think your ways? 292 00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:36,000 Why you any mean trouble? This is like breaking news. Well, how 293 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,910 about this? How not to 39 as that I think is published wages 294 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:44,760 to 39. I will take the over on that. He'd be mad at me for 295 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,490 saying I don't know what he weighs. But it's not 239. 296 00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:53,400 One thing that you would insofar his as his skills are concerned, 297 00:17:53,610 --> 00:17:56,700 something that you kind of pointed out in the book, which 298 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:02,790 is the skill of timing. And this is related to his doing the New 299 00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:08,070 York skating rink. Yep. And it's it seems as though he was in the 300 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:12,600 right place at the right time. Or if he was premature and 301 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,450 trying to do something he would come back at exactly the right 302 00:18:15,450 --> 00:18:18,840 moment and then kind of swoop in. And which is the way I kind 303 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,950 of felt he ran for president don't question. It was a timing 304 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,790 thing. No question 305 00:18:23,790 --> 00:18:27,120 because he looked at running for president at a pause that 306 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,830 stopped. He looked again for running at President in 1993 and 307 00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:37,890 stopped. And then he took a very serious foray in 2002, 308 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:41,670 potentially grab the nomination of the Reform Party flew out to 309 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,870 LA. He was practicing his negatives on John McCain, who we 310 00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:48,510 thought was going to be the Republican nominee. The first 311 00:18:48,510 --> 00:18:54,300 time I heard the words I like my heroes uncaptured. Were in an 312 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:56,460 interview, you can go back and Google this. He was being 313 00:18:56,460 --> 00:19:00,960 interviewed in 2000 by Dan Rather, for 60 minutes. And he 314 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,200 was testing that out. Because he thought John McCain was going to 315 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,890 be the Republican nominee in 2000. He abandoned that, because 316 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:10,170 his political instincts correctly dictated that you're 317 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:13,260 not going to win the presidency in this country, from a third 318 00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:16,860 party. And so he stayed out of the fray really contemplated the 319 00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:20,040 2012 race did not want to run against the Presidential 320 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,180 incumbent. good instincts there because very hard to defeat an 321 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:26,610 incumbent unless you have a disaster going on in the 322 00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:30,030 economy. And so we didn't have anything we had a stable economy 323 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:33,390 and 12 and proving an economy very hard to beat a sitting 324 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:38,820 president. So he waited it out. And then he struck the nerve of 325 00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:42,900 the anxiety that's taking place in our system related to the 326 00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:47,160 blue collar experience and the decline in living standards. And 327 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,180 he went out there and preach that mantra. And at that mantra, 328 00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:54,540 by the way is tied to immigration because the illegal 329 00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:57,930 immigration has certainly affected wage growth in our 330 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,100 society and And he went out there. And he made that case. 331 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:04,830 And he made the case in a way that was unbelievably 332 00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:09,360 unorthodox. And even though we were outspent almost two to one 333 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,440 by Secretary Clinton's campaign, and we were outmanned, I would 334 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,910 say almost three to one by her. He was able to capture the 335 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:21,240 presidency because he was able to get his message out in the 336 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,810 American media, in a way that was nothing short of staggering. 337 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:30,450 It was billions and billions of dollars of free media, whether 338 00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:33,900 they were televising a rally where they were interviewing him 339 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,100 or he was calling into their shows. He literally was able to 340 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:44,400 use the media as almost a third arm of his campaign strategy. Do 341 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,380 you serve? I don't, but did you? Did you catch that analogy about 342 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:50,730 surfing in there? 343 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,120 Yeah. I mean, as I read, this is what what is this doing? And 344 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,500 here, he doesn't seem like a surfer. 345 00:20:55,860 --> 00:21:00,660 I'm not a I'm not a surfer. But I can discern waves because, you 346 00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:05,160 know, there's a conjurer def wave in our economic system. And 347 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,930 there are other ways, Elliot wave theory for investing. And 348 00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:13,110 my point, the metaphor of the surfing for your listeners, 349 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,220 because I really feel that these politicians are surfers. And 350 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:22,080 they have to get on that surfboard and ride a wave into 351 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,440 sure that fits their personality. As an example, Jeb 352 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,870 Bush would have been a phenomenal presidential 353 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:32,280 candidate in the early 90s to mid 90s. wrong candidate for 354 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,720 2016. But a phenomenal guy, Governor Romney, same sort of 355 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,240 thing. They their personalities are just too bland. 356 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,620 You are a supporter of Romney, and then you kind of switched 357 00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:46,860 over to Jeb Bush before you finally latched on to the Trump 358 00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:49,950 bandwagon. Yes. How did that happen? 359 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,460 Well, because I didn't believe them. You know, I write in the 360 00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:56,610 book that I'm sitting with him the day after the apprentice 361 00:21:56,610 --> 00:22:00,270 ends. We're having breakfast in the Trump Tower. And he's 362 00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:02,670 telling me he's running for President. I'm laughing. I'm 363 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:03,720 like, Yeah, running for president. 364 00:22:03,810 --> 00:22:05,760 We weren't the only one doing that, of course. 365 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,400 And he said that. Yeah. Every I said to him, he said, You 366 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,440 weren't watching the apprentice last night? I said, No, of 367 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,720 course not. He goes, Well, you're the only one that wasn't 368 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,500 watching it. I was fantastic, as I'm sure you were. But he said, 369 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,390 Well, it's over. Now I'm running. I'm running for 370 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:21,270 president. I said, No, you're not. He said, No, no, I totally 371 00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:23,400 am. So let me tell you, let me say you're at 2%. In the polls, 372 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:25,710 you're not going to run for president, because I'm at 2% in 373 00:22:25,710 --> 00:22:29,100 the polls, because people are like you, okay, they think I'm 374 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,590 not running. But the minute I start running, I'm going to 375 00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:34,530 shoot to the top of the polls. And I'm going to stay there 376 00:22:34,530 --> 00:22:37,950 until I win the presidency. And I gotta tell you, you know, at 377 00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:40,290 least on the Republican side, that's what he did go take a 378 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:45,000 look at those polling numbers. You know, there was nobody in 379 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,020 shooting range. Yeah, a couple of guys won, because of the 380 00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:51,270 party system and the establishment, they won a few 381 00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:54,570 primaries against them, but very few. And, you know, he was 382 00:22:54,570 --> 00:22:57,630 right, right at the top as it related to the popular vote 383 00:22:57,930 --> 00:23:02,070 among registered Republicans. So I didn't see it. I admit that in 384 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:06,510 the book, I also didn't see the level of economic desperation, 385 00:23:06,510 --> 00:23:09,510 despite the fact that grew up in a blue collar family, I have 386 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:13,080 spent too much time with wealthy people. And I have to confirm 387 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,460 biases of running my hedge fund and interacting with wealthy 388 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:21,240 people. And so when I descended into these towns with then 389 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,900 candidate Trump, I write in my book that it was quite eye 390 00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:28,590 opening. What I saw in those towns, and the composite of what 391 00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:32,910 I saw is that we went from a generation of aspirational 392 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:37,170 working class families to desperation ones, and about 35 393 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:41,820 years. And the public servants of the established class, didn't 394 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:44,850 really see it. And if they saw it, they were indifferent to it. 395 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,690 And so he was able to capitalize on that in a way that I think 396 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:50,700 will be viewed as historic. 397 00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:55,950 Well, talking about hanging out with the rich, can you explain 398 00:23:55,950 --> 00:24:02,100 to me and I'm from this area? How the richest guys in Silicon 399 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,790 Valley, many billionaires, there's quite a few of them are 400 00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:06,810 all Democrats? 401 00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:11,850 Well, I can't, but I mean, what I often think about there's a 402 00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:16,410 level of guilt, and there's a level of self preservation. 403 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:19,380 That's more important to some of these people than actual public 404 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:24,240 policy. And so what ends up happening is they are sitting 405 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,030 there with a boatload of money, they feel very guilty about it, 406 00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:31,470 and they feel that they can be progressive or ultra liberal. 407 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,650 And that'll give them a pass. And that's by and large been 408 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:38,670 true from the American media. So if you're super rich, but your 409 00:24:38,670 --> 00:24:42,240 liberal American media leaves you alone, if you're super rich, 410 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,240 but conservative, they burn you in effigy, and they try to 411 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,360 demonize you and so, you know, to me, I think it's more of a 412 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,900 self preservation thing than it is a principle based thing 413 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:55,080 because how did you get the money? You got the money because 414 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,130 we've set up a market based system in our society which has 415 00:24:59,130 --> 00:25:02,730 led to incredible growth and innovation and job creation and 416 00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:07,920 unbelievable success for people. And and you know, we have a 417 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:12,450 society that will reward people for their ingenuity and risk 418 00:25:12,450 --> 00:25:15,960 taking you cannot systematize despite what the left says, 419 00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:18,930 You're never going to be able to systematize an equal outcome, we 420 00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:23,880 should be way more focused, from a policy perspective on figuring 421 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,240 out ways to create more equal opportunity, where our 422 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,750 educational system K through 12, the public system is a failure. 423 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,220 It's broken, it's very uneven. We should be spending more time 424 00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:39,750 figuring out a way to get a kid who's living in a less than 425 00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:42,570 affluent neighborhood, a good public school education as 426 00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:46,620 opposed to trying to figure out how to overtax people and 427 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:50,250 wealth, redistribute, it doesn't work. It slows down growth, it 428 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:54,300 slows down opportunity. And it stunts the system. And if you 429 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:57,420 don't believe me, we have 150 years of documented history on 430 00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:59,550 this throughout the world where people have tried it. 431 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:05,250 When you first showed up at the White House, and then left 11 432 00:26:05,250 --> 00:26:10,860 days later. My take on it was that well, here they brought 433 00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:16,170 this guy in as a hatchet man to get rid of rats, Priebus and 434 00:26:16,170 --> 00:26:20,100 ban. But as I read the book, it's obviously was a more 435 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:24,720 convoluted road. It wasn't as though they just brought in you 436 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,810 as a hatchet man to get rid of rats Priebus. Yeah, but that's 437 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,910 that's kind of what looks like in hindsight. 438 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,780 I mean, I definitely serve that purpose. There's no question 439 00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:36,180 about that. But if you you know, if you remember in the book, I 440 00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:40,230 was offered the OPO position. I accepted that job, Priebus and 441 00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:43,470 Bannon tried to block me from that job. And then I did 442 00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:46,020 something really, really stupid. I mean, he did many things 443 00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:48,360 stupid. But the biggest stupid thing I did was like, put my 444 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:55,260 pride and my ego into trying to secure that job. You see, 445 00:26:55,710 --> 00:26:59,430 that's what I what let, let's back to the you mentioned the 446 00:26:59,460 --> 00:27:07,470 Bannon and Priebus forming a coalition of bad guys. Would you 447 00:27:07,470 --> 00:27:09,810 thought was peculiar because they weren't similar characters 448 00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:13,950 by any means? And they wanted to block you from that particular 449 00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:17,040 job. Why do you think that was? I mean, did you have some sort 450 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,420 of a better in with Trump, did you because you knew him more 451 00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:25,080 personally. No, I knew him personally. Or what was the 452 00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:27,840 purpose of they're trying to block you? Why didn't they just 453 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,290 let you go there? And then just, you know, leave you there? Yeah. 454 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:31,440 I 455 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,660 mean, that would have been a better strategy, I think for all 456 00:27:33,660 --> 00:27:35,790 of us, right. If he's left me alone, I wasn't, I think 457 00:27:35,790 --> 00:27:38,850 previous probably figured I was tight with the President and who 458 00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:42,510 knows, you know, him, him and me together. You know, remember 459 00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:45,840 previous was an establishment guy. He was flooding the zone 460 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,710 inside the White House with RNC people that were not necessarily 461 00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:52,980 loyal to the president, but were, you know, more loyal to 462 00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:57,030 Priebus. And so I think he looks at me and for that matter, not 463 00:27:57,030 --> 00:28:00,120 to take it so personally, to me, he looked at guys like Giuliani, 464 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,350 Chris Christie, John Lithgow was a Suffolk County Chairman out 465 00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:07,230 here on Long Island, he looked at all those people and said, 466 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:09,690 Okay, these are New Yorkers, I'm gonna do everything I can to 467 00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:12,330 block these New Yorkers from coming down here to Washington. 468 00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:15,810 And so, and he was successful doing that. So he slow rolled 469 00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:20,580 me. And he slow roll those guys, I was probably the only guy due 470 00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:24,660 to the determination of my personality and the persistence, 471 00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:30,000 where I was like a dog on a bone, I wouldn't let up until I 472 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,240 found my way through the door at the White House. And so you 473 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,780 know, and then once I got the job, I probably mishandled it in 474 00:28:36,780 --> 00:28:38,670 a number of different ways. You probably shouldn't start your 475 00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:42,450 first day at the White House with a chainsaw and a hockey 476 00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:45,600 mask from Jason's Friday the 13th movie, you know, once I 477 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,540 started the chainsaw, I went after those two guys with a 478 00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:50,910 vengeance. And I should have been more careful about that. 479 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:55,710 You go after abandoned in the book a little bit, not as much 480 00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:58,170 as you could. It's a lot of it's subtle. And which brings me to 481 00:28:58,170 --> 00:29:01,350 the question. That brings me to the question of you claim a 482 00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:03,510 claim and I don't want to use that word claim because I don't 483 00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:07,020 like it. But you say you're, you're a class clown. 484 00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:11,370 And I'm a class clown. Or he was a class clown. 485 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:13,170 No, you were a class clown. Yeah, I 486 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,170 was a prankster in school. No question about that. I 487 00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:18,120 had you still? Well, 488 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,860 I don't know. I look I had I had a reasonable high IQ and I had 489 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:26,940 an okay work ethic. I got serious once I got to college, 490 00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:30,180 which helped me get into Harvard Law School, but you know, I 491 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,000 don't know I play for laughs there's no question about that I 492 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,540 have. There's an entertainment streak in my personality. You 493 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:39,420 can see that there's some irreverence in the book in terms 494 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,800 of the way I describe certain situations myself included. But 495 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,160 I would say that Ben and you know that he was he was a guy 496 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,670 when he thought he needed you. He was very polite, very 497 00:29:50,670 --> 00:29:55,020 seductive, but he was a guy when he didn't need you. You were a 498 00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:59,850 disposable piece of tissue. And so all of that stuff is coming 499 00:29:59,850 --> 00:30:03,450 back. act to roost on Bannon now, you know, he's, he's Spitz. 500 00:30:03,450 --> 00:30:06,780 arised. Okay, and what do I mean by that when Eliot Spitzer went 501 00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:11,220 down 10 years ago, because he was so mean and nasty to so many 502 00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:14,820 people, there was nobody there to save him. And so he Spitz 503 00:30:14,820 --> 00:30:18,330 arised. And now he's going to rallies where five or 10 people 504 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,500 around him and, you know, he's he's lost an element of his self 505 00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:27,690 proclaimed guru nature. And, and so look, I mean, but for me, I 506 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:30,780 thought he's just very dishonest. He's an unbelievable 507 00:30:30,780 --> 00:30:34,170 leaker. If you look at what the President said about him, and 508 00:30:34,170 --> 00:30:38,610 the press release in January of 2018, it was virtually identical 509 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,000 to what I was saying about him. Unfortunately, I got caught on a 510 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,540 hot mic, which is fine. But, you know, the journalist took it 511 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:49,470 totally out of context. I, he was trying to get me to do a 512 00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:52,710 profile with him in his magazine. And I'm like, not self 513 00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:55,620 promotional like that, like Steve is and then I used an 514 00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:58,500 inappropriate word. And he said, Okay, I've hit the jackpot here. 515 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,000 Let me run this over to CNN and exaggerate what happened. So 516 00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:07,080 it's fine. I'm a big boy, I paid the price. But my job. I write 517 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,630 about it honestly, in the book, I'm very accountable for the 518 00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:10,230 mistake. 519 00:31:10,650 --> 00:31:13,530 But actually, you don't write about it. I don't think you're 520 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,820 necessarily as firm as you could have been. I mean, that was a 521 00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:21,630 chickenshit thing that happened from a journalist perspective. 522 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:24,150 Well, I I generally speaking, it doesn't happen. But no, 523 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,870 it's how we Kurt said in 40 years in Washington, he's never 524 00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:31,650 seen a journalist. Do that to a governmental officials. So but 525 00:31:31,650 --> 00:31:34,410 you know, that's okay. There's a first time for everything. I 526 00:31:34,410 --> 00:31:37,290 made the mistake by talking to the guy, right, so I'm gonna 527 00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:39,570 have to own that. shouldn't talk to him. 528 00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:45,300 That back to Bannon. Yeah. Early in the book, you say that Steve 529 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:51,180 Bannon, you compare him to a blood sucking vampire bat? Yeah. 530 00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:54,330 I mean, when later in the book, you have this sense, which is 531 00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:57,270 the only thing I've actually excerpted for this interview, 532 00:31:57,270 --> 00:32:00,060 because I thought it was it was pretty funny. Because it was 533 00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:05,970 subtle. It was like it was it was kind of literate, but at the 534 00:32:05,970 --> 00:32:10,320 same time rude. Act of leaking addiction never ends. Well. 535 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,060 banants sure didn't remember how he looked leaving the White 536 00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:21,030 House. A Harvard educated Cook, draped in contemporary hobo. 537 00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:21,660 Yeah. 538 00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:23,310 That's pretty good, though. Right. 539 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:26,610 I thought it was quite good. I think it was you actually put 540 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:30,120 some thought into it. Because he, he's wrote the book around 541 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:30,420 that. 542 00:32:30,510 --> 00:32:33,480 Yeah, a couple of cents. Yeah, he's a cook. He's ultimately a 543 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,090 cook. At the end of the day, he went to Harvard Business School, 544 00:32:36,090 --> 00:32:39,960 he worked at Goldman Sachs. He was in Hollywood. I mean, he's 545 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,380 hit the triangulation of every one of those nexuses. And then 546 00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:48,840 he tries to pretend that he's some outsider that's focused on 547 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,620 ethnocentrism and white nationalism. I mean, I think the 548 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:57,030 guys are incredibly flawed guy, but wickedly smart and very well 549 00:32:57,030 --> 00:33:01,320 read. I, I made a joke at one of the college campuses is that you 550 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,460 know, if you ever are doubting God, or if you falling into the 551 00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:09,420 trap of atheism, just remember this as seductive and as smart 552 00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:13,920 as Steve Bannon is. God made him so ugly, and made him dress so 553 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,150 inappropriately, that his ideas will never be taken seriously, 554 00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:22,170 thankfully, by the civilization so. So to me, he's not my cup of 555 00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:25,530 tea. I've offered to debate Steve Bannon. I've offered to 556 00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:29,700 debate Ryan's Priebus any place anywhere. And I'll continue to 557 00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:32,520 wait on that you you you it I think you know he is I was on 558 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,790 his radio show. He said that he's in love with Ryan's peers 559 00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:38,940 is one of his best friends is no great. Invite writes Priebus on 560 00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:42,630 your radio show with me. Let's have an honest and candid 561 00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:45,690 conversation about what he's really like with the people that 562 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,840 he worked with inside the White House. You think that'll happen 563 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,010 my brother? Okay, hell hell will freeze over before that happens. 564 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:53,610 Well, I 565 00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:56,010 there's no reason for him to want to do that. Now of course, 566 00:33:56,010 --> 00:33:58,020 there is Rance Priebus. Now, 567 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,600 I don't even know I apparently I think he went back to his 568 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,990 Wisconsin law firm. And I think he's keeping a low profile. 569 00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:07,530 Because, you know, I mean, he brought up a lot of people. I 570 00:34:07,530 --> 00:34:11,010 mean, it's not forget about just me. He just burped up a lot of 571 00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:15,000 people. And so he exposed his full blown insecurity in that 572 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,100 job and he exposed, exposed his low levels of low self esteem 573 00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:24,120 and low self confidence. AAA players go out and try to hire a 574 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,050 plus people. A C players like a guy like him, they'll they'll 575 00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:29,130 hire D's and F's. 576 00:34:30,810 --> 00:34:32,310 Why did Trump hire him? 577 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,650 Well, I think Trump felt that he had. He had helped them with the 578 00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,220 apparatus and technology around the RNC. And I think Trump felt 579 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,140 a level of loyalty. And Trump also felt that if he had him in 580 00:34:46,140 --> 00:34:49,170 the White House, he was tight with Paul Ryan and he was a 581 00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:53,520 member of that Washington sediment that he could help him 582 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,720 drain the swamp. But what the mistake that the President made 583 00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,560 is that he put a cesspool operator In the most important 584 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,230 job in the system, and so all that guy was doing was pouring 585 00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:06,810 more sewage into the system, you're not you're not going to 586 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:11,460 drain the swamp. By bringing a cesspool operator that's lived 587 00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:14,880 in the swamp for 15 years in to drain the swamp, they're not 588 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,510 going to do it. They Their goal is to outlast you. And to 589 00:35:18,510 --> 00:35:22,320 continue to work the lobbying and currying of favor business 590 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,950 inside of Washington to line their own pockets. They're not 591 00:35:25,980 --> 00:35:28,290 they're not there to serve the American people. The American 592 00:35:28,290 --> 00:35:30,990 people are under that thing. The American people know that. One 593 00:35:30,990 --> 00:35:33,060 of the biggest reasons they had to get me out of there. I don't 594 00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:37,320 know if you saw my first press conference. But the my critics 595 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,780 of my first press conference like you were too honest, can't 596 00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:42,720 you can't talk the truth like that from the White House 597 00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:47,040 podium. What are you nuts? And that's America, but the American 598 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,860 people know it that, you know, one thing that the President has 599 00:35:49,860 --> 00:35:54,960 done for the society is he's fully exposed. The cockroaches 600 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,480 that live in the kitchen known as Washington. Okay, the lights 601 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,780 are on now. They're crawling around stunned that they're 602 00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:03,750 being caught with all their nonsense. 603 00:36:04,589 --> 00:36:07,229 We'll try it well. Subject good cockroaches, do you think the 604 00:36:07,229 --> 00:36:08,399 White House was bugged? 605 00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:19,440 I don't know. I would I gotta believe no. But I will say this, 606 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,960 they dismantled the Oval Office in August of 2017 and rebuilt 607 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,340 it. And so I'm hoping that the answer is no, I don't know the 608 00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:29,670 answer. 609 00:36:32,070 --> 00:36:35,640 It just seems like a lot of the stories that the media was 610 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,280 picking up on always predate the moment that the Oval Office was 611 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:45,780 reconstructed. just coincidence, maybe I'm not sure 612 00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:47,820 coincidence. But it's also previous and bad. And they were 613 00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:51,360 60 to 70% of the leaks, once they were removed, the leaks 614 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,900 really did go down dramatically, still leaking. Every White House 615 00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:58,590 is going to leak but it's not not leaking with that level of 616 00:36:59,430 --> 00:37:02,550 animosity and that level of venom towards each other. You 617 00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:03,870 know that that's gone down a lot. 618 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,870 You, what do you think of the New York Times hit piece on 619 00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:13,710 Trump, which have you read in great detail, there's the recent 620 00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:16,770 one, where Trump apparently never had any money to begin 621 00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:20,010 with. And it was pretty much financed by his father Fred. And 622 00:37:20,010 --> 00:37:24,360 if you read between the lines, it kind of implies against all 623 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,590 logic that Fred Trump was a multibillionaire that could just 624 00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:30,960 throw tons of money at his son. 625 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:37,470 Yeah, I mean, listen, I've seen the documentary active measures 626 00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:41,340 of he's apparently, he's a puppet of Vladimir Putin. And 627 00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:44,550 now he may, you know, he just siphoned all the money off from 628 00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:48,540 his dad illegally. And, you know, I've heard all of these 629 00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:51,720 different things. But if you really look closely at the 630 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,290 article, whatever happened there between him and his dad, it was 631 00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,960 clearly inside of the seam of the tax code. And I took 632 00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:07,770 taxation and law school, there's a very famous decision. The name 633 00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:11,490 of the justice is justice Lerner hand, you could Google the 634 00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:15,120 decision. It's about what you're allowed to do and not allowed to 635 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,600 do as it relates to the tax code. And, and justice hand 636 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,450 basically says you can be aggressive, as long as you're 637 00:38:21,450 --> 00:38:24,750 inside the seam of the code. And so I think that they're 638 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:28,710 stretching things a little bit in that story. I don't know if 639 00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:31,560 the President got a million dollars from his father to start 640 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,350 his business or $413 million to start his business. But it 641 00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:40,020 doesn't really matter to the average American. I think that's 642 00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:42,660 the point the average American views him as a very successful 643 00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:47,250 guy. He was successful in real estate, he had a rise and fall, 644 00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:50,760 which I described in the book, and then he rose again. So 645 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,160 there's a level of force and determination in his 646 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,130 personality. He went on to become a television star. I 647 00:38:56,130 --> 00:38:58,860 don't think anybody can take that away from him. And then 648 00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:02,640 from the process of being a television star, he switched 649 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,750 over to American politics, and in 17 short months, became the 650 00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:09,450 American president. So, you know, I'd like to think that 651 00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:13,050 given the high profile nature of the President's life over the 652 00:39:13,050 --> 00:39:16,920 last 40 years, if he was really doing something aggressively 653 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,760 nefarious as what is being described, he's such a high 654 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,690 profile target for a DEA that wants to be the mayor or the 655 00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:29,190 governor they want a god at after him with a vengeance. So I 656 00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:33,570 put about the same level of weight on that story as most 657 00:39:33,570 --> 00:39:35,850 Americans do, which is you know, moving on 658 00:39:36,540 --> 00:39:40,590 I think that's probably what the reaction was. But it was 659 00:39:40,590 --> 00:39:45,120 followed up then by in an anonymous op ed which was rare 660 00:39:46,020 --> 00:39:49,320 Britain by some suppose it insider in the White House. Do 661 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,990 you think that was an insider in the White House you think what 662 00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:54,600 do you what's your take on that and who you think might be so 663 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:54,720 you 664 00:39:54,720 --> 00:40:00,570 know, I got an 11 day PhD and Washington scum beggary Okay, so 665 00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:04,110 I can tell you that there's no way a senior guy would have 666 00:40:04,110 --> 00:40:06,870 written that. And so what they would have used as a cut out, 667 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,650 they would have gotten one of the junior guys to write that 668 00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:14,010 and put it in there. And so what that is, is that's a, that's a 669 00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:19,200 cockroach survival note. And so the the chef is in the kitchen, 670 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,650 he's going to be here for four to eight years. But my fellow 671 00:40:22,650 --> 00:40:26,730 cockroaches I'm going to survive him and so will you. And when I 672 00:40:26,730 --> 00:40:30,810 returned back to cockroach land after serving this guy, I want 673 00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:34,410 you not to treat me poorly. And that and that's basically what 674 00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:37,800 that was. That was a to me, it was the most dishonest and most 675 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,600 disloyal thing. You're serving the elected President of the 676 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,260 United States, the leader of the free world, you may not like 677 00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:50,220 him. But if you don't like him, and you don't like his policies, 678 00:40:50,250 --> 00:40:54,090 then leave. I just think that that was the most dishonest, 679 00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:58,260 most disingenuous thing. And again, a another example of why 680 00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:00,600 the American people actually hate the swamp and they hate 681 00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:02,070 every aspect of the swamp. 682 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,030 What's the New York Times grudge against Trump? 683 00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:11,880 He has been right and they have been wrong. That's the that's 684 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:17,790 the grudge. They they had a circular two years ago. They had 685 00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:22,710 a seven or eight page circular on the case against Donald 686 00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:26,040 Trump. And it wasn't just an editorial. It was like an eight 687 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:32,130 page circular that they inserted into the newspaper. And, and 688 00:41:32,130 --> 00:41:34,440 then they had to apologize to him after the election. They had 689 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,370 to apologize to default. You follow what I'm saying? So yeah, 690 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:40,860 I mean, I mean, this was a form of the apology. 691 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,340 While the the apology was we were to bellicose with our 692 00:41:44,340 --> 00:41:48,090 rhetoric, we were too negative. I mean, they've ramped it up 693 00:41:48,090 --> 00:41:53,190 subsequent to that, but I'm just saying that the New York Times 694 00:41:53,550 --> 00:41:56,820 is they don't like the President's policies. They don't 695 00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:58,830 like the President's personality. And they don't like 696 00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:01,170 the fact that President is winning. And they've been on the 697 00:42:01,170 --> 00:42:04,500 losing side of the argument for the last 36 months. So so 698 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:07,110 they're, they're gonna continue to be in that camp. And he's 699 00:42:07,110 --> 00:42:11,760 done a masterful job of getting these left leaning media 700 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,530 establishments to hate his guts. He has figured out by throwing 701 00:42:16,530 --> 00:42:21,420 Molotov cocktails or puffery or exaggerating statements, they're 702 00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:26,400 going to act like hall monitors, fact checking him and the whole, 703 00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:30,570 you know, Charlie Brown teacher about what blah, blah, you know, 704 00:42:30,570 --> 00:42:33,960 that's what they're doing on their television shows. And he's 705 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,370 laughing. He's laughing. He knows that he's got them totally 706 00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:43,470 distracted. And as John Stewart said, the other day, that he has 707 00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:46,260 figured out that he may be a narcissist, but they're as 708 00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:49,800 narcissistic as him. And he's made it about them, and they 709 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,690 love talking about them on their shows. And so that was a 710 00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:57,540 masterful thing that he's done so far, masterful. 711 00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:04,770 You liked stones movie Wall Street. I did mention this in 712 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,070 the book I did. But you didn't mention the Wolf of Wall Street. 713 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,750 I would like to know I mean, Wall Street is the Gordon Gekko 714 00:43:12,750 --> 00:43:16,050 movie for anyone doesn't remember it with greed is good. 715 00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:20,760 And all those sorts of cliches. and The Wolf of Wall Street, of 716 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,450 course, was more about the excesses. What did you what? And 717 00:43:24,450 --> 00:43:27,960 you're in the business. So what do you think about comparing 718 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,000 those two movies? What do you think of the Wolf of Wall 719 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:30,540 Street? 720 00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:33,780 Well, the reason I liked the Wall Street movie is that I was 721 00:43:33,810 --> 00:43:38,460 a young man, I was in my mid 20s, when that movie came out. I 722 00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:43,200 was 23 or 24. And I was aspiring to go to Wall Street. And so 723 00:43:43,470 --> 00:43:47,460 even though it was a cautionary tale about greed and excess, I 724 00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,890 thought it was well presented and Michael Douglas won the 725 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:54,900 Academy Award for it. And in the second movie, Oliver Stone came 726 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:57,420 to me and gave me the opportunity to play myself in 727 00:43:57,420 --> 00:44:00,810 the movie. And so there's pictures of me in my office here 728 00:44:00,810 --> 00:44:04,320 with Josh Brolin and, and Michael Douglas with my kids. 729 00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:10,320 And so I learned a lot about the artistic interpretation of Wall 730 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,160 Street. And I My first book was called good by Gordon Gekko, how 731 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,130 to find your fortune without losing your soul. And basically, 732 00:44:17,130 --> 00:44:20,100 it was a it was titled that way to talk about the fact that 733 00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:22,620 greed actually isn't good. And you have to take a long term 734 00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:26,910 approach to things in the world of financial services. And so I 735 00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:30,570 am fond of that movie for those sentimental reasons. Um, I was 736 00:44:30,570 --> 00:44:34,080 asked to be in The Wolf of Wall Street, I have a good 737 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,090 relationship with Leo DiCaprio and Bo Deedle, who played one of 738 00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:42,510 the roles in the movie, and I elected not to be in that movie 739 00:44:42,510 --> 00:44:47,940 because that movie was not about an interpretation. There was a 740 00:44:47,940 --> 00:44:51,510 fact set related to this guy, Jordan Belfort, where he 741 00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:54,690 literally did everything that you're not supposed to do as a 742 00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:58,980 money manager. He fleeced the people. He sold them things that 743 00:44:59,730 --> 00:45:04,440 were are literally dreams, pipe dreams. And he did many, many 744 00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:08,490 illegal things. And so, for me, I'm not saying there isn't a 745 00:45:08,490 --> 00:45:11,880 darker side to Wall Street, there clearly is, I believe 746 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,130 there's a darker side to journalism, there's a dark, 747 00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:17,490 darker side to medicine, unfortunately, we're human 748 00:45:17,490 --> 00:45:21,600 beings and darkness lives in a lot of different sectors of the 749 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,130 economy. But I was not a supporter of that movie. Because 750 00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:28,020 one of the problems with a movie like that, because it is 751 00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:32,250 factual. It's it's back to that cliche that one bad apple could 752 00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:35,640 spoil the whole basket of apples. And so, to me, you know, 753 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,180 I've had, it's my 30th year on Wall Street, but for my brief 754 00:45:39,180 --> 00:45:43,830 interregnum at the White House. And by and large, we've tried to 755 00:45:43,830 --> 00:45:46,620 do a good job. The reason why we're running $10 billion, is we 756 00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:49,440 have a good track record. And we're honest people. So that's 757 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,790 the reason why I compare and contrast the two things. 758 00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:56,610 And the early days, you were a supporter of Obama in some way, 759 00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:00,510 because you raised money for him after you met him at the 760 00:46:00,510 --> 00:46:01,380 University Club. 761 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,850 Yep. Why had I had gone to school with him? I can't 762 00:46:05,850 --> 00:46:08,130 honestly say we're close friends in school or anything like that. 763 00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:11,070 But I had a lot of friends of mine at Harvard Law School, that 764 00:46:11,070 --> 00:46:15,930 were friends with him, I was less involved with politics. At 765 00:46:15,930 --> 00:46:20,070 that time, I was a right of center person. And I'm 766 00:46:20,070 --> 00:46:23,430 reasonably far left on social issues. I believe people should 767 00:46:23,850 --> 00:46:26,520 be able to express I don't think life liberty and the pursuit of 768 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,010 happiness is only for straight people. I think that everyone 769 00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:32,520 should have that opportunity. And so when he presented 770 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,970 himself, I said, Okay, that seems like you guys like him? 771 00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:38,700 You know him personally. And I said to myself, rhetorically, 772 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,180 how many times in my life, am I going to know somebody that's 773 00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:44,610 actually running for president and could possibly be the 774 00:46:44,610 --> 00:46:47,490 president? Little did I know that that would that wouldn't be 775 00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:50,580 the first time you know, and ended up working in the White 776 00:46:50,580 --> 00:46:53,490 House for a short period. But but you know, when he started 777 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,680 becoming more progressively left driven on the economy, and more 778 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,430 progressively left driven on business, I sort of returned to 779 00:47:02,430 --> 00:47:04,770 my Republican roots. But I do like the president. I like 780 00:47:04,770 --> 00:47:07,680 President Obama had a lot of respect for him in his life. 781 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,790 He's the Jackie Robinson of American politics. And we may 782 00:47:11,790 --> 00:47:15,300 not agree on everything related to the business side of things 783 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:19,350 or the economy, but I am happy with the social progress that 784 00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:20,970 was created during his administration. 785 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:26,340 You use the phrase, he slammed dunked you in the book, maybe 786 00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:30,870 twice? Yeah. And it's it was it even in context, I can't figure 787 00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:32,040 out what you're talking about. 788 00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:36,090 Well, I was on a, I was on a television show with him in 789 00:47:36,090 --> 00:47:42,810 2010. It was at the CNBC Town Hall, public life at the Newseum 790 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,170 down the block on Pennsylvania Avenue. And he came in there and 791 00:47:46,170 --> 00:47:50,670 they were interviewing him. And I was an audience participant. I 792 00:47:50,670 --> 00:47:54,900 asked him a question. I said, Mr. President, nice to see you 793 00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:58,560 again. We reacquainted ourselves. And then I said, When 794 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,950 are you going to stop whacking Wall Street with a pin Yatta 795 00:48:01,950 --> 00:48:04,680 stick? So the first thing is if you're an Italian American, 796 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,470 don't use the word wack on live TV in front of the President. I 797 00:48:07,470 --> 00:48:10,050 think that was mistake number one. And then mistake number 798 00:48:10,050 --> 00:48:13,710 two, is you know, he was adamant that Wall Street was a big cause 799 00:48:13,710 --> 00:48:17,640 of the financial crisis. And so he came back at me very hard. 800 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,340 And of course, he's the president. I'm not I didn't get 801 00:48:20,340 --> 00:48:24,480 a chance to rebut them. And so he metaphorically slam dunk me 802 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,130 on that live television show. So much so that Jon Stewart that 803 00:48:29,130 --> 00:48:33,180 night on Comedy Central lampoon me to the great delight of my 804 00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:39,540 teenage children at that time. What do you say? John Stuart, 805 00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:40,020 basically, 806 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:40,860 what did 807 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,420 Obama's oh what did Obama say? Obama said that. I was wrong 808 00:48:45,420 --> 00:48:48,630 about him hitting Wall Street with a Vinyasa stick and that 809 00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:51,900 Wall Street was the real cause of the problem of the crisis. 810 00:48:52,290 --> 00:48:56,100 And that the greed on Wall Street did overcome wisdom. And 811 00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:02,700 it was a pretty heavy, healthy invective at our industry, not 812 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:08,850 necessarily me personally. But he came back very hard at that, 813 00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:12,270 at that question, and in hindsight, I was trying to lob 814 00:49:12,270 --> 00:49:14,520 in a softball. I thought he was gonna say, well, there's 815 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,640 definitely a nexus between Wall Street and, and Main Street, and 816 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,330 we have to keep that harmony, but he was not hearing it. You 817 00:49:21,330 --> 00:49:23,670 know, that was playing on you. Yeah, exactly. Right. And by the 818 00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:28,650 way, that was a month or so before the 2010 midterms. And so 819 00:49:28,650 --> 00:49:31,410 being a politician, he was like a dog with a bone and he was he 820 00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:32,730 was going at that thing very hard. 821 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,370 You do this thing called a salt salt Conference, which is a 822 00:49:38,370 --> 00:49:44,520 gathering of I had fun hedge fund folk. Yep. You book Bill 823 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:45,390 Clinton once 824 00:49:45,450 --> 00:49:49,260 I did, I booked President Clinton. I've had John Brennan. 825 00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:55,980 I've had Joe, Vice President Joe Biden. I've had James Carville. 826 00:49:56,610 --> 00:50:00,630 I've had Donald Brazil I but I've of course I've had Governor 827 00:50:00,630 --> 00:50:05,160 Romney, George Walker Bush, Tony Blair. I really tried to make 828 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,600 the salt conference and all party, all ideological 829 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,250 experience. I'm not looking to make it a conservative 830 00:50:14,730 --> 00:50:17,160 conference event or anything like that. I may have certain 831 00:50:17,460 --> 00:50:20,370 conservative ideas, but I also brought the Human Rights 832 00:50:20,370 --> 00:50:24,720 Campaign guys who were working on the legalization of gay 833 00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:28,140 marriage in the US. And, you know, I'm a believer in that. 834 00:50:28,140 --> 00:50:31,170 So, you know, I might, I mean, I guess the one of the main 835 00:50:31,170 --> 00:50:34,410 reasons I could never run for office, the fact that, you know, 836 00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:37,200 thank God, it would like to keep my family together and stay 837 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,350 married. But another reason is, I don't fit ideologically in 838 00:50:40,350 --> 00:50:43,050 either one of these parties. You know, I do 839 00:50:43,050 --> 00:50:45,240 ask about the Clinton thing, because I was wondering if you 840 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,280 recall what his speaking fee was. 841 00:50:48,510 --> 00:50:53,070 At that time, it was a lot less than it is now. I think he's two 842 00:50:53,070 --> 00:50:57,090 and a quarter now. He was probably one and a quarter 150 843 00:50:57,090 --> 00:50:59,460 Back then remember, that's almost 10 years ago, though. 844 00:51:00,090 --> 00:51:02,640 That's 1,500,000? No, 845 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,710 I'm sorry. 150? Us 1000? Probably he's probably 225,000. 846 00:51:07,710 --> 00:51:13,110 Today. Those are probably That's not. That's not me breaking any 847 00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:14,160 rules of confidentiality. 848 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:21,150 Those are? Well, you know, this I've been I've been represented 849 00:51:21,150 --> 00:51:24,900 by a number of speakers bureaus. And I know what the what the 850 00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:29,190 rules are. And if you want to book bill, if you want to find 851 00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:32,250 out Bill Clinton speaking fee, create some sort of a function 852 00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:34,830 and then call one of them and ask them what it cost to get him 853 00:51:34,830 --> 00:51:36,150 and you'll get that number, I think 854 00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:39,540 that says, I think that's his going rate right around now. I'd 855 00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:42,750 rather he did a very good job. He was articulate and 856 00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:48,030 thoughtful. And he answered questions. And, again, you know, 857 00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:51,030 you may not agree with everything that he has to say, 858 00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:54,240 and there may be elements of what he had to say, related to 859 00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:59,730 the economic stewardship of the 1990s under his watch. But you 860 00:51:59,730 --> 00:52:04,800 know, at the end of the day, I think it's a valuable voice. You 861 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,200 know, I would I would as an example, I don't know if he 862 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,330 would ever be available for this, but I would be interested 863 00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:13,170 in booking President Obama. No problem. And of course, at some 864 00:52:13,170 --> 00:52:14,070 point, President Trump, 865 00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:18,480 I'm, I'm thinking he's going to be available. Okay. 866 00:52:18,510 --> 00:52:20,640 Well, I'll have to see I'm sure. I'm sure. It'll be a lot of 867 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,250 dough, though. That'll be another consideration for me. 868 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,730 Can you explain the Trump Cruz relationship? 869 00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:31,980 Um, no, I actually can't. I mean, I don't think anybody can, 870 00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:38,640 but I can I can offer up some some things about life and the 871 00:52:38,670 --> 00:52:43,740 political expediency I think that the scarring and the 872 00:52:43,740 --> 00:52:47,790 battering in terms of the way these guys went out each other 873 00:52:47,790 --> 00:52:52,890 in 2016, has been subordinated to political survivorship and 874 00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:56,850 the President's need to have somebody that's right, leaning 875 00:52:57,510 --> 00:53:01,830 in a red state and keep the red state red. And so they've 876 00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:05,310 subordinated some of their personal invective towards each 877 00:53:05,310 --> 00:53:09,780 other. And it goes back to that age old adage that politics 878 00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:13,620 makes strange bedfellows so you could read what they've said 879 00:53:13,620 --> 00:53:17,100 about each other. And you would say, Okay, those guys are 880 00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:19,380 probably not gonna be talking to each other anytime soon. But yet 881 00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:22,860 they had a rally, where there were 10s of 1000s of people at 882 00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:26,790 the rally in Houston. So it's gonna be close. But I do think 883 00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:31,110 Ted, Senator Cruz wins in Texas. If you look at the latest poll, 884 00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:33,060 do you have a publicist? 885 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,210 I have a PR person for skybridge. I had a publicist 886 00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:42,840 coming out of the White House, because I thought I needed 887 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,630 somebody to bounce some ideas off of in terms of how I was 888 00:53:45,630 --> 00:53:49,080 going to recover from that. Media excoriation, but that was 889 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,020 more of like a crisis management person than anything else. 890 00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:56,790 You mentioned you have a restaurant. Yep. What is it? 891 00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:57,450 What's the call? Yeah, 892 00:53:57,450 --> 00:54:00,120 so I have a restaurant on 44th street called The Hunt and Fish 893 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,930 Club. If you know anything about the mafia, I named it after John 894 00:54:03,930 --> 00:54:06,540 Gotti social club. He used to call it the Bergen County Hunt 895 00:54:06,540 --> 00:54:09,450 and Fish Club. So I figured if they're going to stereotype me 896 00:54:09,450 --> 00:54:12,930 in our civilization, why not? Why not put it went up, put that 897 00:54:12,930 --> 00:54:16,080 on my restaurant, so it's a great steak, steak and seafood 898 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,980 place. It's located in the theater district on West 44th 899 00:54:19,980 --> 00:54:24,240 Street, 125 West 44th Street, it's got great ratings, very 900 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:28,770 strong clientele. It's a beautiful setting. And pursuant 901 00:54:28,770 --> 00:54:31,890 to the free market and market based economics, I made the chef 902 00:54:32,220 --> 00:54:34,140 and owner of the place because he's that good. 903 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:40,380 Always a good idea. Hey, man. Can I get I'm gonna name a bunch 904 00:54:40,380 --> 00:54:42,750 of people. And if you can just give me a quick response because 905 00:54:42,750 --> 00:54:46,200 we're getting near the end here. Yeah, sure. Just tell me what 906 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,830 you think of. Kind of I think we already know what you think of 907 00:54:49,830 --> 00:54:54,000 Priebus and Bannon. Yeah. Kellyanne Conway. 908 00:54:55,230 --> 00:55:00,330 nice person, very loyal to the President. Great messenger. I 909 00:55:00,330 --> 00:55:05,340 think she clearly helped him win the presidency. 52% of the white 910 00:55:05,340 --> 00:55:08,970 women voters voted for President Trump. And I think you could 911 00:55:08,970 --> 00:55:11,610 really point to her as being one of the reasons why. 912 00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:17,009 I used to follow Kellyanne Conway before she was Kellyanne 913 00:55:17,009 --> 00:55:22,169 Conway in the 90s. And she was one of the sharpest widths on on 914 00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:23,819 talk, talk shows no, 915 00:55:23,850 --> 00:55:26,700 no question. Very impressive, very impressive person, 916 00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:28,860 a Jared Kushner, 917 00:55:29,759 --> 00:55:34,559 super smart. He's shifted into a down gear to be a little bit 918 00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:39,119 less high profile, because of the flak that he was taking from 919 00:55:39,209 --> 00:55:44,429 John Kelly. But I think he was very instrumental in the the 920 00:55:44,429 --> 00:55:47,189 renegotiation of NAFTA. And I think he's helping the president 921 00:55:47,189 --> 00:55:50,879 on the China trade issue as well. And I mean, he's obviously 922 00:55:50,879 --> 00:55:52,439 a very loyal, very smart guy. 923 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:54,480 John Kelly, 924 00:55:55,530 --> 00:55:59,010 you know, I applaud his service the United States for two years 925 00:55:59,010 --> 00:56:02,490 in the Marine Corps. He also lost his child who is a Gold 926 00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:07,920 Star family member. And so I applaud him for his record in 927 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,800 the military. But he's just in my opinion, as I expressed in my 928 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,610 book, he's just not well suited his management style. And the 929 00:56:14,610 --> 00:56:17,460 militancy of his management style is not well suited for a 930 00:56:17,460 --> 00:56:20,610 civilian organization, and I think he's hurt the morale 931 00:56:20,610 --> 00:56:21,420 inside the White House. 932 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,820 In the book, you say he hates Trump? 933 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,210 Oh, there's no question about that. I mean, I don't, I don't 934 00:56:27,210 --> 00:56:31,440 think anybody believes that he likes him. He's made it clear to 935 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:37,110 people outside the doors of the West Wing. So it's not like I'm 936 00:56:37,110 --> 00:56:43,080 saying something that isn't true. Ivanka, ridiculously 937 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,520 smart, gifted person, great public speaker, obviously, she's 938 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:53,550 got some elegance and class, to her style and personality. And I 939 00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:55,920 think she's invaluable to the President. I think she's helped 940 00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:02,190 him in so many different ways. Mnuchin, extremely competent, 941 00:57:03,540 --> 00:57:07,770 very cautious guy has done a good job of pushing through the 942 00:57:07,770 --> 00:57:13,800 tax reform and other regulatory reform. And extraordinarily 943 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,600 bright and again, he's an unsung hero of the Trump campaign, 944 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,900 because he was the fundraising chair and he did a great job on 945 00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:22,740 the fundraising side, 946 00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:24,330 General Flynn, 947 00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:30,180 an American hero, the key got treated badly. I'll just echo 948 00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:34,020 what President Trump said. I don't know all of the facts of 949 00:57:34,020 --> 00:57:37,680 the case. But I think he's, he's a guy like a great deal. I hold 950 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,840 them a very high personal regard, and I hope him and his 951 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:40,680 family are okay. 952 00:57:41,310 --> 00:57:43,050 The writer Michael Wolf, 953 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:50,220 is a total liar and fabricator and just this honest 954 00:57:50,340 --> 00:57:53,880 representation, so he would be like the Jordan Belfort of 955 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,820 journalism, you know, he would be like the guy. If you're an 956 00:57:56,820 --> 00:57:59,130 honest journalists, you'd look at you're looking at a guy like 957 00:57:59,130 --> 00:58:01,410 him and shake your head. very dishonest guy, 958 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:03,150 Sean Hannity. 959 00:58:03,870 --> 00:58:08,040 He's one of my best friends. You know, we grew up very similarly 960 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,710 on Long Island, obviously endorsed the front cover of my 961 00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:15,390 book and the back cover for that matter. And he's a fighter shout 962 00:58:15,390 --> 00:58:17,940 out. He's a Street Fighter. And so when I wake up in the 963 00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:19,980 morning, say, Man, I gotta get to work because I know Sean's 964 00:58:19,980 --> 00:58:25,410 work in three times harder than me. Mueller don't know him. He's 965 00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:29,190 got an impeccable reputation and I do believe that whatever 966 00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:32,430 process is going on there, I think he will treat people 967 00:58:32,430 --> 00:58:35,160 fairly that's just based on reputation. Don't know him 968 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,960 personally. Call me just, you know, again, don't know him 969 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,170 personally, but seems very sanctimonious. He's another guy, 970 00:58:43,170 --> 00:58:46,200 I would love to debate because I read through his book, I can't 971 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,810 tell you honestly read the entire thing. But there's a lot 972 00:58:48,810 --> 00:58:52,890 of sanctimony there and there's a lot of righteousness. And no 973 00:58:52,890 --> 00:58:56,820 one is that infallible. So, you know, when you look through my 974 00:58:56,820 --> 00:58:59,730 book, you'll see that I'm citing a lot of my mistakes and 975 00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:02,640 missteps in life and things I wish I could have done better. 976 00:59:03,570 --> 00:59:06,600 And so I just think there's a lot of sanctimony and, and Comey 977 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:11,190 spoke and, you know, it's that it's just too disingenuous for 978 00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:11,460 me, 979 00:59:11,790 --> 00:59:13,230 George papadopolis. I 980 00:59:13,589 --> 00:59:19,349 don't know him. He probably got set up. That's what it feels 981 00:59:19,349 --> 00:59:22,169 like. And I think the court system knew that which is why 982 00:59:22,169 --> 00:59:23,759 they gave him such a lenient sentence. 983 00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:26,190 Don, Jr. 984 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,530 Very good guy. super loyal to his dad down to earth. He's 985 00:59:31,530 --> 00:59:34,470 great campaigner. He's got a great message out there. I 986 00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:37,350 campaigned with Dawn in the month of September, throughout 987 00:59:37,350 --> 00:59:43,950 Pennsylvania. And Dan has a very high quality guy. Eric, I don't 988 00:59:43,950 --> 00:59:47,430 know Eric as well. We've generally interacted briefly, 989 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,180 sometimes on the campaign and sometimes I enjoyed television 990 00:59:51,180 --> 00:59:54,630 appearances. But it comes at he comes across incredibly 991 00:59:54,630 --> 01:00:00,360 articulate, and Hope Hicks will hope and I were very post on the 992 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,190 campaign worked super hard on the campaign. And she's 993 01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:07,710 incredibly loyal to the family and to the President. She's got 994 01:00:07,710 --> 01:00:11,730 a great new job now. And I don't think anyone's ever said 995 01:00:11,730 --> 01:00:14,670 anything bad about Hope Hicks, super, super person. 996 01:00:15,420 --> 01:00:17,550 amorosa you know, 997 01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:20,700 amorosa bizarrely even though she said I cried like a little 998 01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:24,240 girl when I got fired, which I'll let, I'll let your 999 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,490 listeners determine whether or not I actually cried like a 1000 01:00:26,490 --> 01:00:30,120 little girl when I got fired. I like her, you know. So I mean, 1001 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:35,250 my attitude is amorosa came from nowhere. And I don't think he 1002 01:00:35,250 --> 01:00:37,980 should be firing a person like amorosa she worked for the 1003 01:00:37,980 --> 01:00:41,850 president for 14 years on and off by sticking her in the 1004 01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:44,100 Situation Room and leaving her there for two hours. I don't 1005 01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:46,950 think that's the right way to fire somebody like her so. So 1006 01:00:47,070 --> 01:00:50,730 I'm not surprised that the current vitriol that's going on 1007 01:00:51,570 --> 01:00:57,570 in the Trump Morosa relationship. I predict a a 1008 01:00:57,750 --> 01:01:01,260 comeback I Do I Do I predict that they'll figure it out horse 1009 01:01:01,290 --> 01:01:05,130 Scott Walker, very solid guys got a tough race and Wisconsin 1010 01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:09,390 did a good job for the state. Always found Scott to be one of 1011 01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:12,780 the more honest politicians. You know, he was often he was 1012 01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:15,750 friends with previous and when I called Scott explained to him 1013 01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:17,640 what previous was doing to me he was scratching his head. He 1014 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,520 said, This is just nonsensical. It wasn't good long term 1015 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,020 strategy on previous his part. 1016 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,330 Dr. Phil, 1017 01:01:25,530 --> 01:01:29,220 great guy. I went on there with my wife, my wife and I were on 1018 01:01:29,220 --> 01:01:32,160 the verge of divorce. Some of it was personal, wasn't just 1019 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,030 political as it's been reported. But we love each other trying to 1020 01:01:36,030 --> 01:01:40,800 patch it up. And Dr. Phil and Tony Robbins are friends of 1021 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,410 mine. And I have to tell you, they were instrumental helped me 1022 01:01:43,410 --> 01:01:46,410 keep my family together. So I love those two guys. 1023 01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:47,850 Schumer. 1024 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,030 I've always had a good relationship with Senator 1025 01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:54,600 Schumer and fully disclose to you that I have been one of his 1026 01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:59,250 donors. He's always been good to me. And he had a funny line. He 1027 01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:01,980 may not even remember this, but he said, We thought you were so 1028 01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:03,990 good at your press conference. We were looking for ways to kill 1029 01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:06,270 you. He said but the Republicans killed you before we could get 1030 01:02:06,270 --> 01:02:07,800 to you. I thought that was very funny. 1031 01:02:07,859 --> 01:02:10,349 Very, it's cute. Yeah, Pelosi. 1032 01:02:11,820 --> 01:02:14,550 So believe it or not, I've actually interacted with her her 1033 01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:19,410 her daughter is an award winning documentarian. And so I don't 1034 01:02:19,410 --> 01:02:24,060 believe in her political views. But I do have a respect for her 1035 01:02:24,060 --> 01:02:28,170 belief in her political views. And she's always been gracious 1036 01:02:28,170 --> 01:02:28,500 to me. 1037 01:02:32,130 --> 01:02:34,620 How about Duncan Hunter Do you run into him ever? 1038 01:02:34,650 --> 01:02:38,520 I haven't so I don't really I can't really comment on his from 1039 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:39,120 the paper but 1040 01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,370 I don't really know in your book you do mention some people I've 1041 01:02:41,370 --> 01:02:45,210 never heard of. Yeah guy and I think I didn't hear of Hope 1042 01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:49,380 Hicks right away either. Because no one has ever done a good flow 1043 01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:53,130 chart of White House right. It'd be nice if someone did just a 1044 01:02:53,130 --> 01:02:59,220 hint it for anyone Rona Graff and Johnny McEntee Who are these 1045 01:02:59,220 --> 01:02:59,490 people? 1046 01:02:59,490 --> 01:03:02,580 So Rana graph has been the President's assistant. She 1047 01:03:02,580 --> 01:03:05,340 stayed at Trump Tower in the Trump Organization, but for 1048 01:03:05,340 --> 01:03:08,820 probably 2530 years. She has been his personal secretary, 1049 01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:14,580 enormously talented person and a great person and Johnny McEntee 1050 01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:18,180 was the President's body guide throughout the campaign. And 1051 01:03:18,180 --> 01:03:21,720 he's now working on the re election. But he's a terrific 1052 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,830 guy, young kid, very, very smart. And was there from the 1053 01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:26,370 inception. 1054 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,040 What about John Brennan? 1055 01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:34,140 So John, I know he's spoken at our salt conference. You know, I 1056 01:03:34,140 --> 01:03:37,800 have a lot of respect for John. I know the President's sword 1057 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,650 them and John sword, the president, but I will remind 1058 01:03:40,650 --> 01:03:46,680 your listeners that he's been at a pivot point in all of the 1059 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,180 security related to anti terrorism since 911. And he's 1060 01:03:51,180 --> 01:03:54,810 made a great contribution to our society, and kept countless 1061 01:03:55,140 --> 01:03:59,040 innocent American citizens safe. And I wished that him in the 1062 01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,530 President would dial back the rhetoric towards each other. 1063 01:04:02,790 --> 01:04:03,960 What do you think is CNN 1064 01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:08,520 you know, they were rough on me. I write about it in the book 1065 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,970 where they were, they are still rough. They made up a story. We 1066 01:04:11,970 --> 01:04:15,450 still rough on me. But you know, they have a right to do that. I 1067 01:04:15,450 --> 01:04:18,060 believe in the First Amendment. I have no problem going over 1068 01:04:18,060 --> 01:04:21,450 there. It's like being a Yankee and Fenway Park, but I have no 1069 01:04:21,450 --> 01:04:24,450 problem going over there and articulating my view or my 1070 01:04:24,450 --> 01:04:27,630 opinion, but yeah, I mean, they're there. They're not the 1071 01:04:27,630 --> 01:04:29,970 President's favorite news organization, that's for sure. 1072 01:04:30,990 --> 01:04:34,350 MSNBC, probably a little fairer 1073 01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:38,790 than CMB CNN, believe it or not, I think that their coverage from 1074 01:04:38,790 --> 01:04:43,170 like, say nine o'clock to seven is probably more fair, more 1075 01:04:43,170 --> 01:04:46,920 straight up news, less editorial. isation even though 1076 01:04:46,980 --> 01:04:50,580 it is slanted to the left. Obviously, the evening stuff is 1077 01:04:50,610 --> 01:04:54,120 very left leaning. But listen, I mean, that's the business model. 1078 01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,490 Now there's left leaning and right leaning outlets. 1079 01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,470 What did you think of the Mitt Romney? The moment when he comes 1080 01:05:01,470 --> 01:05:05,940 out and trashes Trump with one of their really just excoriated 1081 01:05:05,970 --> 01:05:10,230 commentaries, calling him a criminal, or less, 1082 01:05:10,259 --> 01:05:15,119 I thought that was a mistake I suggested to MIT's body guy and 1083 01:05:15,149 --> 01:05:18,179 Chief of Staff Spencer Swick the day that he was making that 1084 01:05:18,179 --> 01:05:22,439 speech to please not make that speech. But I think that was a 1085 01:05:22,439 --> 01:05:26,069 mistake. And I think that that's MIT will go on to win the Senate 1086 01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:29,099 race in Utah. And hopefully he'll find a way to bridge that 1087 01:05:29,099 --> 01:05:32,159 gap. And work closely with the President. There are two great 1088 01:05:32,159 --> 01:05:35,579 guys. But man, they've got very different personalities. I think 1089 01:05:35,609 --> 01:05:37,409 that's me overstating the obvious. 1090 01:05:40,020 --> 01:05:43,080 What do you think you said that you follow a couple of these 1091 01:05:43,140 --> 01:05:47,400 economic cycles? Do you think that right now the way the 1092 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,740 markets acting, I also do a stock market thing I used to 1093 01:05:49,740 --> 01:05:53,280 write for the Forbes and Barron's and a number of other 1094 01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:58,350 published publications, I'm into cycles? Yep. Do you think that 1095 01:05:58,350 --> 01:06:04,860 the market right now is at a top, and it's kind of splashing 1096 01:06:04,860 --> 01:06:09,720 around up there, or it's creating a kind of a high bottom 1097 01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:14,010 line? I think it's more of a high bottom just because of what 1098 01:06:14,010 --> 01:06:17,550 I know of the economic stimulus and the furthering of that, and 1099 01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:21,990 how that's going to affect earnings. I do think the Fed 1100 01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:25,620 will be forced to slow down their rate rises. As these 1101 01:06:25,620 --> 01:06:29,760 interest sensitive areas of the economy start to slow down the 1102 01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,790 Fed, you'll start hearing from the Fed that they're moving back 1103 01:06:32,790 --> 01:06:37,050 to data dependency, as opposed to just quarterly or monthly 1104 01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:41,400 rate rises. And so I meant to say month, quarterly rate rises 1105 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:46,770 and so, so to me, I think we're at an interregnum, in a bull 1106 01:06:46,770 --> 01:06:49,140 market. I think the bull thesis is still intact. 1107 01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,100 After all these years, yeah, 1108 01:06:53,130 --> 01:06:56,160 yeah, exactly. It's 11 lavena. You know, remember, these things 1109 01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,820 don't die of old age, they die of deteriorating fundamentals. 1110 01:06:59,820 --> 01:07:02,850 And so we are cheating history. Your listeners probably know 1111 01:07:02,850 --> 01:07:06,030 this, but it's worth repeating. The American economy goes 1112 01:07:06,030 --> 01:07:11,010 through a recession once every eight or so years. And so we're 1113 01:07:11,010 --> 01:07:13,470 cheating history. Right now. We're in the 11th and a half 1114 01:07:13,470 --> 01:07:16,290 year of an expansion. But I still think we have some room to 1115 01:07:16,290 --> 01:07:20,400 go because of the way the tax stimulus is affecting our GDP. 1116 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,520 It's been a real pleasure to be on with you, though. Thank you. 1117 01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:24,570 Good questioner. 1118 01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:28,830 Well, I want to thank you for being on this interview. We do 1119 01:07:28,830 --> 01:07:31,500 these every so often, and we put them together. And as part of 1120 01:07:31,500 --> 01:07:34,950 the, our show process, we take a day off, and we put these 1121 01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:38,340 interviews on and that's, I read your book, I thought it was a 1122 01:07:38,370 --> 01:07:40,710 book I can easily recommend, I think people especially 1123 01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:43,230 travelers, you could read, probably read the book on a 1124 01:07:43,230 --> 01:07:44,070 round trip flight. 1125 01:07:44,100 --> 01:07:46,380 That's what I was hoping for exactly what I tried to create. 1126 01:07:46,380 --> 01:07:49,680 I tried to create a airport book where you're going to your 1127 01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:52,410 destination and returning home, you'll finish it. And hopefully 1128 01:07:52,410 --> 01:07:56,820 I've left you with some honest insight into what I saw at the 1129 01:07:56,820 --> 01:07:58,770 White House, but also during the campaign. 1130 01:07:59,250 --> 01:08:02,040 Yeah, it was very, very entertaining and had a lot of 1131 01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:06,990 good chunks of irony and other screwy things in there that the 1132 01:08:06,990 --> 01:08:09,060 gossips out there would love this book. I think you're gonna 1133 01:08:09,060 --> 01:08:11,580 have a good time reading it. I want to thank you for being on 1134 01:08:11,580 --> 01:08:14,790 and we'll talk again, maybe sometime I'm in New York and buy 1135 01:08:14,790 --> 01:08:15,630 a cup of coffee after. 1136 01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:21,510 Exactly come in and we'll lament the market together. God bless. 1137 01:08:21,690 --> 01:08:23,370 Okay, great to see you soon. Thanks. 1138 01:08:24,810 --> 01:08:28,080 I'm going to show my school by donating to no agenda. Imagine 1139 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,780 all the people who could do that. Oh, yeah, that'd be fine. 1140 01:08:38,220 --> 01:08:39,690 Well, yeah, people 1141 01:08:40,530 --> 01:08:43,980 just want to say nice. They would that was different. I 1142 01:08:43,980 --> 01:08:46,110 haven't heard the mooch that way. I liked that a lot. That 1143 01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:49,080 was good. Tom Starkweather I was just gonna ask you who set up 1144 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,240 the who set it up for you because that was good. produce 1145 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:51,660 the show. 1146 01:08:51,690 --> 01:08:57,720 Oh, good. And this is when I had on my screen my my Skype screen 1147 01:08:57,780 --> 01:09:02,220 I had the picture of of Al Gore with blood all over his face 1148 01:09:02,220 --> 01:09:02,520 holding 1149 01:09:03,630 --> 01:09:06,600 like the Friday the 13th Yeah. 1150 01:09:07,950 --> 01:09:10,950 mooch looks at it and he starts to have a second thoughts about 1151 01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:13,410 doing the interview. And I remember 1152 01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:16,920 start where there Tom I think he had to he tried to go a day 1153 01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,070 beforehand and they were giving him a hassle like security 1154 01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:23,430 clearances and all kinds of weird stuff. It wasn't easy. 1155 01:09:23,460 --> 01:09:27,150 Yeah. Well thanks to Tom for that and thanks to Anthony. That 1156 01:09:27,150 --> 01:09:28,860 was good I liked that. That was interesting. 1157 01:09:29,070 --> 01:09:31,470 So we don't have any people to thank because on one of these 1158 01:09:31,470 --> 01:09:34,080 interview shows we don't we keyword carrying over all the 1159 01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,120 donations to the next Thursday show 1160 01:09:36,150 --> 01:09:38,250 right which will of course will also have a wrap up of the 1161 01:09:38,250 --> 01:09:40,860 festivities which are taking place as we speak a 1162 01:09:40,860 --> 01:09:44,190 wedding and then maybe some interviews at the wedding. God 1163 01:09:47,790 --> 01:09:50,220 Wait a minute, are you bringing your Are you bringing as 1164 01:09:50,220 --> 01:09:51,420 weddings today? 1165 01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:53,520 Are you bringing your zoom recording 1166 01:09:53,610 --> 01:09:59,250 bringing the Zoom material 1167 01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:03,210 out God, well make sure you talk to Tiffany and Willow though. 1168 01:10:03,810 --> 01:10:10,260 Yes, I will definitely Oh yes. The big one, then well, zoom, a 1169 01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:13,200 zoom. So not a Zune. Now. It's 1170 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:14,820 a Zoom, zoom. So 1171 01:10:14,850 --> 01:10:18,450 so we want to remind people that this show is also requires 1172 01:10:18,690 --> 01:10:23,580 support. So if you can help us to go to node, you will get a 1173 01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:26,220 newsletter. But some people don't get that. And divorce 1174 01:10:26,220 --> 01:10:30,360 iq.org/n. A, and you have all the links there for donating. 1175 01:10:30,509 --> 01:10:34,409 Yeah. And you can see how the value network works. We had Tom 1176 01:10:34,409 --> 01:10:36,899 Starkweather, who we only knew from end of show mixes, all of a 1177 01:10:36,899 --> 01:10:40,379 sudden Tom is like available and producing, producing an entire 1178 01:10:40,739 --> 01:10:44,729 interview segment with us in New York. And I think he gets a kick 1179 01:10:44,729 --> 01:10:47,249 out of it as well. And he has an actual executive producer. 1180 01:10:47,639 --> 01:10:52,049 Credit or like a big one, in fact, as the executive producer, 1181 01:10:52,229 --> 01:10:56,219 because you know, we have nothing has a producer. Yes. And 1182 01:10:56,219 --> 01:10:59,279 the producer, exactly. The right, exec and producer. 1183 01:11:00,179 --> 01:11:01,649 He's the showrunner for the 1184 01:11:01,650 --> 01:11:04,980 show runner. Oh, yeah, we should add that to his, to his credit 1185 01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:06,360 show runner show run? 1186 01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:12,300 Yes. Move on to Cliff Stoll, who I interviewed in person at at 1187 01:11:12,300 --> 01:11:17,490 his house. Very interesting place in Oakland. And here we 1188 01:11:17,490 --> 01:11:23,310 go. I've known cliff on and off for a long time. And he used to 1189 01:11:23,310 --> 01:11:24,720 do a What's weird 1190 01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,100 about it is I used to know you for a long time. Still do know. 1191 01:11:29,820 --> 01:11:32,910 Yeah, I think so. Usually, if one person he knows another one 1192 01:11:32,910 --> 01:11:36,780 for a long time, the other one, it's transitory similar. Cliff 1193 01:11:36,780 --> 01:11:42,750 used to do these editorial spots where he would, more or less 1194 01:11:42,750 --> 01:11:45,150 just say get off the computer and go outside and get some 1195 01:11:45,150 --> 01:11:48,480 fresh air. And that was his message. And it was his message 1196 01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:51,540 every time he gave a big editorial. And I think it's 1197 01:11:51,540 --> 01:11:52,440 still your message. 1198 01:11:53,070 --> 01:11:57,390 My I don't have any messages anymore. That is the medium the 1199 01:11:57,390 --> 01:12:02,460 message No, I'm my feeling is enjoyment of life. Having 1200 01:12:02,460 --> 01:12:05,580 something to do having something worthwhile in your mind in 1201 01:12:05,580 --> 01:12:09,300 worthwhile around you. You can get in a lot of places. 1202 01:12:09,330 --> 01:12:12,390 Unfortunately, there's a lot of places that you can spin your 1203 01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:18,900 wheels so and and avoid doing cool things, or do what feels 1204 01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:24,180 really cool and neat, but ends up at the end of it all feeling 1205 01:12:24,180 --> 01:12:28,320 well. I'm not sure I did anything. My that's my day. 1206 01:12:29,310 --> 01:12:30,090 Yeah, yeah. 1207 01:12:30,390 --> 01:12:35,340 It's everybody's day. Now you had you still give speeches? 1208 01:12:35,850 --> 01:12:39,840 Occasionally, I saw I saw an old TED talk of yours once. I did a 1209 01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:43,110 TED talk. Yeah. was silly. Well, you're jumping around on the 1210 01:12:43,110 --> 01:12:44,550 stage and new 1211 01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,700 ideas. Don't give them a standing target. Yeah, no, 1212 01:12:47,700 --> 01:12:50,430 this is a comedians do this. They walk back and forth on the 1213 01:12:50,430 --> 01:12:53,040 stage for the reason that it keeps the keeps people from 1214 01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,090 falling asleep. 1215 01:12:55,290 --> 01:13:01,080 Asleep. Sure. But to me, it's also what did my father say? If 1216 01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,750 they're going to throw tomatoes at you, make sure they usually 1217 01:13:03,780 --> 01:13:09,450 miss. But but when I went to the this TED talk, I thought, Oh, 1218 01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:10,920 I'll have an hour to talk. 1219 01:13:11,580 --> 01:13:13,530 So that is only 18 minutes. That's 1220 01:13:13,530 --> 01:13:16,500 right. I get there. And the guy says, Oh, you've got 18 minutes? 1221 01:13:16,500 --> 01:13:19,020 I say, yeah. But I've outlined an hour's talk. He says, Well 1222 01:13:19,020 --> 01:13:22,920 compress it down. So instead of just that easy, Oh, yeah. So I 1223 01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,530 just said, Oh, I'll keep the same things. I'll just talk 1224 01:13:25,530 --> 01:13:29,250 really fast, which is pretty easy. Because one of the very 1225 01:13:29,250 --> 01:13:33,420 few things I learned in grad school was talk fast, and get 1226 01:13:33,420 --> 01:13:35,460 out of there before they can understand what you're not 1227 01:13:35,460 --> 01:13:35,760 saying. 1228 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:42,300 That's a good, it's, it's I never learned that, but I can 1229 01:13:42,300 --> 01:13:45,000 understand it. Now, let's go over some of the things that 1230 01:13:45,030 --> 01:13:49,200 some of your ideals, one of them that I wanted to talk about. And 1231 01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,510 the the one at the top of the list is something we always 1232 01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:54,900 talked about a little while ago, which is computers in schools, 1233 01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,080 throw them out? Well, I'm not sure whether you should throw 1234 01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,660 the school's out, or the computers out, throw one of them 1235 01:14:00,660 --> 01:14:00,930 out. 1236 01:14:02,130 --> 01:14:04,890 Explain yourself, because people said, well, you know, the 1237 01:14:04,890 --> 01:14:06,810 computers are what the kids are gonna have to work with. When 1238 01:14:06,810 --> 01:14:09,690 they get to business and they get into real life, they're 1239 01:14:09,690 --> 01:14:12,060 gonna have to learn how to use these computers worse. And of 1240 01:14:12,060 --> 01:14:14,790 course, they're all i All I see him using him for his to play 1241 01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:18,060 games and message, but I would assume that you had a good 1242 01:14:18,060 --> 01:14:22,260 course and in how to do Google Search might not be a business 1243 01:14:22,260 --> 01:14:22,920 or a computer, 1244 01:14:22,950 --> 01:14:27,630 or is it that the nature of computing especially 1245 01:14:27,630 --> 01:14:31,560 commercialized computing is that it becomes easier and easier to 1246 01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,970 get things done? 15 years ago, oh, we have to teach computing 1247 01:14:35,970 --> 01:14:40,860 in schools so that kids won't be left behind. No. Kids learn 1248 01:14:40,860 --> 01:14:46,770 computing really easy. The hard stuff to learn. How do you put 1249 01:14:46,770 --> 01:14:51,270 together a legible and understandable sentence? How do 1250 01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:59,340 you write a? How do you write a page of prose that is reasonable 1251 01:14:59,340 --> 01:15:03,570 to get you who say, to put on your resume? Or to get you into 1252 01:15:03,570 --> 01:15:08,910 college? Or? Or get to get through your classes next week? 1253 01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:16,500 My concern is not can kids use computers? My concern is Can 1254 01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:25,260 kids use their minds? It's we all know computer skills go out 1255 01:15:25,260 --> 01:15:26,940 of date real fast. 1256 01:15:26,969 --> 01:15:30,269 Oh, yeah, no try go back and use a Windows 3.1 system and see how 1257 01:15:30,269 --> 01:15:32,009 far you get. Yeah, the 1258 01:15:32,310 --> 01:15:36,990 language that you learn today, Python, Haskell, oh, in 10 1259 01:15:36,990 --> 01:15:40,140 years, it'll be obsolete, there'll be something new for 1260 01:15:40,140 --> 01:15:46,110 you to learn. And the same is true of various applications. 1261 01:15:46,500 --> 01:15:51,090 Every application is evolving. Few of them are static. No, I, 1262 01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:58,920 there are some things that it's really useful to know. And I 1263 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,250 think these can and should be taught in school, for example, 1264 01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:09,120 how to read for meaning, how to write a concise, expository 1265 01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:14,340 statement, how to write prose, how to write how to put together 1266 01:16:14,340 --> 01:16:17,040 a mathematical argument how to how logic works. 1267 01:16:22,050 --> 01:16:27,420 That that students, very few students graduate from college 1268 01:16:27,420 --> 01:16:32,040 today. Having read Shakespeare, well, which is more important to 1269 01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:36,840 figure out how Microsoft formats words or Shakespeare formats 1270 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,140 words, I don't know, which is more important. But I'm 1271 01:16:40,140 --> 01:16:47,130 astonished that the question is, isn't even brought up. And well, 1272 01:16:47,670 --> 01:16:51,090 lots of people spend lots of times, lots of time playing 1273 01:16:51,090 --> 01:16:56,250 games. Nope, nothing wrong with it. But we have so much time in 1274 01:16:56,250 --> 01:16:59,040 our life, that can be distributed in lots of different 1275 01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,400 ways. And some of the cool ways that you can spend your time is 1276 01:17:02,430 --> 01:17:07,530 Oh, I gotta I gotta watch a movie tonight, I gotta visit. So 1277 01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:10,860 I've got to talk to somebody, I've got to play a game I've got 1278 01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:14,910 to cook. We have a finite amount of time, every day, and of 1279 01:17:14,910 --> 01:17:19,530 course in our life, and in the time that we spend spinning 1280 01:17:19,530 --> 01:17:25,830 around in an artificial world is time that we're not learning, 1281 01:17:26,250 --> 01:17:32,610 challenging life skills, and practicing them. Well, obvious 1282 01:17:32,610 --> 01:17:38,640 example. For the past 2025 years, there have been surveys 1283 01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:45,000 on campus of shyness, psychologist at Stanford, does 1284 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,530 an annual survey, asking people how shy Are you? Great at 1285 01:17:49,530 --> 01:17:54,120 normalize, it turns out that there's a great deal of shyness. 1286 01:17:54,900 --> 01:18:00,690 It's increasing year after year. Well, nothing implicitly wrong 1287 01:18:00,690 --> 01:18:04,350 with this. But why are people more shy? Why are people 1288 01:18:04,350 --> 01:18:09,120 spending less time talking to one another? They're more afraid 1289 01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,570 of talking to one another? Well, it's because through their life, 1290 01:18:12,750 --> 01:18:20,430 it's easier and far more welcoming to interact with a 1291 01:18:20,430 --> 01:18:24,060 silicon screen than it is to interact with a real human 1292 01:18:24,060 --> 01:18:29,130 being. It's hard to say, oh, yeah, I'll just come over here 1293 01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,820 and say hi, and hack around with you and fool around. It's much 1294 01:18:32,820 --> 01:18:37,200 easier to say, Oh, I'll type on this. Tap away on this tablet. 1295 01:18:37,650 --> 01:18:45,210 There's less investment in local community today, where 50 100 1296 01:18:45,210 --> 01:18:49,230 years ago was commonplace that people would volunteer free time 1297 01:18:49,260 --> 01:18:55,080 at churches, red cross L Elks clubs, things like this just 1298 01:18:55,230 --> 01:19:00,480 volunteering time at the hospital. Today, they do not 1299 01:19:00,510 --> 01:19:03,750 there's much you know, there's several books, one of which is 1300 01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:09,030 called Bowling Alone. That points out that bowling alleys 1301 01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:13,890 are finding lots more people bowling, but fewer people 1302 01:19:13,890 --> 01:19:19,080 joining leagues. It seems that people don't have time to 1303 01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,950 coordinate with others to see them face to face. But they 1304 01:19:23,100 --> 01:19:29,550 still want to sharpen their their bowling skills. Our larger 1305 01:19:29,550 --> 01:19:37,860 community loses out when we when I when you don't volunteer and 1306 01:19:37,860 --> 01:19:43,050 put hours in meeting people hacking around after shul after 1307 01:19:43,050 --> 01:19:50,880 church after fooling around after school. There's a sense of 1308 01:19:50,940 --> 01:19:57,540 hey, I'm really busy. I don't have time for that. Well, I'm 1309 01:19:57,540 --> 01:19:58,620 really busy but still 1310 01:19:59,490 --> 01:20:03,150 how busy See our people big if you go outside and I've made of 1311 01:20:03,660 --> 01:20:07,530 a collection of photos of people who are just like this all the 1312 01:20:07,530 --> 01:20:11,700 time looking at their screen wherever they go on this go to a 1313 01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:14,820 platform at a railway station, they're all there like this and 1314 01:20:14,820 --> 01:20:18,510 it's actually very picturesque pictures because of the the 1315 01:20:18,510 --> 01:20:21,510 comedic nature of it to see a whole bunch of people lined up 1316 01:20:21,510 --> 01:20:24,120 not I mean, a train could come through with a big, you know, 1317 01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:28,170 big buzzsaw and kill them all and no one would notice it. 1318 01:20:28,350 --> 01:20:32,190 Or, or, or they could put a chainsaw and just chop off their 1319 01:20:32,220 --> 01:20:37,080 hands holding they're holding their cell phones. It's it's a 1320 01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:44,310 fascinating problem. And I'm my thoughts are I'd rather be 1321 01:20:44,340 --> 01:20:49,590 talking to somebody than collecting messages and reading 1322 01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:50,100 email. 1323 01:20:50,580 --> 01:20:54,270 You believe there's an addictive nature to this addictive these 1324 01:20:54,300 --> 01:20:57,030 to this thing? I mean, and what causes what's the model of 1325 01:20:57,060 --> 01:20:59,130 addiction? Essentially, every 1326 01:20:59,130 --> 01:21:00,630 one is hyper social. I 1327 01:21:00,630 --> 01:21:03,570 mean, you just went on about this antisocial behavior, but at 1328 01:21:03,570 --> 01:21:06,540 the same time, it don't you think it's kind of hyper social, 1329 01:21:06,540 --> 01:21:09,090 it'd be all plugged into 35? We don't really know. 1330 01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:15,600 Okay. When somebody, friends me on Facebook, are they my friend? 1331 01:21:15,630 --> 01:21:18,600 You have a Facebook account? No, I don't know what to do when 1332 01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,600 somebody friends, yes, I blah, blah, friend, blah, blah, blah, 1333 01:21:21,870 --> 01:21:25,680 are they my friend is the definition is my definition of 1334 01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,970 friend, someone who's connected to me by way of a social medium. 1335 01:21:31,710 --> 01:21:35,970 My idea of a friend is, hey, I've got an inner circle of a 1336 01:21:35,970 --> 01:21:39,030 half dozen people that if I'm feeling down, I can call them 1337 01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:43,410 and talk. If I'm hungry, I can say hey, let's go out for coffee 1338 01:21:43,410 --> 01:21:47,550 and lunch. People that I can wander over to their house with 1339 01:21:47,550 --> 01:21:53,520 little or no warning, and just talk and in cut catch up on 1340 01:21:53,520 --> 01:22:00,090 things. My definition of friend isn't someone who sends messages 1341 01:22:00,090 --> 01:22:05,910 to me, by way of a of a widespread application. There 1342 01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:09,630 are many, many people who have 1000s of friends on Facebook, 1343 01:22:09,690 --> 01:22:14,040 probably many people have 10s of 1000s of friends. But if one of 1344 01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:17,400 these people stopped some on the street, do they say Oh, how's 1345 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:21,090 your daughter? You know what, you know? Is your dad still 1346 01:22:21,090 --> 01:22:24,840 sick? Are you you know, can they converse and have a heart to 1347 01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,290 heart conversation? Why don't you Why don't we just putting it 1348 01:22:28,290 --> 01:22:29,010 another way 1349 01:22:29,070 --> 01:22:33,030 go? Why don't we? Well, we back off from that concept and say to 1350 01:22:33,030 --> 01:22:36,450 ourselves, we've redefined friendship. And so a brand is 1351 01:22:36,450 --> 01:22:40,140 now defined as theirs. So there may be two two categories. You 1352 01:22:40,140 --> 01:22:44,250 have the Facebook friend, and you have a real friend. And do 1353 01:22:44,250 --> 01:22:47,400 people realize that the Facebook friends not as a foe friend or 1354 01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,220 do they do are they seriously thinking these are real friends? 1355 01:22:50,970 --> 01:22:53,190 I don't 1356 01:22:53,190 --> 01:22:56,520 know I have no experience in social media. I'm the wrong 1357 01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:01,380 person to speak of it. I wish that there were more analysis of 1358 01:23:01,380 --> 01:23:05,640 it by those who are professional insists sociologists and I have 1359 01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:07,890 been rejected by leaders forever. I think that 1360 01:23:08,460 --> 01:23:14,340 sociologists are very happy to work academically and they and 1361 01:23:14,340 --> 01:23:18,780 here's a here's something that's screaming out calling Analyze 1362 01:23:18,780 --> 01:23:23,580 Me. Why is it that people say oh, I've got 2000 friends on 1363 01:23:23,580 --> 01:23:31,140 Facebook. I got it yet they're going around sort of unhappy. I 1364 01:23:31,140 --> 01:23:35,790 don't know. I I'm a physicist. I'm a computer jock. I'm a 1365 01:23:35,790 --> 01:23:38,100 mathematician, I'm sure but 1366 01:23:41,850 --> 01:23:45,630 you don't find any any attraction of social media. 1367 01:23:45,660 --> 01:23:48,720 You're not attracted to any aspect of it, like a Twitter 1368 01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,690 account where you can make snide comments to the public at large 1369 01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:56,130 to wish to make snide comments No. Snyder's 1370 01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,820 Yeah. She's the only valuable thing you could do on these 1371 01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:05,310 two you reminded me of of what is it? It's crackers to slip 1372 01:24:05,910 --> 01:24:11,610 through riser. The drop ski in snide, hot damn, I remembered 1373 01:24:11,610 --> 01:24:13,530 that. Right? Is 1374 01:24:13,530 --> 01:24:15,480 that an E. Cummings? Notes 1375 01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:20,400 from Mad Magazine in the 1960s? Yes, crackers to slip Arizer the 1376 01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:27,450 drop skin snide means it's foolish to bribe a policeman 1377 01:24:27,660 --> 01:24:32,130 with counterfeit money. snideness counterfeit money. So 1378 01:24:33,420 --> 01:24:43,650 what I'm getting at is more. What? email, Twitter, online 1379 01:24:43,650 --> 01:24:49,980 communications is fantastic for staying on top of things. But I 1380 01:24:49,980 --> 01:24:53,820 want to get to the bottom of things. What I want to do is 1381 01:24:54,210 --> 01:25:00,810 understand things more deeply. In that means Not being 1382 01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:05,190 interrupt driven, not being pushed around by every notice 1383 01:25:05,190 --> 01:25:11,610 that comes to me rather researching and learning and 1384 01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:16,800 working in a few small areas, and becoming as as direct as 1385 01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:23,580 possible in a small area. In not try to keep up with 1000 online 1386 01:25:23,580 --> 01:25:30,840 friends, more I'm, I'm I'm and this is not a critique of people 1387 01:25:31,110 --> 01:25:35,550 who spend a huge amount of time online or on Facebook, it's more 1388 01:25:36,060 --> 01:25:42,150 what I find works for me. In my heart, I want to be closer to my 1389 01:25:42,150 --> 01:25:46,650 wife, I want to be closer to my kids. I want to be closer to my 1390 01:25:46,650 --> 01:25:51,360 community, my neighborhood, we're going to be making plum 1391 01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:56,130 jam sharing it with the people next door. Well, I can't share 1392 01:25:56,130 --> 01:25:59,970 my plum jam with people who are on social media. Sorry, there's 1393 01:25:59,970 --> 01:26:05,010 only about three dozen jars of it in the first color. People 1394 01:26:05,010 --> 01:26:12,780 live next door helped me pick the plugins. These it's not like 1395 01:26:12,780 --> 01:26:18,360 I'm saying this is a wrong thing to point your life at. It's more 1396 01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:24,450 I'm saying for me. And I suspect for many though not all others. 1397 01:26:25,410 --> 01:26:30,240 There's something lost if I spend a lot of time poking 1398 01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:35,070 around at a computer poking around at a screen. Rather than 1399 01:26:36,060 --> 01:26:43,890 screwing around with friends with relatives and and having 1400 01:26:45,090 --> 01:26:48,990 depth with a few people rather than shallowness with a large 1401 01:26:48,990 --> 01:26:53,640 number of people who have I just laugh at me and say I'm all 1402 01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:54,870 wrong. It's all right. Nobody 1403 01:26:54,870 --> 01:27:00,240 says that. Because nobody knows what's right. A. And I've never 1404 01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,480 heard anybody defend social media, they just, they just did 1405 01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:07,500 find it as a fun thing to do it for as a sigh. I don't know, I 1406 01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:09,540 have to be honest, if I don't have a Facebook account either. 1407 01:27:09,930 --> 01:27:14,700 And so I always baffled by the some of the Facebook because it 1408 01:27:14,700 --> 01:27:17,850 just kind of stirs you up. And it doesn't really accomplish any 1409 01:27:17,850 --> 01:27:18,450 10 years. 1410 01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:23,940 10 years ago, I ended up on something called LinkedIn. A day 1411 01:27:23,940 --> 01:27:27,270 doesn't go by that I don't get notices saying XYZ wants to 1412 01:27:27,270 --> 01:27:33,270 connect to on LinkedIn. Oh, yeah, LinkedIn. And I'm, I just 1413 01:27:33,270 --> 01:27:37,650 have no idea what to do with these things. People from across 1414 01:27:37,650 --> 01:27:41,010 the globe want to connect with me as if I have something to say 1415 01:27:41,010 --> 01:27:43,980 or something useful to help them with? I don't 1416 01:27:45,210 --> 01:27:48,750 I think you may be exaggerating, but LinkedIn is really what's 1417 01:27:48,750 --> 01:27:53,640 purposes. It's to create kind of phone networks of people who 1418 01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:55,440 maybe could offer your work. 1419 01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:58,350 I can offer nobody any work. So 1420 01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,950 you don't need to be on LinkedIn. 1421 01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:10,350 Yeah, it's a I just have concerns that will popping the 1422 01:28:10,350 --> 01:28:15,060 stack. You're asking about schools. My feeling is the 1423 01:28:15,060 --> 01:28:19,920 things that we should get out of education are not how to use 1424 01:28:19,950 --> 01:28:26,340 computers. That's pretty easy. In fact, it's hard to find a 1425 01:28:26,340 --> 01:28:30,780 teenager who doesn't know how to use Facebook who doesn't know 1426 01:28:30,810 --> 01:28:34,170 how to efficiently search on Google. It's hard to find a 1427 01:28:34,170 --> 01:28:39,600 teenager who's bad at texting. They exist, I'm sure but they're 1428 01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:44,910 probably pretty rare. But find a teenager who can stand up in 1429 01:28:44,910 --> 01:28:51,450 front of 30 students and recite a poem, play the clarinet. 1430 01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:58,350 Explain how explain the importance of Pericles, the 1431 01:28:58,350 --> 01:29:03,870 Peloponnesian War, how his speech laid the groundwork for 1432 01:29:03,870 --> 01:29:06,600 Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, you know, that's something that 1433 01:29:07,590 --> 01:29:11,490 I'd hope at least some of the better, better kids in high 1434 01:29:11,490 --> 01:29:15,960 school would be able to do and would be a little bit nervous 1435 01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:22,080 about what would be capable of doing yet if we consider that 1436 01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:32,370 the point of of schooling is to teach you a trade while Okay, 1437 01:29:32,670 --> 01:29:37,620 learn C plus plus here, here's how you use pointers and here's 1438 01:29:37,620 --> 01:29:38,010 how 1439 01:29:38,790 --> 01:29:42,810 Yeah, it just they don't do that. By the way. They don't 1440 01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:46,320 teach kids how to use know how to code in C Plus Plus they 1441 01:29:47,460 --> 01:29:50,310 don't do this I don't know to be at well, you know, I don't know 1442 01:29:50,310 --> 01:29:53,460 as much as I should. But I'll but from what I can tell this, 1443 01:29:53,490 --> 01:29:57,780 the computers are considered ancillary to like a history 1444 01:29:57,780 --> 01:30:01,470 course. So you can teach A little bit, have you read a book 1445 01:30:01,470 --> 01:30:03,060 and then do a lot of research online? 1446 01:30:05,940 --> 01:30:10,890 Suppose for a minute, suppose suppose for a minute, I was an 1447 01:30:11,010 --> 01:30:15,600 evil, horrible, terrible human being that might be true. And my 1448 01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:22,140 idea was, I want to wipe out curiosity. I want to get rid of 1449 01:30:22,140 --> 01:30:27,000 curiosity. Well, one way to do that would be to say, I'm going 1450 01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,200 to lock people up and not let them near any information, I'm 1451 01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,660 going to keep the books away from them, keep the internet 1452 01:30:33,660 --> 01:30:37,740 away from them. Make sure that they don't have access to 1453 01:30:37,740 --> 01:30:41,940 information. Well, let get glint, get rid of their 1454 01:30:41,940 --> 01:30:46,410 curiosity. Hello, they'll be more curious than ever. What's 1455 01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:51,090 out there? Please turn it around, though. If I want to get 1456 01:30:51,090 --> 01:30:57,150 rid of a kid's curiosity, what if I gave this kid a machine? 1457 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:02,220 That answered every question that kid came up with? correctly 1458 01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:07,230 with, you know, in a nice, a nice high res screen, right? 1459 01:31:07,230 --> 01:31:12,060 doable, doable, and even had some movies and videos to show 1460 01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:16,260 kid kid says, you know, how do flowers grow? Or what? Why is 1461 01:31:16,260 --> 01:31:19,980 the sky blue? And it comes up with a perfect answer. That 1462 01:31:19,980 --> 01:31:25,110 would be a wonderful way to eliminate curiosity, because you 1463 01:31:25,110 --> 01:31:30,600 never experience the joy of doing an experiment and figuring 1464 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:35,550 it out for yourself. All you have to do is ask that question 1465 01:31:35,550 --> 01:31:43,320 online and get a wonderful, easy answer right back to you. If you 1466 01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:48,930 want to eliminate curiosity, provide people with facile 1467 01:31:49,260 --> 01:31:56,400 immediate answers. Well, what does any of the search engines 1468 01:31:57,030 --> 01:32:00,780 Take your pick? What do they do? They provide us with facile 1469 01:32:00,810 --> 01:32:05,730 easy, quick answers to essentially any question we ask. 1470 01:32:06,930 --> 01:32:11,880 Our effective the does this have on students? Well, seems to me 1471 01:32:13,050 --> 01:32:19,260 that it's a wonderful way to throw a wet blanket on our 1472 01:32:19,890 --> 01:32:25,020 indigenous curiosity that each of us is born with. Why should 1473 01:32:25,020 --> 01:32:28,590 I? Why should I explore the world and ask questions? If I 1474 01:32:28,590 --> 01:32:32,250 want to know what what life is like in Seung Hye China? I'll 1475 01:32:32,250 --> 01:32:34,500 just ask the computer. No. 1476 01:32:35,460 --> 01:32:39,660 You can be on a train anywhere in the world. And you see the 1477 01:32:39,660 --> 01:32:42,930 same kids that you're talking about. Instead of looking out 1478 01:32:42,930 --> 01:32:46,230 the window at the crazy sites, yes. You seen this? 1479 01:32:46,860 --> 01:32:52,800 The instead of instead of looking around saying, Wow, I'm 1480 01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:55,620 looking at some nasturtiums flowers. Oh, what are they 1481 01:32:55,620 --> 01:32:59,010 doing? Like? Do they close up? Or stay open? Oh, no, I'm gonna 1482 01:32:59,010 --> 01:33:03,030 look at a screen and stay up on social media or I'll be asking 1483 01:33:03,030 --> 01:33:08,580 questions or trying to copy and paste together some some report. 1484 01:33:09,450 --> 01:33:15,840 My point is not that, oh, computers are harmful. Rather, 1485 01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:21,510 my point is that we should be asking ourselves, what is it 1486 01:33:21,660 --> 01:33:25,950 about an interconnected world that gives us the heebie 1487 01:33:25,950 --> 01:33:31,980 jeebies. And one of my points has, when I taught to I taught 1488 01:33:31,980 --> 01:33:36,210 eighth grade Buck 19 years ago, in teaching eighth graders, 1489 01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:41,460 there lots of kids who were fantastic online and texting. 1490 01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:45,870 And it was surprisingly difficult to get them to just do 1491 01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:52,980 ordinary curious stuff. Stuff that is great. No, no, they were 1492 01:33:52,980 --> 01:33:57,480 perfectly happy not to be doing athletics. But sitting on the 1493 01:33:57,480 --> 01:34:01,860 side texting. They were it was sad to me. 1494 01:34:02,429 --> 01:34:05,789 It's right. It's always been pathetic to me, but sad is a 1495 01:34:05,789 --> 01:34:07,649 good way of putting it. I'm not. 1496 01:34:07,890 --> 01:34:12,000 What I'm not saying is these kids are turning out all wrong. 1497 01:34:12,660 --> 01:34:17,820 Rather, I'm asking. Could it be that our love affair with a high 1498 01:34:17,820 --> 01:34:27,240 tech information system may be leading our kids and adults into 1499 01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:32,310 rather dreary, unhappy lives? I don't know. I hope not. But 1500 01:34:32,310 --> 01:34:35,910 might be to ask. 1501 01:34:35,940 --> 01:34:40,530 I think the I don't know what I asked. I think they are. I think 1502 01:34:40,530 --> 01:34:46,290 the unhappy life is ahead. So you see too much evidence of 1503 01:34:46,290 --> 01:34:50,340 your kids being suicidal for why as a 17 year olds go to bed, of 1504 01:34:50,340 --> 01:34:53,430 course. But we're also drugging these kids. There's a 1505 01:34:53,669 --> 01:35:02,699 great deal of okay, nobody has it either. Izzy, between age 1506 01:35:02,729 --> 01:35:06,689 three at age 31, might say nobody has it easy at any age. 1507 01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:10,889 It's real tough to be a teenager. I don't know whether 1508 01:35:10,889 --> 01:35:14,969 teenage suicides are remaining the same going up or going down. 1509 01:35:16,889 --> 01:35:23,879 It saddens me deeply to hear of any suicide at any age, because 1510 01:35:24,809 --> 01:35:29,549 people have so much to contribute to this very mundane, 1511 01:35:29,549 --> 01:35:33,239 dreary world. And the only way the world becomes more 1512 01:35:33,239 --> 01:35:38,339 interesting and lively or more wonderful place is by people 1513 01:35:38,339 --> 01:35:43,889 doing things and making it a better place. And to the person 1514 01:35:43,889 --> 01:35:46,919 who say, ah, what am I have to live for? I've screwed up or 1515 01:35:46,919 --> 01:35:50,969 there's, things are boring, I can look around and say, there's 1516 01:35:51,089 --> 01:35:55,979 so much to learn. There's so many cool things going on here. 1517 01:35:56,729 --> 01:35:59,729 There's so much to do with your hands with your heart with your 1518 01:35:59,729 --> 01:36:08,399 head. And yet some people let go. Can I find it very sad. And 1519 01:36:08,399 --> 01:36:13,589 I'm, my concern is goes to something you said before a few 1520 01:36:13,589 --> 01:36:19,199 minutes ago about the word snide. It's easy to be snide. 1521 01:36:19,199 --> 01:36:23,309 It's easy to be sarcastic, but that is something to do. Oh, of 1522 01:36:23,309 --> 01:36:28,589 course, it's something to do. Be critical. be mean? Yeah, it's 1523 01:36:28,949 --> 01:36:35,699 easy to say mean hurtful things to a classmate. To to it's even 1524 01:36:35,729 --> 01:36:40,739 easier to say a mean hurtful thing on a posting on some. Yes, 1525 01:36:40,739 --> 01:36:42,479 some board and course. 1526 01:36:43,140 --> 01:36:44,340 And people specialize in 1527 01:36:44,340 --> 01:36:48,570 it. Oh, yeah. People work hard to troll around the whole 1528 01:36:48,570 --> 01:36:52,680 institutions in St. Petersburg, where they train people to do 1529 01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:59,940 this. And at the same time, I feel, you know, the community I 1530 01:36:59,940 --> 01:37:04,020 want to be a part of. It has some sarcasm in it. Yeah. 1531 01:37:04,410 --> 01:37:08,640 There's, there's people who scarf, but on the whole, it's 1532 01:37:08,730 --> 01:37:14,160 largely self supportive. And friendship is oftentimes built 1533 01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:20,520 upon mutual interests and mutual support, rather than, Oh, I'm 1534 01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:25,080 more snide than you are I'm biking make them flashy or piece 1535 01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:32,820 of sarcasm than you can not do that. Or I'm talking myself into 1536 01:37:33,090 --> 01:37:34,170 a corner I'm sure 1537 01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:37,140 that people will have in the corner. Yeah. 1538 01:37:37,170 --> 01:37:38,880 But I'm, I'm still 1539 01:37:39,180 --> 01:37:41,760 by think you're right. Generally speaking, it's everything you 1540 01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:46,410 say is, is accurate. It's like, there is the situation as it now 1541 01:37:46,410 --> 01:37:49,770 exists is terrible. And then they want to move on to things. 1542 01:37:49,770 --> 01:37:53,910 And then when the other issues crop up, based on technology, 1543 01:37:54,210 --> 01:37:57,690 you end up with people advocating, for example, voting 1544 01:37:57,750 --> 01:38:02,460 over the internet, which seems to me to be just fraught with 1545 01:38:02,490 --> 01:38:03,360 insanity. 1546 01:38:03,810 --> 01:38:07,410 Yeah, I mean, there's, there's lots of problems with online 1547 01:38:07,410 --> 01:38:12,780 voting, not least of which is identity. But also is the 1548 01:38:13,350 --> 01:38:18,960 implicit lack of temporal thought of, oh, I'm going to 1549 01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:21,630 actually think about this for a long time, rather than I'm not 1550 01:38:21,630 --> 01:38:25,020 clicking on a checkbox. How do you feel about this? Check here? 1551 01:38:25,440 --> 01:38:29,730 Click here. Oops. 10 minutes later, maybe not. There's a 1552 01:38:29,730 --> 01:38:34,410 certain seriousness that happens when you actually vote walk to a 1553 01:38:34,410 --> 01:38:40,590 voting booth and that you don't that I don't get at least a log 1554 01:38:40,590 --> 01:38:44,340 into website says, What's your opinion? I XYZ Oh, survey monkey 1555 01:38:44,340 --> 01:38:48,330 wants to know. How long do you cut your shoelaces? 1556 01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:55,980 How often are you online? On a daily basis, do you have a 1557 01:38:55,980 --> 01:38:59,190 computer in the house? Yeah, I have one downstairs, there's 1558 01:38:59,190 --> 01:39:00,870 one downstairs. I 1559 01:39:01,350 --> 01:39:04,860 would you get on a do you get stuck on it like most people, 1560 01:39:05,190 --> 01:39:07,650 you get to go down the rabbit hole. 1561 01:39:07,980 --> 01:39:11,940 I have a little business making and selling glassware. Yes, 1562 01:39:11,940 --> 01:39:15,030 Klein bumps. And I'm in communications with 1563 01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:20,250 mathematicians who like to send and receive email. I answer a 1564 01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:26,370 bunch of email several, probably a couple hours a day of outside 1565 01:39:26,370 --> 01:39:30,330 of that. Well, what did I do this morning I unpacked a bunch 1566 01:39:30,330 --> 01:39:37,230 of glassware. I cut some tiles with a diamond saw. I putting 1567 01:39:37,230 --> 01:39:43,500 together a kitchen counter using using some kind of Penrose tiles 1568 01:39:43,500 --> 01:39:50,580 that so I'm in last night. I was up till 10 o'clock with my wife. 1569 01:39:50,580 --> 01:39:57,240 We're both reading books from seven till 10. So I try to keep 1570 01:39:57,270 --> 01:40:07,290 my computing in My screen time is 11 in the morning till over 1571 01:40:07,290 --> 01:40:11,940 lunch till two in the afternoon to three. And let's try to 1572 01:40:11,970 --> 01:40:17,940 minimize it a day. To me. A successful day is a day that I 1573 01:40:17,970 --> 01:40:22,080 don't get in a car and I don't see a screen. That to me is a 1574 01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:23,670 completely successful date. 1575 01:40:23,849 --> 01:40:29,069 Now, if you have you ever been since you do a go, you're not 1576 01:40:29,069 --> 01:40:32,309 computer illiterate by any means. Do you? Is there anything 1577 01:40:32,309 --> 01:40:34,919 online? Everything's online now? 1578 01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:40,050 Or have you seen no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I 1579 01:40:40,050 --> 01:40:43,200 planted some tomato plants two weeks ago. Throughout online? 1580 01:40:43,230 --> 01:40:45,510 No. Okay. Well, you're making some plum chairs. I'm 1581 01:40:45,510 --> 01:40:49,440 just saying it's not online. Now. Right? Look at 1582 01:40:49,500 --> 01:40:52,260 look at this. This is this is glass. Yeah. 1583 01:40:52,260 --> 01:40:55,650 And it's not for sale online. It's, 1584 01:40:56,309 --> 01:40:59,309 we're here that's not unlike what I meant. 1585 01:40:59,670 --> 01:41:03,180 What I meant by that on the computer, specifically, not in 1586 01:41:03,210 --> 01:41:06,570 the world in general. Most things are online. And have you 1587 01:41:06,570 --> 01:41:09,030 ever been surprised by anything you've seen in the last few 1588 01:41:09,030 --> 01:41:12,270 years where you go, Oh, my God, this is really great. I didn't 1589 01:41:12,270 --> 01:41:15,180 think I'd ever seen anything like this before. Here it is. 1590 01:41:15,540 --> 01:41:20,100 I've seen an enormous number of things online that I've opened 1591 01:41:20,100 --> 01:41:23,580 my eyes say, Wow, this is impressive. That this is 1592 01:41:23,580 --> 01:41:29,370 available to me online is it's close to magic at the same time, 1593 01:41:29,730 --> 01:41:36,810 for all the flash for all the HTML five for all the glitz and 1594 01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:42,870 astonishing websites. I don't think I've ever seen a website 1595 01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:51,240 or really anything online that I call caring, kind, supportive, 1596 01:41:51,390 --> 01:41:53,310 deeply touching. 1597 01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:57,990 Maybe it's not possible. The things 1598 01:41:57,990 --> 01:42:06,390 that move me most deeply for, like the difference between 1599 01:42:06,390 --> 01:42:12,990 seeing a child grow up in your home and become an adult? Well, 1600 01:42:13,020 --> 01:42:16,590 there are billions of photos of people growing up and becoming 1601 01:42:16,590 --> 01:42:21,480 an adult online through nothing like the experience of justice 1602 01:42:21,480 --> 01:42:27,720 vs Herot, of course. And there's millions of websites that tell 1603 01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:31,770 you how to be apparent to the foot. But inevitably, you'll 1604 01:42:31,770 --> 01:42:36,210 learn yourself. And the advice that you get online is worth 1605 01:42:36,210 --> 01:42:41,250 every penny that you pay for it. It's a Yeah, I've seen plenty 1606 01:42:41,250 --> 01:42:45,420 online that have that's opened my eyes and what I don't go 1607 01:42:45,420 --> 01:42:52,080 around saying is wow. If only science people or math people 1608 01:42:52,110 --> 01:42:56,220 had this available to them 200 years ago, think of what they 1609 01:42:56,220 --> 01:43:02,010 could have done? Nah. When I see what people like Gauss, what 1610 01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:07,230 Einstein what Maxwell Newton did. They were phenomenally 1611 01:43:07,230 --> 01:43:14,580 constrained, with us with incredibly primitive tools. Yet, 1612 01:43:14,610 --> 01:43:19,080 with those primitive tools, they were forced to be creative. 1613 01:43:19,410 --> 01:43:25,410 Today we have extremely high quality digital tools. And as a 1614 01:43:25,410 --> 01:43:30,390 result, we needn't be creative. What do I mean by that? Oh, you 1615 01:43:32,220 --> 01:43:35,100 will give me a minute to think this one out. When I was a kid 1616 01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:40,440 in art class. Class was sort of divided into two those people 1617 01:43:40,440 --> 01:43:44,100 who could draw a tree that looked right. And those who like 1618 01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:47,430 me couldn't draw a tree. I couldn't draw a tree and look at 1619 01:43:47,430 --> 01:43:51,090 it stared and didn't look like a tree. And the art teacher said a 1620 01:43:52,290 --> 01:43:56,880 way of discarding us. We were the creative ones. And it took a 1621 01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:02,520 while for me to realize that creativity is the inability to 1622 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:07,320 copy those who are able to look at a picture and make a copy of 1623 01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:12,150 that. They got along well in this art class. Those of us who 1624 01:44:12,390 --> 01:44:17,040 just couldn't copy, no matter how we tried, we couldn't copy 1625 01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:19,440 we're at the severe disadvantage. We were the ones 1626 01:44:19,440 --> 01:44:21,930 who are called Creative. You don't think that was just 1627 01:44:21,930 --> 01:44:26,370 disparaging? Of course it was disparaged. Well, certainly, you 1628 01:44:26,370 --> 01:44:30,450 should have been there. Through my life. I've realized that 1629 01:44:30,480 --> 01:44:35,040 creativity, that institutions whether they're schools, 1630 01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:42,480 businesses or institutions don't value creativity, they value the 1631 01:44:42,630 --> 01:44:46,200 ability to get along and fit in properly. You know, the square 1632 01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:50,850 peg in the square hole. Creativity is rarely valued. I 1633 01:44:50,850 --> 01:44:54,330 want somebody to drop drop toy. It looks over there. Just copy 1634 01:44:54,330 --> 01:44:58,590 that. Well, the one thing that you find across the board in 1635 01:44:58,590 --> 01:45:03,930 computing is cost Copy and Paste. It's an it's built into 1636 01:45:03,930 --> 01:45:07,440 every operating system at the most fundamental levels, copy 1637 01:45:07,440 --> 01:45:14,670 and paste. Well, to me that says, it's the nature of deep 1638 01:45:14,670 --> 01:45:20,460 down computing, that it encourages working within a 1639 01:45:20,460 --> 01:45:28,920 system that's built by fits into OSX, or Linux or Unix, or, or, 1640 01:45:29,550 --> 01:45:34,980 or Microsoft operating system, yet, making photocopies or 1641 01:45:34,980 --> 01:45:41,370 duplicating words or duplicating images, sort of tells me this 1642 01:45:41,370 --> 01:45:45,330 isn't a very creative process. If it's creativity that I want. 1643 01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:50,730 I think I'd rather see somebody use their hands or get away from 1644 01:45:51,570 --> 01:45:58,200 the screen. Maybe I'm all wrong about this. There's lots of 1645 01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:01,740 creative people who are online, no doubt, there's lots of 1646 01:46:01,740 --> 01:46:09,480 creative efforts. But oftentimes, it's in the Tools 1647 01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:14,160 push us towards oh, I'll just copy it out of here, slightly 1648 01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:17,040 rewrite it and paste it over there. But looks like my work. 1649 01:46:17,220 --> 01:46:21,810 Good enough. I wish someone smarter than me would explore. 1650 01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:29,850 What do we mean by creativity in a digital domain? Not just Oh, 1651 01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:32,610 that's a really creative thing that I see online, but rather, 1652 01:46:32,910 --> 01:46:38,280 what I mean, like you, I've sat through so many horrible 1653 01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:39,630 PowerPoint talks. 1654 01:46:40,050 --> 01:46:41,490 I've given them Yeah, I mean, 1655 01:46:41,519 --> 01:46:48,359 just what a fantastic way to poison a talk use PowerPoint, so 1656 01:46:48,359 --> 01:46:53,429 refreshing. so wonderful to hear somebody do a talk, entirely 1657 01:46:53,519 --> 01:46:58,289 improv, you know, without, you know, without using a projector 1658 01:46:58,289 --> 01:47:01,469 without using a computer without being organized in advance, just 1659 01:47:01,469 --> 01:47:05,399 saying, Hey, I'm going to talk about perfume and 1660 01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:09,240 what you've done. No, of course, we all have. Well, 1661 01:47:10,019 --> 01:47:13,649 that's the nature of doing public speech to come up with 1662 01:47:13,649 --> 01:47:17,039 something on the fly. I don't want to be pre programmed. 1663 01:47:17,910 --> 01:47:20,010 That's right, and bring a bunch of questions for you. If you 1664 01:47:20,010 --> 01:47:21,630 haven't noticed. Well, that's 1665 01:47:21,660 --> 01:47:23,250 that's the nature of you. 1666 01:47:25,650 --> 01:47:30,840 I do. I do. But yes, I can do it. I could actually have 1667 01:47:30,840 --> 01:47:33,420 questions down. I go through them. But let me throw a wet 1668 01:47:33,420 --> 01:47:34,380 blanket on you. 1669 01:47:34,530 --> 01:47:36,600 Pull that if you're gonna throw what blank I get gets more. 1670 01:47:36,690 --> 01:47:41,430 Okay. Yeah, so I am. I know for me doing a talk. It's 1671 01:47:41,460 --> 01:47:42,870 improvisational performance. 1672 01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:47,100 I like, well, actually, when we do our podcast is all it's 1673 01:47:47,100 --> 01:47:50,580 improv. It's Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But let's talk about 1674 01:47:50,580 --> 01:47:54,510 evidence. It's really wet blanket. Because I want to hear 1675 01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:56,850 the reason I'm going to do the wet blanket is because I want to 1676 01:47:56,850 --> 01:48:00,930 hear your analysis of it. Sure. Early on, in the days when you 1677 01:48:00,930 --> 01:48:05,310 were more of a prognosticator pundit, you made the prediction 1678 01:48:05,310 --> 01:48:08,280 that ecommerce is never going to go anywhere. And it's just a big 1679 01:48:08,280 --> 01:48:10,290 joke. Me? Well, of course, I 1680 01:48:10,290 --> 01:48:12,120 was wrong. You're wrong. 1681 01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:15,360 But can you analyze why you were wrong? 1682 01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:21,810 I was invited to do a talk on it. Ecommerce actually is not. 1683 01:48:22,350 --> 01:48:24,810 That was a couple couple friends of mine. I was sitting around 1684 01:48:24,810 --> 01:48:28,020 talking at the time what you could get online or essentially, 1685 01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:32,910 magazine subscriptions. I thought, No way. It's my 1686 01:48:32,910 --> 01:48:34,350 interest. That's ironic, 1687 01:48:34,590 --> 01:48:35,070 of course. 1688 01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:39,900 Too, today, of course, magazine subscriptions, what's a 1689 01:48:39,900 --> 01:48:47,880 magazine? What's a rather, what I felt at the time was the 1690 01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:53,940 richness of going to a store retail shop, couldn't be matched 1691 01:48:54,060 --> 01:48:59,100 by things online still can't. I felt that that was far more 1692 01:48:59,100 --> 01:49:02,850 important than it actually turned out to be. People are 1693 01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:06,600 perfectly happy saying, I'll order this, I'll click on this 1694 01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:09,120 and it'll be delivered to me and I'll have the thing without the 1695 01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:12,840 experience of going to the store. For me, personally, I 1696 01:49:12,840 --> 01:49:17,280 felt then and unfortunately, I still do feel now that 1697 01:49:18,060 --> 01:49:23,340 purchasing and shopping should be a extension of one's persona, 1698 01:49:23,700 --> 01:49:27,330 and shouldn't simply be picking things from a menu in the sense 1699 01:49:27,330 --> 01:49:34,920 that my feeling is if shopping means acquisition, and acquiring 1700 01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:40,800 stuff. Buying something by simply clicking on I want that I 1701 01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:43,440 want this I want this other thing, click on it, pay for it 1702 01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:51,330 and get the stuff to me that it feels shallow compared to Oh, 1703 01:49:51,750 --> 01:49:57,480 getting something in supporting the small business or the 1704 01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:04,230 bookstore that provides it Yeah. And I realize now that this 1705 01:50:04,230 --> 01:50:08,070 mental image that I had then may very well have applied to me, 1706 01:50:08,250 --> 01:50:12,420 but it sure didn't apply to very many other people. There are 1707 01:50:12,420 --> 01:50:17,790 lots of people for whom, oh, I don't want to go to a grocery 1708 01:50:17,790 --> 01:50:21,150 store, I'd rather have it delivered. I don't want to meet 1709 01:50:21,150 --> 01:50:22,320 the person. Well, this 1710 01:50:22,350 --> 01:50:25,770 brings you back to your earlier discussion about the antisocial 1711 01:50:25,770 --> 01:50:28,560 behavior of people who are online all the time. Yeah, no, 1712 01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:35,070 I, I have. I have discussed with people, that fact that they 1713 01:50:35,070 --> 01:50:37,380 don't like to go to the store at the grocery store to buy stuff, 1714 01:50:37,470 --> 01:50:41,460 they'd rather have it delivered. I don't understand the mechanism 1715 01:50:41,460 --> 01:50:44,310 because I like buying stuff online. I use Amazon 1716 01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:46,830 extensively. But I love going to the grocery store to see what's 1717 01:50:46,830 --> 01:50:49,560 fresh to see what I'm going to cook it based on what's 1718 01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:52,620 available, as opposed to just randomly picking something out 1719 01:50:52,620 --> 01:50:56,100 of a recipe book and then having it delivered to me. So I don't I 1720 01:50:56,100 --> 01:50:58,980 don't know why both can't exist in the same sphere 1721 01:50:58,980 --> 01:51:06,000 need to, but they died. Okay, okay, well, way off. Off topic. 1722 01:51:07,410 --> 01:51:09,840 I live right next to Berkeley. As you know, I'm in Oakland, 1723 01:51:10,440 --> 01:51:15,510 about 10 blocks from here, five blocks from here. 10 blocks from 1724 01:51:15,510 --> 01:51:19,320 here is a little tiny grocery store, truly a mom and pop 1725 01:51:19,320 --> 01:51:22,710 grocery store called Star market. It's been there since 1726 01:51:22,710 --> 01:51:25,830 the 1920s. During the Depression, the owner of the 1727 01:51:25,830 --> 01:51:28,860 store gave up credit to local neighbors so they could get 1728 01:51:28,860 --> 01:51:31,680 through the Depression old fashioned, very old fashioned, 1729 01:51:31,710 --> 01:51:36,750 that man's grand son still runs the same grocery store. And the 1730 01:51:36,750 --> 01:51:41,010 prices are probably 20% higher than the nearby Safeway that's 1731 01:51:41,010 --> 01:51:46,320 two blocks away, and Safeway sells the same stuff cheaper. 1732 01:51:46,770 --> 01:51:50,760 Well, my wife and I go to the star grocery store, we have for 1733 01:51:50,760 --> 01:51:55,320 30 years, we will always and we know the owner, we know the 1734 01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:59,340 checkout clerks, we know who's who we get together. There's 1735 01:52:00,270 --> 01:52:05,280 friends of ours that we talk with there. We can. It's a 1736 01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:10,650 meeting hall, in the way that the safe way isn't in a safe way 1737 01:52:10,650 --> 01:52:15,810 instead of meaningful. Having goods delivered to my doorstep 1738 01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:19,200 certainly is not. You don't even see the person who drops the 1739 01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:24,870 stuff off. If I want a rich community, or I know the people 1740 01:52:24,870 --> 01:52:28,830 around me, and I'm invested in them, and they're invested in 1741 01:52:28,830 --> 01:52:33,900 me, necessarily, I'm going to have to go out meet them 1742 01:52:33,900 --> 01:52:40,890 someplace at times. I did not understand that. 2030 years ago, 1743 01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:47,160 that this really was a really rather silly, rare thing to ask 1744 01:52:47,160 --> 01:52:53,070 of people. People can you hey, I'd rather save, save money. And 1745 01:52:53,070 --> 01:52:56,040 especially I'd rather have it delivered to my door rather than 1746 01:52:56,640 --> 01:53:01,320 go out and walk along and Island. Yeah, pick things. Off 1747 01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:07,140 grocery start off grocery shopping. Yeah, I was wrong. But 1748 01:53:07,470 --> 01:53:09,150 boy, was I wrong. And 1749 01:53:10,470 --> 01:53:17,100 you can get I was. The wrongness of it is always is always a 1750 01:53:17,100 --> 01:53:21,390 variable. And what I mean by that is that if if it wasn't for 1751 01:53:21,390 --> 01:53:28,470 Amazon, and the genius of Jeff Bezos insane genius, you don't 1752 01:53:28,470 --> 01:53:30,780 know that it wouldn't have caught on. I mean, the 1753 01:53:30,780 --> 01:53:33,750 difference is structures were there for it to go either with 1754 01:53:33,870 --> 01:53:36,090 sure just alive knows, because I've been writing about 1755 01:53:36,090 --> 01:53:37,440 technologies efficiency. 1756 01:53:37,860 --> 01:53:43,260 Economic efficiency is a powerful, powerful engine. And 1757 01:53:43,950 --> 01:53:49,470 online. Online ordering and personal delivery is damned 1758 01:53:49,470 --> 01:53:55,710 efficient, and more power to it turns. At the same time. I am 1759 01:53:55,710 --> 01:54:02,790 rather I guess I live in a quaint world. And I'm never 1760 01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:04,440 looking around. 1761 01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:08,370 So quaint. What are you looking across? 1762 01:54:08,490 --> 01:54:12,780 Well, what I see often will also some old wallpaper that seems to 1763 01:54:12,780 --> 01:54:16,590 have been from the 1920s the original wallpaper. Yes, yeah. 1764 01:54:16,650 --> 01:54:20,490 And it's yellowed, but it's quite attractive. I kind of like 1765 01:54:20,490 --> 01:54:21,600 wallpaper in general 1766 01:54:21,630 --> 01:54:27,390 people. Yeah, it's a bit Oh, that's the house when it was. 1767 01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:32,850 Yeah. What was built in this guy right there. He's a member of 1768 01:54:32,850 --> 01:54:35,790 the wobblies, the International Workers of the World. 1769 01:54:36,270 --> 01:54:38,940 Oh, yeah. Remember that group? Yeah. Yeah. And 1770 01:54:39,780 --> 01:54:44,340 bout, okay. Okay. Don't broadcast 1771 01:54:44,370 --> 01:54:47,820 shop though. There's gonna be going out for sure. seems silly. 1772 01:54:47,850 --> 01:54:48,450 Oh, that's a 1773 01:54:48,480 --> 01:54:54,900 story to tell you. So about 3035 years ago. 1984. So, I'm in 1774 01:54:54,900 --> 01:54:59,970 Berkeley and I'm working up at callate the the physics 1775 01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:03,090 apartment and I'm bicycle by this house and house sign in the 1776 01:55:03,090 --> 01:55:06,450 House says this is for sale this house Oh great your house for 1777 01:55:06,450 --> 01:55:09,300 sale by owner so I walk in there's 100 people crowded in 1778 01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:15,120 house costs costs a fortune. I walk out and say No way. I'm not 1779 01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:18,750 gonna buy a house like this. Don't think anything of it. Next 1780 01:55:18,750 --> 01:55:21,360 day bicycle buy there's a guy sitting on his porch looking 1781 01:55:21,360 --> 01:55:25,200 over papers and I yell out to the guy. Hey, Mister, did you 1782 01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:30,270 sell your house? Guy yields back? Yeah, sold. Take it off my 1783 01:55:30,270 --> 01:55:35,850 bike, go walk up to him start talking. says hey, I sold three 1784 01:55:35,850 --> 01:55:39,810 offers. say well, what do you do? He says, Oh, I'm a laborer. 1785 01:55:39,810 --> 01:55:43,080 Larry, say you're a labor lawyer. Do you know about the I 1786 01:55:43,080 --> 01:55:47,550 WW your actual workers world? He says boy do I? I'm reading a 1787 01:55:47,550 --> 01:55:53,190 book about it. Really? I say Tell him you must know songs of 1788 01:55:53,490 --> 01:55:58,230 Mr. Block. He says I sure do. And he starts going, Oh, Mr. 1789 01:55:58,230 --> 01:56:02,430 Block, you were born by mistake. You take the cake. You make the 1790 01:56:02,430 --> 01:56:07,680 egg. So I joined and I take the next verse. He takes this verse. 1791 01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:12,480 We're seeing all these old labor organizing songs from the 1910s 1792 01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:15,870 to each other. Yeah. And it's going back and forth. Padley and 1793 01:56:15,870 --> 01:56:18,870 we're talking about the International Workers a world 1794 01:56:18,870 --> 01:56:23,340 there, keep them who they love. And half an hour hour goes by I 1795 01:56:23,340 --> 01:56:27,690 said, Geez, I gotta get to Cali. I'm a postdoc. I gotta get in. 1796 01:56:27,690 --> 01:56:32,040 The guy says to me, you can't go yet. You got to buy my house. I 1797 01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:36,240 think Come on. No, seriously. He says, No, I want you to buy this 1798 01:56:36,240 --> 01:56:41,190 house. I say first you got three offers. Second. I can't afford 1799 01:56:41,190 --> 01:56:44,430 it. I'm just a postdoc. They don't pay me nothing. Third, I 1800 01:56:44,430 --> 01:56:47,910 got an apartment downtown Oakland cheap. He says, The 1801 01:56:47,910 --> 01:56:51,420 House likes you. Everybody else who wants to buy it as an 1802 01:56:51,420 --> 01:56:57,540 investor? I say okay, I'll buy it. pay you whatever. anybody 1803 01:56:57,540 --> 01:57:04,410 else's thesis, shakes my hand said sold $160,000. I say, Yeah, 1804 01:57:04,410 --> 01:57:08,280 but look, I ain't got that kind of bread. He says, I don't care. 1805 01:57:09,030 --> 01:57:11,520 I like you. True story. 1806 01:57:11,550 --> 01:57:15,480 So what was the year that distant 1883 84? 1807 01:57:16,740 --> 01:57:19,710 The guy says, so we go around this guy's mortgage broker and 1808 01:57:19,860 --> 01:57:24,510 he laughs at me. A postdoc in physics at Lawrence Berkeley 1809 01:57:24,510 --> 01:57:28,740 Labs. They say yeah, they pay me 20,000 22,000 a year. He says, 1810 01:57:29,100 --> 01:57:32,040 You're gonna have to make 35 36,000 to afford that kind of 1811 01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:36,420 mortgage. Please. Well, that's my boss. My boss guy named Louie 1812 01:57:36,420 --> 01:57:39,180 Alvarez. He thought Nobel Prize winner famous. Yeah. So you 1813 01:57:39,180 --> 01:57:42,360 know, Louis? Yeah, I went to Cal Yes. So I go to Louis and say 1814 01:57:42,360 --> 01:57:46,680 hey, you know, I want to buy a house. Gotta make 35,000 Didn't 1815 01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:51,660 crumble you. You're never a copy ad or son on air. I want 35 top 1816 01:57:51,660 --> 01:57:55,230 dog for a skirt or up okay, for next six months here. Get this 1817 01:57:55,230 --> 01:57:59,370 paper site. So give me a reason as a research associate for 35 1818 01:57:59,370 --> 01:58:03,780 grand. Like get this thing sign. Show it to the mortgage brokers 1819 01:58:03,780 --> 01:58:06,960 mortgage Pro. It looks at CES. You work for Louie Louie 1820 01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:13,050 Alvarez. Wow. He says, oh, yeah, you got enough money for now he 1821 01:58:13,050 --> 01:58:18,060 steps things we dive bicycle over to a bank. Look. Three 1822 01:58:18,060 --> 01:58:22,140 months later, I own this house. I've never had it inspected. I 1823 01:58:22,140 --> 01:58:25,050 don't even know how many bedrooms there are in it. I 1824 01:58:25,050 --> 01:58:28,470 don't know other than being ripped off. All I know, is the 1825 01:58:28,470 --> 01:58:32,490 guy who's selling it and his wife are labor lawyers. And 1826 01:58:32,490 --> 01:58:40,290 they're really friendly. And that and so I move in. And the 1827 01:58:40,290 --> 01:58:45,900 guy was right. The house liked me. And I liked the house. And 1828 01:58:45,900 --> 01:58:50,250 so that's what you see here. That's the original of the house 1829 01:58:50,250 --> 01:58:52,080 very little embroidery in that story. 1830 01:58:53,580 --> 01:58:57,330 Well, these things happen. Yep. That is actually pretty funny 1831 01:58:57,330 --> 01:58:58,470 story. And it's 1832 01:58:58,530 --> 01:59:03,240 it's sort of if I had done it the right way talking to real 1833 01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:03,570 estate 1834 01:59:04,470 --> 01:59:06,450 in the house that like Yeah. 1835 01:59:08,670 --> 01:59:11,850 And who is saying this is the way to do things, it's 1836 01:59:11,910 --> 01:59:16,410 it but it works. It's sometimes worked since you were up at that 1837 01:59:16,440 --> 01:59:20,850 do one of the guys up there one of the just as an aside one of 1838 01:59:20,850 --> 01:59:25,110 the researchers physicists up at the at the lab, and I don't 1839 01:59:25,110 --> 01:59:27,930 can't remember which one it is but he's got this theory that he 1840 01:59:27,930 --> 01:59:31,920 brings out once in a while that the earth is on a collision 1841 01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:36,450 course every something like $70 million is in molar Yep, rich 1842 01:59:36,450 --> 01:59:39,390 mode. It goes through the asteroids and it gets kills off 1843 01:59:39,390 --> 01:59:41,010 every nemesis. Yeah, Rich. Well, 1844 01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:45,360 he's he sharp He in fact, he was one of Louis students. Riches 1845 01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,360 still up there. I'm sure I haven't seen him in three or 1846 01:59:48,360 --> 01:59:50,550 four years but he's, you 1847 01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:53,250 love to sit down, chat with him. 1848 01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:55,320 Just get a hold just about that. 1849 01:59:55,950 --> 02:00:00,420 He did theory it makes nothing but sense and it seems to be You 1850 02:00:00,420 --> 02:00:04,440 can't it's almost it's unprovable. But but the wipeouts 1851 02:00:04,500 --> 02:00:04,800 the 1852 02:00:04,830 --> 02:00:09,540 Yeah, yeah, the historic record going back millions of years 1853 02:00:09,540 --> 02:00:10,470 seemed to indicate 1854 02:00:10,500 --> 02:00:16,080 rich Mahler of nemesis. In fact, Rich was one of the guys who 1855 02:00:17,100 --> 02:00:24,270 figured out after Louis and Walter Alvarez figured that it 1856 02:00:24,270 --> 02:00:27,390 was a giant meteor that hit the Earth wiped out the dinosaurs. 1857 02:00:27,660 --> 02:00:31,530 Rich was one of the people figured out what happened. Oh, 1858 02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:36,960 enough, crud was put in the air. Right that we had a climate 1859 02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:39,600 change for a few 100 years. That's what killed the 1860 02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:41,100 dinosaurs. Yeah, like they were hit by 1861 02:00:41,580 --> 02:00:46,860 the vegetation. Yep. These guys needed big plants. Yeah, yeah. 1862 02:00:46,889 --> 02:00:50,819 Yep. And, and suddenly, things turned cold because sunlight 1863 02:00:50,819 --> 02:00:55,499 wasn't getting down. So it was working with people like that 1864 02:00:55,499 --> 02:01:00,959 was such a joy. It was up. I'd say Don't get me started. But 1865 02:01:00,989 --> 02:01:01,709 yeah, that's how I. 1866 02:01:03,390 --> 02:01:07,050 Yeah, yeah. Well, that group is all around you. Yeah, I was 1867 02:01:07,080 --> 02:01:09,900 like, as a matter of what we're doing account, I was a history 1868 02:01:09,900 --> 02:01:13,560 student with whom? Well, candidate stamp was 1869 02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:17,490 just read his book on the Civil War, not which one right over 1870 02:01:17,490 --> 02:01:19,080 there the one of the causes of the Civil War, 1871 02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:24,750 they've always got that seven or 10 essays. Just read a very, 1872 02:01:24,780 --> 02:01:25,590 very good book. 1873 02:01:25,620 --> 02:01:30,360 Yeah, this guy right here. Just just reread it two nights ago. 1874 02:01:30,450 --> 02:01:34,350 Yeah. Oh, I read this book. I mean, the guy's smart. just 1875 02:01:34,380 --> 02:01:39,180 collecting, you know, he has a Marxist revisionist view of why 1876 02:01:39,180 --> 02:01:42,720 was there a civil war? He has? A little 1877 02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:46,080 bit. I think the whole department somewhat like that. 1878 02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:46,530 But 1879 02:01:47,160 --> 02:01:50,010 it really, yeah, he was my counselor. 1880 02:01:53,220 --> 02:01:56,310 Every time I tell people that they go, what, who. And the 1881 02:01:56,310 --> 02:02:00,270 thing was, he was a very funny guy, because he, he's a rubber 1882 02:02:00,270 --> 02:02:03,630 stamp counselor for one thing, and he looked over what you're 1883 02:02:03,630 --> 02:02:07,350 doing. And he's very casual, very, he's very funny. I never 1884 02:02:07,350 --> 02:02:10,470 took I don't believe I took a course from him. I took a course 1885 02:02:10,470 --> 02:02:15,480 from May and went to Jordan and some of the other hot shots. But 1886 02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:19,200 it was always funny to have him as, as the guy who was because 1887 02:02:19,200 --> 02:02:20,190 it's very impressive. This 1888 02:02:20,190 --> 02:02:23,220 reflects back to what I was trying to say earlier, that I'm 1889 02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:29,700 no good at saying it. I'm, I believe that the ability to read 1890 02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:38,310 in and review history is damned important. And allows us maybe 1891 02:02:38,310 --> 02:02:42,450 not to learn from the stakes, but at least to better interpret 1892 02:02:42,480 --> 02:02:46,440 what's going on in current events. And one of the things 1893 02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:49,740 that I'm saddened about in schools today is that they don't 1894 02:02:49,740 --> 02:02:54,240 know anything. Well, they're not history is considered, oh, we'll 1895 02:02:54,240 --> 02:02:58,470 teach you the following facts rather than just Yeah, rather 1896 02:02:58,470 --> 02:03:02,610 than, Oh, there's five ways to interpret what happened here. 1897 02:03:03,870 --> 02:03:08,700 This book is the best 50 ways to interpret the Civil War. Yeah, 1898 02:03:08,790 --> 02:03:14,760 it's a superb example of why Why saying, Oh, the Civil War was 1899 02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:18,720 caused by slavery. Oh, a lot of people say that. A lot of people 1900 02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:22,380 say no, it was caused by economic forces. Others Oh, no, 1901 02:03:22,380 --> 02:03:25,710 it was caused by birth. But it was inevitable given the Marxist 1902 02:03:25,710 --> 02:03:33,750 model. I'm like, Ken, I love computing. I love programming. I 1903 02:03:33,750 --> 02:03:39,150 love technology. But I also like, appreciate and admire 1904 02:03:39,150 --> 02:03:42,540 critical thought. And I don't see enough of that being 1905 02:03:42,540 --> 02:03:49,320 promoted. It's a reason why I think history especially needs 1906 02:03:49,380 --> 02:03:52,950 not just to be taught, but needs to be appreciated. That's the 1907 02:03:52,950 --> 02:03:53,580 hard part. 1908 02:03:55,350 --> 02:03:58,770 Saying you have to find enthusiastic teachers that can 1909 02:03:58,770 --> 02:04:04,860 teach it to people who know that they will like it that you have 1910 02:04:04,860 --> 02:04:08,010 to people don't know, you know, it's like the good marketing is 1911 02:04:08,010 --> 02:04:10,320 what they always said about Steve Jobs. He says he doesn't 1912 02:04:10,320 --> 02:04:14,220 study the market. He tries to guess what people don't know 1913 02:04:14,220 --> 02:04:17,640 they're going to like, because if you ask somebody, would you 1914 02:04:17,640 --> 02:04:20,190 what would you buy? This is brand new? And you'd say, I 1915 02:04:20,190 --> 02:04:23,310 don't know. I don't think so. This is weird. Yeah. But if you 1916 02:04:23,310 --> 02:04:27,300 could show someone you know, you get them to as well try it. You 1917 02:04:27,300 --> 02:04:30,510 get them to start using things and get them to go on it and 1918 02:04:30,510 --> 02:04:32,640 start thinking differently then all of a sudden, it becomes a 1919 02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:35,190 huge thing that would have never been predicted there. If you 1920 02:04:35,190 --> 02:04:38,730 remember the Xerox machine with a first copying machines, they 1921 02:04:38,730 --> 02:04:41,760 studied it. They said nobody wants these machines because 1922 02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:45,870 nobody wants to make copies. They've said the same thing with 1923 02:04:45,870 --> 02:04:48,690 the with database managed nobody wants these things because 1924 02:04:48,690 --> 02:04:51,960 Kodak in the digital image, sort of sympathetic 1925 02:04:51,960 --> 02:04:52,560 story. 1926 02:04:53,010 --> 02:04:57,360 Rochester invented it. Yeah, yeah. And more than invented it. 1927 02:04:57,390 --> 02:05:00,870 They promoted it within a very small community. thinking, Oh, 1928 02:05:00,870 --> 02:05:04,140 if we keep the secret over here, we'll be able to keep this cash 1929 02:05:04,140 --> 02:05:06,960 cow running Host. Yeah, but it's a, 1930 02:05:07,320 --> 02:05:10,530 but people don't appreciate it history because they're not kind 1931 02:05:10,530 --> 02:05:13,530 of convinced. Or they're not. There's the enthusiasm. It's 1932 02:05:13,530 --> 02:05:17,820 different. This time, it'll be different. We're not gonna make 1933 02:05:17,820 --> 02:05:20,190 the same mistake, you know, Cassandra keeps walking out 1934 02:05:20,190 --> 02:05:24,660 saying, Oh, no, no, no, no bad things are gonna happen and go 1935 02:05:24,660 --> 02:05:27,390 away. Cassandra, you bother me. We're gonna we'll do it the 1936 02:05:27,390 --> 02:05:28,170 right way this time? 1937 02:05:28,740 --> 02:05:31,140 Well, it's never done the right way. That's the problem ever. 1938 02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:38,640 Of course, so. So can stamp. Just absolutely cool. 1939 02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:44,490 Yeah. He was the he was he is the most brilliant of the 1940 02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:48,810 analysts of the Civil War when it comes to causation. Everybody 1941 02:05:48,810 --> 02:05:52,200 else discusses various aspects, but causation is still up in the 1942 02:05:52,200 --> 02:05:55,440 air and there's been like it, I think you're right. They are not 1943 02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:58,770 just slavery. So none of these, then there's some wacky things 1944 02:05:58,770 --> 02:06:00,990 in this particular book. There's one or two of these things that 1945 02:06:00,990 --> 02:06:03,840 are just like what I can't remember offhand. But I do 1946 02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:04,290 remember 1947 02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,200 enormous and this is why 40 years old to get his 1948 02:06:07,200 --> 02:06:10,830 book. And his book we're talking about is the causes of the Civil 1949 02:06:10,830 --> 02:06:16,050 War. Edited by Canada stamp is a bunch of essays, including 1950 02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:18,810 Lincoln's and Jefferson Davis, Frederick Douglass, and a whole 1951 02:06:18,810 --> 02:06:20,940 bunch of crazy off the wall stuff. 1952 02:06:21,900 --> 02:06:26,460 And, and there, and the interviewer studied under this 1953 02:06:26,460 --> 02:06:36,060 guy can stamp which impresses the hell out of me. Wow. That's 1954 02:06:36,060 --> 02:06:40,200 perfectly for you. Similar, similar feelings of 1955 02:06:40,230 --> 02:06:42,810 Yeah, well, you're working with Louie Alvarez for guy. I mean, 1956 02:06:42,900 --> 02:06:47,580 those other guys. There's a lot of famous people Seaborg 1957 02:06:47,610 --> 02:06:52,890 but it was all your work with these people and what it was 1958 02:06:52,890 --> 02:06:57,930 like midnight, I was writing code. midnight or so. Louie 1959 02:06:57,930 --> 02:07:00,360 walks in the door and said, What are you working on kid and I'm 1960 02:07:00,360 --> 02:07:03,600 saying, Well, I'm work writing computer code. What's it for? 1961 02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:09,270 It's 1130 midnight or so? Um, you know, writing was he that 1962 02:07:09,270 --> 02:07:14,070 Gruffalo. He was gruff, gruff, to those who he felt needed 1963 02:07:14,070 --> 02:07:16,320 gruffness. And if you didn't know you, well, you got 1964 02:07:16,320 --> 02:07:19,320 gruffness from him. You tried to be a son of a bitch, but he 1965 02:07:19,320 --> 02:07:22,140 wasn't very good son of bitches turned out to be not a nice guy. 1966 02:07:22,500 --> 02:07:26,310 But I said, Well, I'm working on reading code. What's that code? 1967 02:07:26,310 --> 02:07:29,580 What's that line? Therefore? I say, Well, I'm working on off 1968 02:07:29,580 --> 02:07:33,090 axes, hyperbolic mirrors for the Keck telescope. Yeah, but what's 1969 02:07:33,090 --> 02:07:36,420 that line for? Well, I'm trying to figure out what the Fourier 1970 02:07:36,420 --> 02:07:40,560 transform is of an off axis hyperboloid. That's a hexagon. 1971 02:07:40,560 --> 02:07:43,500 He says, Well, what's that line for? I say, well, that 1972 02:07:43,530 --> 02:07:46,920 particular line, you're pointing to figures out, you know, what's 1973 02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:50,610 the sine side of the angle of incidence coming out to the 1974 02:07:50,610 --> 02:07:54,330 mirror and blah, blah, blah. Don't explain it. Half an hour 1975 02:07:54,330 --> 02:07:58,500 later. He says, Okay, keep going. Okay. See you tomorrow. 1976 02:07:59,850 --> 02:08:05,940 It was like, it was like, I had to explain town. He needed to 1977 02:08:05,940 --> 02:08:11,400 understand down at the grain of sand level. Yeah. And if I could 1978 02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:15,510 do that, if I could actually explain it that level. He was he 1979 02:08:15,510 --> 02:08:19,320 felt I was okay. And I was able to, so I was okay in his mind. 1980 02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:23,790 And he so he didn't put up with bullshitters 1981 02:08:24,150 --> 02:08:29,640 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you got nowhere few. Every Friday at his 1982 02:08:29,640 --> 02:08:34,170 house, there was a Friday meeting at his house of physics 1983 02:08:34,170 --> 02:08:41,580 jocks. And it was scary stuff. You were you got in front of two 1984 02:08:41,580 --> 02:08:44,790 dozen physicists, all of whom were up for blood, you better be 1985 02:08:44,790 --> 02:08:49,920 able to defend yourself. And I just caught a computer hacker 1986 02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:52,980 who is breaking into our Unix boxes, right? This was your 1987 02:08:53,430 --> 02:08:57,360 this is your cuckoos. Yeah, the book what was the full title? 1988 02:08:57,450 --> 02:08:59,430 cuckoo's egg stalking the wily hackers? 1989 02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:02,460 You invented forensic computing? 1990 02:09:02,519 --> 02:09:05,819 Yeah, yeah, it was the first. Yeah. So anyway, so I go to 1991 02:09:05,969 --> 02:09:10,799 Lewis house to do a talk. And I start talking about this. And it 1992 02:09:10,799 --> 02:09:17,039 was the first time that I ever had to explain what it means to 1993 02:09:17,039 --> 02:09:20,999 break into a computer. I had to explain what is the ARPANET? 1994 02:09:21,029 --> 02:09:25,289 What is the Internet Protocol, what's TCP? And I had to explain 1995 02:09:25,289 --> 02:09:28,919 it from the register stack, all the way up to the highest level 1996 02:09:28,919 --> 02:09:32,579 what you know, how does the email work and how do you? What 1997 02:09:32,579 --> 02:09:38,969 year was this? This was 1986. And doing this in front of 1998 02:09:38,969 --> 02:09:42,959 Louis, I mean, then the rest of the gang It was scary stuff. 1999 02:09:43,289 --> 02:09:48,119 Because not because you don't know it. It's because you're in 2000 02:09:48,119 --> 02:09:53,579 front of you're in front of the real examination group. And I 2001 02:09:53,579 --> 02:09:57,149 passed, you know, people said are flying colors, no problem at 2002 02:09:57,149 --> 02:10:01,079 all. You. You showed the old man your stuff you You did okay. And 2003 02:10:01,079 --> 02:10:02,459 that was enough for me. That's 2004 02:10:03,510 --> 02:10:06,060 that I became a best selling book, there was a 2005 02:10:06,990 --> 02:10:11,610 became best selling book, it gave me the license to do stupid 2006 02:10:11,610 --> 02:10:14,400 things. And I've done plenty of stupid things with that 2007 02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:23,100 licensing, mathematical modeling, but the I'm, it's time 2008 02:10:23,100 --> 02:10:27,000 for other people to be doing cool things. I'm sort of 2009 02:10:27,210 --> 02:10:30,300 seeing anybody out there doing cool things. Oh, yeah, I 2010 02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:37,260 met some people doing 3d printing of, of completely 2011 02:10:37,260 --> 02:10:41,220 bizarre mathematical shapes. And I'm saying, Wow, real neat to 2012 02:10:41,220 --> 02:10:47,610 see people taking weird fractal images, poking them into into 2013 02:10:47,610 --> 02:10:53,370 plastic. I'm seeing people do. Of course, some cool things that 2014 02:10:53,370 --> 02:10:59,790 I've bumped into this. A guy that I know who's working on the 2015 02:11:00,090 --> 02:11:06,540 collision frequency in planetary rings, and modeling it in a 2016 02:11:06,540 --> 02:11:11,550 computer in a most creative way, using Markov chain, stuff like 2017 02:11:11,550 --> 02:11:17,850 this. Just stuff that I know that, Oh, I see somebody doing 2018 02:11:17,850 --> 02:11:20,310 it so much better than the way I would do it. And I'm saying, 2019 02:11:20,340 --> 02:11:25,020 Wow, very pleasant. Very nice. And then there's lots and lots 2020 02:11:25,020 --> 02:11:28,230 of pedestrian stuff, just like when we're in at Berkeley. 2021 02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:33,600 There's people who waste their time saying, Oh, I got to level 2022 02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:38,550 up to level 17 in this big deal. So that which is where we 2023 02:11:38,550 --> 02:11:45,570 started talking to begin with. It's well, I guess I'm not 2024 02:11:45,570 --> 02:11:50,190 cynical thing. Oh, get off my grass. I did all this great 2025 02:11:50,190 --> 02:11:55,230 stuff. Nobody will ever know if people. I'm thoroughly impressed 2026 02:11:55,230 --> 02:11:59,160 with some of the stuff that I see happening in computer 2027 02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:04,260 security. I regularly follow? Don't you kept up? I've kept up 2028 02:12:04,290 --> 02:12:11,970 and I'm, I'm really impressed with how forensics people, you 2029 02:12:11,970 --> 02:12:17,790 know, people unwind digital attacks, and confined signatures 2030 02:12:17,850 --> 02:12:21,660 of just who what group? Was it that did this? Yeah. How are 2031 02:12:21,660 --> 02:12:24,900 they hiding? How are they pushing things around? And it 2032 02:12:25,170 --> 02:12:30,720 impresses the hell out of me. I'm impressed with companies 2033 02:12:30,720 --> 02:12:38,970 that are organized to let let their computer jocks just watch 2034 02:12:38,970 --> 02:12:43,410 to see what the traffic is. And see what's weird at unwind it 2035 02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:50,430 really impressed? I'm impressed with. Frankly, I'm impressed 2036 02:12:50,430 --> 02:12:58,110 with the security systems that are growing up in places in our 2037 02:12:58,140 --> 02:13:03,150 modern operating systems. Security, itself is being pushed 2038 02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:06,270 sort of further and further to the left in the development 2039 02:13:06,270 --> 02:13:11,250 charts. It used to be Oh, tell me a problem. And we'll patch 2040 02:13:11,250 --> 02:13:15,420 it. But build insecurity bake it into an operating system? Not 2041 02:13:15,420 --> 02:13:18,630 now. That's not for us. We got to we got to make meet this 2042 02:13:18,630 --> 02:13:22,470 deadline. Important. Yeah, security will become important. 2043 02:13:22,470 --> 02:13:25,560 If so you tell us you got a problem? Tell we'll fix it. 2044 02:13:25,950 --> 02:13:33,270 Increasingly, it's OH, security is a spec at the beginning. And 2045 02:13:34,110 --> 02:13:41,310 and you don't start writing code without having first baked it in 2046 02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:46,830 at the start very impressed. If 2047 02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:51,510 anything is specific, anything specific that you did, that 2048 02:13:52,110 --> 02:13:53,070 catches your eye? 2049 02:13:54,480 --> 02:14:01,050 I'm seeing by kick, can I I'm seeing a major company in 2050 02:14:01,050 --> 02:14:08,700 Silicon Valley. Essentially, freeze releases, that freeze 2051 02:14:08,700 --> 02:14:16,080 releases, but make semi major releases that do nothing but 2052 02:14:16,080 --> 02:14:19,800 more deeply addressed security problems. Which to me is 2053 02:14:19,800 --> 02:14:24,510 astonishing. In other words, a major release coming out that 2054 02:14:24,660 --> 02:14:28,590 does look adds almost no features, but just makes the 2055 02:14:28,590 --> 02:14:35,220 whole thing more solid. I'm delighted I'm impressed. I'm 2056 02:14:35,220 --> 02:14:42,870 seeing the I'm seeing less and less reliance on passwords, more 2057 02:14:43,650 --> 02:14:47,880 double factor authentication. I'm seeing good things in that 2058 02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:53,820 direction. enormous popularity of capture the flag and even 2059 02:14:53,820 --> 02:15:00,000 lock picking amongst computer security people just take 2060 02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:04,440 colspan I just just have big smiles when I see this happening 2061 02:15:04,500 --> 02:15:05,550 there's we have 2062 02:15:05,550 --> 02:15:09,360 a number of listeners our podcasts who are technical to 2063 02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:12,210 say the least but a lot of penetration tech testers pen 2064 02:15:12,210 --> 02:15:15,900 testing. I hear the stories from them. There's fascinating it is 2065 02:15:15,900 --> 02:15:18,180 a point where some of them actually have to break into the 2066 02:15:18,180 --> 02:15:22,740 facility. Yeah. Oh yeah. Tutor and puts up man and see what 2067 02:15:22,740 --> 02:15:24,180 happens a smile 2068 02:15:24,180 --> 02:15:29,250 to me that once upon a time there once upon a time, the 2069 02:15:29,250 --> 02:15:34,890 stuff didn't exist. And now it's, it's in one sense again, 2070 02:15:34,890 --> 02:15:39,000 to to people to others. It's, oh, I'm actually going to break 2071 02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:43,170 in and leave leave a little poop for somebody and see if they 2072 02:15:43,170 --> 02:15:47,610 stumble across it. Still others I know a friend of mine that a 2073 02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:49,950 computer security get together showed me how to repin all the 2074 02:15:49,950 --> 02:15:54,330 locks in my house. And it's not though known how to do it before 2075 02:15:54,330 --> 02:15:57,420 we lose that oh, you show me I'll do master and sub master 2076 02:15:57,420 --> 02:16:03,960 insurance loop now. Mastering sub mastering on my league lock 2077 02:16:03,960 --> 02:16:06,780 on my front door. Big deal. You know, somebody from your podcast 2078 02:16:06,780 --> 02:16:13,710 will probably come by and pick it now. It's, it's, I'm tickled 2079 02:16:13,710 --> 02:16:16,380 to see this happening. It's like yeah. Oh, 2080 02:16:16,410 --> 02:16:18,150 do you do any work in the field anymore? 2081 02:16:18,180 --> 02:16:24,150 No. I speak occasionally, of in a most embarrassing way for me 2082 02:16:24,150 --> 02:16:29,820 to talk about computer security. It's like inviting. It's like, 2083 02:16:30,060 --> 02:16:35,490 inviting Dwight Eisenhower to talk about politics. I know I've 2084 02:16:35,520 --> 02:16:45,150 I'm old hat. Old school. I felt long ago that the network the 2085 02:16:45,210 --> 02:16:49,350 ARPANET, which evolved into the internet really was a an 2086 02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:53,880 academic playground for fooling around and having a sending 2087 02:16:53,880 --> 02:16:57,030 email, you didn't have to put a stamp on a letter, you could 2088 02:16:57,030 --> 02:16:59,820 send email it would get across the country in the same day, 2089 02:16:59,940 --> 02:17:05,190 sometimes within the next few minutes. And right now. The 2090 02:17:05,190 --> 02:17:10,560 academic playground soon became commercialized, became a 2091 02:17:10,590 --> 02:17:15,510 playground for people to develop cool things, and for a few 2092 02:17:15,510 --> 02:17:20,010 people to make bad things happen. The development of 2093 02:17:20,010 --> 02:17:26,850 malware leaves me not very happy. The use of computer 2094 02:17:26,880 --> 02:17:31,710 computing as an intermediary between peace and war leaves me 2095 02:17:31,710 --> 02:17:38,250 very cold. I'm very sad at what I see happening. Using going 2096 02:17:38,250 --> 02:17:43,470 back to the stuck Stuxnet days where computers were weaponized 2097 02:17:43,830 --> 02:17:50,160 as a to promote political points of view. And now that what 2098 02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:57,510 happened in the 2016 elections leaves me really cold that theft 2099 02:17:57,510 --> 02:18:04,860 of information online, is used to cause to bend elections. 2100 02:18:05,310 --> 02:18:12,900 It's, I find it very upsetting. But then he I'm, it's not. This 2101 02:18:12,900 --> 02:18:14,730 ain't my world anymore. I sure. 2102 02:18:17,820 --> 02:18:19,230 Well, that's not going to end. 2103 02:18:19,559 --> 02:18:21,659 Yeah, it's going to get worse. Yeah, it's gonna, 2104 02:18:22,290 --> 02:18:23,730 it's gonna get worse with the 2105 02:18:23,730 --> 02:18:28,350 one minor thing that I'm observing. And I hope that the 2106 02:18:28,350 --> 02:18:32,910 people who are listening to your podcast who are really tuned 2107 02:18:32,910 --> 02:18:37,890 into computer security, I hope they'll say, Yeah, you know, you 2108 02:18:37,890 --> 02:18:41,850 have a good point there. Maybe I have a bad point here. I think 2109 02:18:42,090 --> 02:18:47,910 that OSS, and widely deployed applications are becoming more 2110 02:18:47,910 --> 02:18:54,210 secure. There are more people working to detect problems and 2111 02:18:54,210 --> 02:18:58,200 fix them than there ever has been before. That gives me hope. 2112 02:18:58,590 --> 02:19:03,900 It means that it's, I hope, in the long run, going to be more 2113 02:19:03,960 --> 02:19:12,840 difficult to steal credentials to to pose as somebody else. The 2114 02:19:12,840 --> 02:19:15,480 spread of false information, I think will always be a 2115 02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:22,530 challenge. But the theft and manipulation of information, I 2116 02:19:22,530 --> 02:19:26,460 hope will become increasingly difficult, maybe of all wrong. 2117 02:19:26,730 --> 02:19:29,670 Well, how about this, you know, you do have an issue with the 2118 02:19:29,700 --> 02:19:34,260 people who are the computer users that are ignorant. And for 2119 02:19:34,260 --> 02:19:36,990 example, you talked about the stolen data that Podesta data 2120 02:19:36,990 --> 02:19:40,830 was stolen on a phishing attack. Some click on this boom, this 2121 02:19:40,830 --> 02:19:46,110 whole thing's done. Is that that that seems to be the be the 2122 02:19:46,230 --> 02:19:47,970 bottleneck here the 2123 02:19:48,570 --> 02:19:53,340 ignorance of surely yet at the same time, two factor 2124 02:19:53,340 --> 02:20:01,020 authentication, quality crypto being used. That requires Oh Oh, 2125 02:20:01,050 --> 02:20:08,820 I have to use facial recognition and a fingerprint to to only get 2126 02:20:08,940 --> 02:20:16,410 into one email. I hope that with time fishing will become less 2127 02:20:16,410 --> 02:20:21,810 and less effective. Just as people as people become better 2128 02:20:21,810 --> 02:20:25,260 at something I was going to mention that I've been thinking 2129 02:20:25,260 --> 02:20:30,630 about, and you probably can say this better than I can. I've 2130 02:20:30,630 --> 02:20:35,130 been thinking that what happened to the fax machine? Remember the 2131 02:20:35,130 --> 02:20:36,210 fax machine or the 2132 02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:39,000 doctor still use them so to pharmacies? 2133 02:20:39,330 --> 02:20:44,790 What killed the fax? Well, my theory is, we don't have any 2134 02:20:44,790 --> 02:20:48,150 faxes, not because they didn't work. Well, they were great. Not 2135 02:20:48,150 --> 02:20:50,850 because they were expensive. They were cheap. What killed the 2136 02:20:50,850 --> 02:20:55,890 fax was the exploitation of the fax machine by fraudsters in 2137 02:20:55,890 --> 02:21:00,900 places like fax.com. That just bombarded people's fax machines 2138 02:21:00,930 --> 02:21:05,430 with crane the paper? Yep, yep, drained the paper and used until 2139 02:21:05,430 --> 02:21:09,630 finally people said, I don't need the stupid fax. And people 2140 02:21:09,630 --> 02:21:15,720 stopped using it just because it was such an annoyance. My claim 2141 02:21:16,050 --> 02:21:22,050 is, that's what's going to happen to voice telephony that 2142 02:21:22,050 --> 02:21:27,450 people are slowly refusing to answer their telephones. 2143 02:21:27,960 --> 02:21:36,720 Because, hey, there's so much scam. There's so much just Robo 2144 02:21:36,720 --> 02:21:40,710 calling us I believe. And I think what we're going to see 2145 02:21:40,710 --> 02:21:45,210 happen in the long run is people simply say, I'm not going to use 2146 02:21:45,210 --> 02:21:49,470 the phone. If if I don't recognize the person calling me. 2147 02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:53,280 I'm not going to answer it. And what will happen will be the 2148 02:21:53,850 --> 02:21:59,190 telephony, the telephony system that has taken you know, what, 2149 02:21:59,190 --> 02:22:04,200 150 years 130 years to develop? I think it will slowly with her 2150 02:22:05,070 --> 02:22:10,890 in the entire reason being that it's so cheap and easy to scam 2151 02:22:10,920 --> 02:22:15,180 to scam people. Yeah. And through I don't know if I hope 2152 02:22:15,180 --> 02:22:18,750 I'm wrong, or I hope I'm right. But I think that with time 2153 02:22:18,750 --> 02:22:21,930 people become immunized to it and say, Hey, I'm gonna answer 2154 02:22:21,930 --> 02:22:31,050 the phone. And and as things get exploited, people develop 2155 02:22:31,260 --> 02:22:33,180 immunological responses. 2156 02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:37,200 Yeah, stop using right. And a lot of the millennials to this 2157 02:22:37,200 --> 02:22:40,740 day don't use the phone hardly ever. They just text everyday 2158 02:22:40,770 --> 02:22:41,220 texted? 2159 02:22:41,310 --> 02:22:46,050 Sure. And the people who are most exploited are old people, 2160 02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:48,480 because they're accustomed to trusting. 2161 02:22:48,900 --> 02:22:52,320 Oh, well, they're more susceptible to getting scammed. 2162 02:22:52,320 --> 02:22:55,890 Yeah. Yeah, often? Sure. Well, on that note, I think we've got 2163 02:22:55,890 --> 02:22:58,200 enough material here. I think I'm gonna stop 2164 02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:02,280 cursing. Yeah. And I'll show you something cool down here. 2165 02:23:03,240 --> 02:23:08,100 And that was Cliff Stoll in Oakland. I got a lot out of that 2166 02:23:08,100 --> 02:23:11,160 interview. I haven't seen clip for a while. And I thought it 2167 02:23:11,160 --> 02:23:14,130 was fascinating to chat with him like that. And the cool thing 2168 02:23:14,130 --> 02:23:18,030 about him is he's one of those guys who could just talk. Yeah, 2169 02:23:18,030 --> 02:23:20,760 so if you're like to interview people, you don't want to get 2170 02:23:20,760 --> 02:23:24,180 yourself too involved, you know, with your own opinions that 2171 02:23:24,300 --> 02:23:26,850 people don't want to hear us all the time every year. That's 2172 02:23:26,850 --> 02:23:29,610 true. That's true. That's true. So why did they want to hear 2173 02:23:29,640 --> 02:23:33,300 more of me so I Cliff loves to talk so as you could tell, it 2174 02:23:33,300 --> 02:23:35,610 was quite entertaining in every which way. 2175 02:23:35,640 --> 02:23:39,810 I loved it. Thank you for doing that. John. It was extra extra 2176 02:23:39,810 --> 02:23:43,200 curricular activity. For the wedding for the show for 2177 02:23:43,200 --> 02:23:47,520 humanity. Thank gets me out of the house. And it's true. I 2178 02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:51,060 everybody we'll be back next Thursday with a regular episode 2179 02:23:51,060 --> 02:23:53,550 and deconstruction of the best podcast in the universe. And 2180 02:23:53,550 --> 02:23:57,180 remember us at the vortech.org/na We'll have a 2181 02:23:57,180 --> 02:24:00,720 double donations, people to think on the next show. Coming 2182 02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:03,120 to you from Austin, Texas in the morning, everybody. I'm Adam 2183 02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:03,570 curry, 2184 02:24:03,900 --> 02:24:08,010 and from on the road. I'm John C. Dvorak. We return 2185 02:24:08,010 --> 02:24:12,360 on Thursday right here I no agenda until then, as always, I 2186 02:24:12,360 --> 02:24:15,840 do smoke photos and such. 2187 02:24:28,890 --> 02:24:35,820 Oppo boruch.org/and, now everyone can share a secret